Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

[smiths]

My experience is that no matter how much Israel gives they will always want more, they ultimately want it all and want all Jews gone from the region.

even after the map that SLAD has posted you can write lines like this with a straight face

'n the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'

[vanlose kid]

Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.


Now you know how Israel feels.

"Isreal feels"? Or is it "Israel feels"? Israel is a sentient entity?

If Israel, by Zionist definition, is a Jewish state, Israel as an entity would not include Arab "Israelis" normally considered a fifth column threat would it?

I mean by included them you'd have to say Israel doesn't know how it feels, wouldn't you? Or that it feels schizophrenic and is a danger to itself.

What counts as Israel?

Historically the Zionist project was racial, not religious. What counted, and still counts is bloodline. Today it's the Y-chromosome and mitochondric DNA (which is a supposedly more "benign" form of race-science) but still, its a racial parameter.

Which is weird because, by dropping the question of religious identity, if Israelis really followed through on the racial aspect they'd have to accept that Palestinians, or what might strike them as even worse, Arabs are to be counted as Jews. So, taking a remark in a Helen Thomas scandal/indoctrination video into account: "Doesn't she know that Jews lived in 'Israel' before the holocaust?" they'd have to answer: Yes! And they were Muslim, Christian, Druze, and Hebrew/Jewish, you name it.

Which speaks toward a solution in my view, but one which racially inclined Zionists probably would not accept, and that is: The Dissolution of the exclusive Jewish state of Israel (as Zionist exceptionalists understand it), which again amounts to an inclusive state where all Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Hebrews are equally represented. With Jerusalem as its capital.

But whatever the case, to answer Percival's [and barracuda's from the locked thread] question: "[H]ow Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?" It can't. Israel as conceived of by Zionists and racial lines is an idea far past its sell-by date. It smells funny. Look around. The idea of a state based on race belongs to the days of heimat and lebensraum. It's no longer viable. And to insist on it will only lead to greater and more prolonged bloodshed.

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edited once for typos and insertions in [ ].

I think that this is very well thought out and certainly sincere. I need more time to give this consideration from all sides but my first question is, you seem to believe the Zionists wouldnt accept this when my question would be what gives you the idea that the Muslims/Arabs would accept this. My experience is that no matter how much Israel gives they will always want more, they ultimately want it all and want all Jews gone from the region. Now it can be debated as to whether they have that right or not, who was there first, chicken/egg type thing, which is another whole discussion, but again, I dont feel positive or certain that the Muslims/Arabs would accept your solution, but I do agree it is certainly something that should be considered and I have no personal objection to it at all.

Well, let me qualify that by saying exceptionalist Zionists who adhere to a racially pure concept of a Jewish state (whatever that is) would not accept it.

And yes, there are others who probably wouldn't either, but that's fairly trivial. What counts is that by trying to work towards a just and equitable solution for all parties some compromises will have to be made.

And again, how many Zionists would accept a non-Jewish state where all citizens have equal rights and representation regardless of "race"? A new flag and a new constitution? A new anthem or maybe none?


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[Percival]

Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.


Now you know how Israel feels.

"Isreal feels"? Or is it "Israel feels"? Israel is a sentient entity?

If Israel, by Zionist definition, is a Jewish state, Israel as an entity would not include Arab "Israelis" normally considered a fifth column threat would it?

I mean by included them you'd have to say Israel doesn't know how it feels, wouldn't you? Or that it feels schizophrenic and is a danger to itself.

What counts as Israel?

Historically the Zionist project was racial, not religious. What counted, and still counts is bloodline. Today it's the Y-chromosome and mitochondric DNA (which is a supposedly more "benign" form of race-science) but still, its a racial parameter.

Which is weird because, by dropping the question of religious identity, if Israelis really followed through on the racial aspect they'd have to accept that Palestinians, or what might strike them as even worse, Arabs are to be counted as Jews. So, taking a remark in a Helen Thomas scandal/indoctrination video into account: "Doesn't she know that Jews lived in 'Israel' before the holocaust?" they'd have to answer: Yes! And they were Muslim, Christian, Druze, and Hebrew/Jewish, you name it.

Which speaks toward a solution in my view, but one which racially inclined Zionists probably would not accept, and that is: The Dissolution of the exclusive Jewish state of Israel (as Zionist exceptionalists understand it), which again amounts to an inclusive state where all Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Hebrews are equally represented. With Jerusalem as its capital.

But whatever the case, to answer Percival's [and barracuda's from the locked thread] question: "[H]ow Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?" It can't. Israel as conceived of by Zionists and racial lines is an idea far past its sell-by date. It smells funny. Look around. The idea of a state based on race belongs to the days of heimat and lebensraum. It's no longer viable. And to insist on it will only lead to greater and more prolonged bloodshed.

*
edited once for typos and insertions in [ ].

I think that this is very well thought out and certainly sincere. I need more time to give this consideration from all sides but my first question is, you seem to believe the Zionists wouldnt accept this when my question would be what gives you the idea that the Muslims/Arabs would accept this. My experience is that no matter how much Israel gives they will always want more, they ultimately want it all and want all Jews gone from the region. Now it can be debated as to whether they have that right or not, who was there first, chicken/egg type thing, which is another whole discussion, but again, I dont feel positive or certain that the Muslims/Arabs would accept your solution, but I do agree it is certainly something that should be considered and I have no personal objection to it at all.

Well, let me qualify that by saying exceptionalist Zionists who adhere to a racially pure concept of a Jewish state (whatever that is) would not accept it.

And yes, there are others who probably wouldn't either, but that's fairly trivial. What counts is that by trying to work towards a just and equitable solution for all parties some compromises will have to be made.

And again, how many Zionists would accept a non-Jewish state where all citizens have equal rights and representation regardless of "race"? A new flag and a new constitution? A new anthem or maybe none?


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I would certainly accept that and do whatever was needed to make it happen, but I dont think the Old Money and those with real influence, call them what you will, would accept it because the idea from the beginning was a homeland for the Jews as a result of what happened during the Holocaust. Also I dont think the more radical factions of Islam/ Arabs, would agree to live peacefully side by side with Jews. I think the animosity or hatred, if you will, that both sides has for one another, is something that will never be undone. I had hoped, growing up in Israel and knowing many of those in my own generation who felt that this was all ridiculous and just allowing everyone to live together in peace would be the answer, that my generation would be the one to end it, but sadly it is the older generation that still rules the state and until that changes there will likely be no change, if ever.

[vanlose kid]

...
I would certainly accept that and do whatever was needed to make it happen, but I dont think the Old Money and those with real influence, call them what you will, would accept it because the idea from the beginning was a homeland for the Jews as a result of what happened during the Holocaust. Also I dont think the more radical factions of Islam/ Arabs, would agree to live peacefully side by side with Jews. I think the animosity or hatred, if you will, that both sides has for one another, is something that will never be undone. I had hoped, growing up in Israel and knowing many of those in my own generation who felt that this was all ridiculous and just allowing everyone to live together in peace would be the answer, that my generation would be the one to end it, but sadly it is the older generation that still rules the state and until that changed there will likely be no change, if ever.

I was going to address that earlier but forgot, so I'm glad you brought it up.

The idea of a Jüdische Heimat came about long before the holocaust.

Yes, the holocaust was used to justify it, but racial and nationalist ideologies gave birth to it. The same type of thinking that gave birth to Thule/Hyperborea in popular "Aryan" thinking.


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edit once for typos.

[bks]

Hamas has expressed a vow to exterminate Jews. All bets are off once that desire is stated.


Maybe that is what you and others are missing?

So let me understand, Percival. During the winter your five year-old neighbor says he wants to kill you because you make him sleep outside in the cold, and now you think you have the right to starve him as well?

Even if the desire to "exterminate Jews" expressed an actual desire, it would not amount to a material threat, as exterminating Jews is a little bit beyond the capacity of a poverty-stricken group of religious zealots in Gaza. When you factor in that they've had their hatred inflamed by an aggressive state that doesn't express it's hatred in words, but by grinding the bones of their brothers and sisters into dust, it makes it more plausible that things like that get said.

Still and all: who the fuck cares what Hamas says??? Give them their freedom, real freedom, and then we'll worry about what they say or do.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but Israel has no license to protect "Jews" from anything. It''s concern should be Israelis, Jews and non-Jews alike.

[17breezes]

Hamas has expressed a vow to exterminate Jews. All bets are off once that desire is stated.


Maybe that is what you and others are missing?

So let me understand, Percival. During the winter your five year-old neighbor says he wants to kill you because you make him sleep outside in the cold, and now you think you have the right to starve him as well?

Even if the desire to "exterminate Jews" expressed an actual desire, it would not amount to a material threat, as exterminating Jews is a little bit beyond the capacity of a poverty-stricken group of religious zealots in Gaza. When you factor in that they've had their hatred inflamed by an aggressive state that doesn't express it's hatred in words, but by grinding the bones of their brothers and sisters into dust, it makes it more plausible that things like that get said.

Still and all: who the fuck cares what Hamas says??? Give them their freedom, real freedom, and then we'll worry about what they say or do.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but Israel has no license to protect "Jews" from anything. It''s concern should be Israelis, Jews and non-Jews alike.

So you are advocating for de facto war and slaughter. Sounds self defeating.

[smiths]

Israel has no license to protect "Jews" from anything. It''s concern should be Israelis, Jews and non-Jews alike.

actually thats not technically true since

The Israeli Declaration of Independence, made on 14 May 1948, was the official announcement that the new Jewish state named the State of Israel had been formally established in parts of what was known as the British Mandate of Palestine and on land where, in antiquity, the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah had once been.

get that ... Jewish state

[Percival]

Hamas has expressed a vow to exterminate Jews. All bets are off once that desire is stated.


Maybe that is what you and others are missing?

So let me understand, Percival. During the winter your five year-old neighbor says he wants to kill you because you make him sleep outside in the cold, and now you think you have the right to starve him as well?

Even if the desire to "exterminate Jews" expressed an actual desire, it would not amount to a material threat, as exterminating Jews is a little bit beyond the capacity of a poverty-stricken group of religious zealots in Gaza. When you factor in that they've had their hatred inflamed by an aggressive state that doesn't express it's hatred in words, but by grinding the bones of their brothers and sisters into dust, it makes it more plausible that things like that get said.

Still and all: who the fuck cares what Hamas says??? Give them their freedom, real freedom, and then we'll worry about what they say or do.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but Israel has no license to protect "Jews" from anything. It''s concern should be Israelis, Jews and non-Jews alike.

See this is the problem, somehow someway someone has convinced the lot of you that Israel is starving these people when in fact they are delivering 10,000 tons of food water and supplies every week and Hamas often refuses to accept those deliveries for what reason I do not know.

No, there is no right to starve anyone but I will do what is necessary to prevent that person from stocking up on arms that will be used to deliver on their promise and that is what the blockade is there for.

If anyone is starving those people it is Hamas and their refusal of Israeli aid, not Israel.

Thats not to say Israel is doing everything right, there is much wrongdoing on both sides but I cannot accept anyone saying that Israel is willfully and knowingly starving those people because I personally know better, that is not an opinion it is a statement of fact from my own experience and seen with my own eyes. I have seen these deliveries and I have seen them rejected.

[barracuda]

So you are advocating for de facto war and slaughter. Sounds self defeating.

Isn't that what Percival means?

I think the animosity or hatred, if you will, that both sides has for one another, is something that will never be undone.

He's not advocating it, but he is resigned to it.

[Percival]

So you are advocating for de facto war and slaughter. Sounds self defeating.

Isn't that what Percival means?

I think the animosity or hatred, if you will, that both sides has for one another, is something that will never be undone.

He's not advocating it, but he is resigned to it.

No, that is not a personal feeling, that is what I see in the people there who matter, who make things happen, who have influence and money. I would like to believe future generations will not feel this way, but they grow up seeing shells fly through the air at all times of day and night and they will grow up with the same animosity and hatred.

[smiths]

yeah everyone, they are not being starved, they just all collectively decided to go on a diet,
and even though they could leave the Gaza strip freely and procure tasty falafels and shawarma,
they have collectively decided to stay in the Gaza strip, of their own volition, and lose weight

and to those who think this a personality issue with 17breezes, i say, fuck your moronic bullshit Percival, journalist my arse

[Percival]

yeah everyone, they are not being starved, they just all collectively decided to go on a diet,
and even though they could leave the Gaza strip freely and procure tasty falafels and shawarma,
they have collectively decided to stay in the Gaza strip, of their own volition, and lose weight

and to those who think this a personality issue with 17breezes, i say, fuck your moronic bullshit Percival, journalist my arse

When you have been there let me know, until then you really have no business making such comments. Now I have nothing further to say to you, if you cant control your emotions and have an honest discussion without name calling then why even bother?

I know for a fact that Israel delivers those 10,000 tons weekly, you do not. I also know for a fact that Hamas commonly refuses to accept them, another thing you know nothing about.

[smiths]

last one for the record ... i have been there fool, i lived in tel aviv and jerusalem for 6 months in 1994, i visited the west bank and the gaza strip and my wifes family are jewish,
your assumptions add to the general picture of ignorance you are creating

[Percival]

last one for the record ... i have been there fool, i lived in tel aviv and jerusalem for 6 months in 1994, i visited the west bank and the gaza strip and my wifes family are jewish,
your assumptions add to the general picture of ignorance you are creating

But you have not been there since 2007 when Hamas was voted in to power in the Gaza. Things have changed considerably since 1994, Smiths.

I am telling you as a matter of record that Israel does indeed deliver 10,000 tons of food water and supplies to the Gaza EVERY WEEK. That is hardly starving them. What IS starving them is when HAMAS REJECTS THOSE DELIVERIES.

[JackRiddler]

I dont know of any other situation in the world like that of Muslims and Jews, specifically Hamas and Israel.

I also dont know of any people that lost 6 million in one shebang.

I think the Jewish problem is unique personally and it is going to take unique solutions to fix it.

I shudder to think what you might imagine that is.

And if you don't know, it can only be because it doesn't interest you. Leaving aside the worst holocaust of all, that in the Congo under King Leopold, and the starvation in India in the 1870s when the British were exporting enough grain out of India to feed the millions who starved, you don't seem to know the history of the Second World War itself. About as many non-Jewish as Jewish civilians were murdered in Europe as a result of German extermination policies. And does it need to be said these policies were carried out by Europeans, not Arabs?

This isn't a competition.