Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Sounder » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:22 am

dodger- I guess my definition of counter-intuitive might be material that does not line up with existing structures of thought. So while the material may be generated through an intuitive inspiration in one person, it will still remain for a time, counter-intuitive to other folk.



Our intellectual categories are given shape and limits depending on the depth of the conceptual structures that create those categories. Our consciousness then acts as a limiter as thoughts become tied to relating to the external world through mental fashions and the category potentials of our current framework for understanding.

Now It should be said, I live on intuition more so than intellectual formulations and analysis and I often observe that my assessments produce a feeling of discomfort that might be on account my material being bullshit or alternately because I like to illustrate contrast between how another person thinks about a certain thing and unconsidered potentials.

So a thing that might seem intuitive to one person will be counter-intuitive to another. Also because or given that intuition is colored by intellect, then with or without it, we can be lead down blind alleys just as well as creating useful refinements in understanding.

As an example; my intuition is that the apocalypse is where we realize greater inherent human potential, whereas societal programming indicates this as the place and space where life ends. Hence the dominant intuition that things may take a turn for the nasty at any time contrasts with my intuition that, with just a smidgeon more recognition of our potential, we could patch things up and create much better living conditions for all.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:12 pm

erosoplier » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:50 pm wrote:
Im just wondering about your general thoughts on "free" energy from electromagnetism ?



I guess, the proof is in the pudding. If something is real then the odds are that it will be exposed as being real, no matter how much suppression is going on. If someone has discovered the secret of alchemy and wants recognition, they needn't moan and groan about how the government is suppressing their ideas - all they have to do is produce the gold right in front of a skeptical audience, repeatably.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10777&hilit


Heh. One wonders what would happen to that person upon demonstrating their alchemical prowess. perhaps the real alchemy is in brainwashing people into valuing gold beyond it's utilitarian value.

It seems to me upon reading the following that modern science in some areas is still not that far removed from it's alchemical origins:

Intrinsic inefficiencies plague current systems for the generation and delivery of electricity, with significant energy lost in transit. High-temperature superconductors (HTS)—uniquely capable of transmitting electricity with zero loss when chilled to subzero temperatures—could revolutionize the planet's aging and imperfect energy infrastructure, but the remarkable materials remain fundamentally puzzling to physicists.

...

Superconductivity demands extremely cold conditions and a precise chemical recipe. Beyond selecting the right elements from the periodic table, physicists carefully tweak the electron content of atoms through a process called doping. Doping determines the average number of electrons present in each atom, and in turn dictates both the behavior of spin waves and the presence of HTS, which emerges around a particular doping sweet spot.

For this study, the team examined thin films of lanthanum, strontium, copper, and oxygen—often abbreviated as LSCO. These particular HTS materials can be tuned to exhibit a wide range of different electronic behaviors.

...

To grow these materials, Brookhaven Lab physicist Ivan Bozovic—another author on the study—used a custom-built atomic layer-by-layer molecular beam epitaxy machine (ALL-MBE). Bozovic's system is uniquely equipped to monitor the synthesis of the LSCO films in real-time, giving him an unparalleled degree of control over the atomic composition of each layer, including adjustments to the doping levels.


http://phys.org/news/2013-08-scientists ... supercondu


Their toys are a lot more sophisticated like the "custom-built atomic layer-by-layer molecular beam epitaxy machine" (whatever that is) but the educated trial and error methodology still exists. There's more than just "remarkable materials" which remain "fundamentally puzzling to physicists". The world needs the Brookhaven labs and the garage lab tinkerers equally.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby slimmouse » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:37 pm

brainpanhandler » 06 Aug 2013 17:12 wrote:
erosoplier » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:50 pm wrote:
Im just wondering about your general thoughts on "free" energy from electromagnetism ?



I guess, the proof is in the pudding. If something is real then the odds are that it will be exposed as being real, no matter how much suppression is going on. If someone has discovered the secret of alchemy and wants recognition, they needn't moan and groan about how the government is suppressing their ideas - all they have to do is produce the gold right in front of a skeptical audience, repeatably.
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/ ... 0777&hilit


Heh. One wonders what would happen to that person upon demonstrating their alchemical prowess. perhaps the real alchemy is in brainwashing people into valuing gold beyond it's utilitarian value.

It seems to me upon reading the following that modern science in some areas is still not that far removed from it's alchemical origins:

Intrinsic inefficiencies plague current systems for the generation and delivery of electricity, with significant energy lost in transit. High-temperature superconductors (HTS)—uniquely capable of transmitting electricity with zero loss when chilled to subzero temperatures—could revolutionize the planet's aging and imperfect energy infrastructure, but the remarkable materials remain fundamentally puzzling to physicists.

...

Superconductivity demands extremely cold conditions and a precise chemical recipe. Beyond selecting the right elements from the periodic table, physicists carefully tweak the electron content of atoms through a process called doping. Doping determines the average number of electrons present in each atom, and in turn dictates both the behavior of spin waves and the presence of HTS, which emerges around a particular doping sweet spot.

For this study, the team examined thin films of lanthanum, strontium, copper, and oxygen—often abbreviated as LSCO. These particular HTS materials can be tuned to exhibit a wide range of different electronic behaviors.

...

To grow these materials, Brookhaven Lab physicist Ivan Bozovic—another author on the study—used a custom-built atomic layer-by-layer molecular beam epitaxy machine (ALL-MBE). Bozovic's system is uniquely equipped to monitor the synthesis of the LSCO films in real-time, giving him an unparalleled degree of control over the atomic composition of each layer, including adjustments to the doping levels.


http://phys.org/news/2013-08-scientists ... supercondu


Their toys are a lot more sophisticated like the "custom-built atomic layer-by-layer molecular beam epitaxy machine" (whatever that is) but the educated trial and error methodology still exists. There's more than just "remarkable materials" which remain "fundamentally puzzling to physicists". The world needs the Brookhaven labs and the garage lab tinkerers equally.


I kinda get pissed at this kind of retort.

What for example, in your best estimation, happens to 'garage lab tinkerers' who might stumble upon something real?

Explain to me the neccesary process involved in making 'garage lab tinkering', turning into the real deal, whereupon I'll tell you how it subsequently goes down, if you didnt suspect it already.

The big energy giants aren't playing softball here. To suggest that they wouldnt crush like bugs anything that threatens their hegemony over how life on earth is just now is quite frankly fukn ludicrous.

To me, at this stage in the game the Big energy giants are the ultimate definition of stupid.

Whilst others will define them as they may, I kinda like wintlers "suicide cult" analogy a while back on another thread.

Whilst these guys call the shots, how much of the rest of humanity is suicidal?

Hence my barfing for long enough about "Man made global warming ". Talk about a moot point to the seriously informed.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Sounder » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:18 pm

I prefer to try to relate to orthodoxy in a positive way. (It helps that my wife who is involved with and a product of orthodoxy is as wonderful a person as you would be likely able to imagine.)

Short story; this last weekend I attended a wedding for a past workmate of my wife’s. One fellow I spoke with is a research chemist/MD and husband to the head of a ------ department.

I like weddings, and I like strangers. All science types at this event.

Anyway, I did my guerrilla ontology thing (after the bio-bits and pleasantry exchanges) for five or ten minutes and this fellow listened very well.

I found a quick finish by commenting that essentially what I try to do is to encourage very smart people to be more humble.

With an afterthought add-on that; of course it works best if there is no ranting involved.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:31 pm

...

One wonders what would happen to that person upon demonstrating their alchemical prowess.


One does, doesn't one?

...
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:14 pm

slimmouse » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:37 pm wrote:I kinda get pissed at this kind of retort..


My last contributuon to the thread was not intended as a "retort". I'm sorry if I offended you. It wasn't my intent.

What for example, in your best estimation, happens to 'garage lab tinkerers' who might stumble upon something real?


Well, it's hard to say. The magnet secret guy got rebuffed by academe. Not unusual. If he can get enough backers and his technology has merit he can get it patented. I think he already did if I recall what I read correctly.

Explain to me the neccesary process involved in making 'garage lab tinkering', turning into the real deal, whereupon I'll tell you how it subsequently goes down, if you didnt suspect it already.


I don't understand what you are getting at. Can you speak plainly?
The big energy giants aren't playing softball here. To suggest that they wouldnt crush like bugs anything that threatens their hegemony over how life on earth is just now is quite frankly fukn ludicrous.


I agree. Although "crushing like bugs" might start with just trying to buy the patent and then burying it. Is there anything I have ever written here that would make you think I would disagree with the idea that the big energy giants are evil?



To me, at this stage in the game the Big energy giants are the ultimate definition of stupid.


I don;t know if "stupid" is the word I would use. They're kinda evil geniuses.

Whilst others will define them as they may, I kinda like wintlers "suicide cult" analogy a while back on another thread.


Hm. Don't remember that. I guess I'm a part of that cult. I support it too much to completely disavow it.
Whilst these guys call the shots, how much of the rest of humanity is suicidal?


I don't know.
Hence my barfing for long enough about "Man made global warming ". Talk about a moot point to the seriously informed


Yah. You'll have to explain that too. Do you still doubt anthropogenic global climate disruption?

WHich of these meanings do you intend?

1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.
2. of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.

Seriously informed? About what?

You'll have to speak plainer slim.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Searcher08 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:28 am

In alignment with the OP, I noticed many parallels between issues discussed in this thread and the field of archeology.


The video was about discoveries made in the 1950s and 60s which points in the direction of the New World being inhabited for several hundred thousand years, which blows up the "New World was virgin territory till settled from Siberia at the end of the last Ice Age" theory.

The relevant takes aways were:
1 If a person comes up with evidence that is not an extension of an existing framework, but rather demolishes it / shows it is wrong, then the degree of reaction from the system will be proportional to the number and strength of vested interests affected by this information.

2 The system will rapidly eject any internal element which 'turns against it' by
firstly removing resources then
secondly excluding the element from functioning within the system the system, then
thirdly removing awareness / communication regarding the element with the wider system. Academic reputations in particular will be retroactively down graded or erased from institutional memory.

3 Unique physical artifacts, field / research notes and models in particular will be subject to being destroyed or dissappeared.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby wintler2 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:35 am

slimmouse wrote:Whilst others will define them as they may, I kinda like wintlers "suicide cult" analogy a while back on another thread.


To correct slims misrepresentation, my point could only have been that -we- are the voluntary human extinction movement. And we're winning .. yay team! All of us reading & writing on this screen are overconsumers, living beyond our means. Dodging personal responsibility and blaming oil corps/illuminati/reptilians/tories/repugnicants etc is how we got here: the many faces of denial define us..
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/20 ... of-denial/
The best thing about free energy is that it keeps some of the morons harmlessly diverted, e.g. its better than them playing with firearms.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby wintler2 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:47 am



Laws of thermodynamics IOW:
Zeroth: You must play the game.
First: You can't win.
Second: You can't break even.
Third: You can't quit the game.

Some people say 'how depressing' etc. IMHO this sort of stupidity stems from childish aversion to the fact of death, see link in my previous post about denial. Fear of death is one of the commonest yet most definitively futile delusions going.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Sounder » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:45 am

wintler2 wrote...
To correct slims misrepresentation, my point could only have been that -we- are the voluntary human extinction movement. And we're winning .. yay team! All of us reading & writing on this screen are overconsumers, living beyond our means. Dodging personal responsibility and blaming oil corps/illuminati/reptilians/tories/repugnicants etc is how we got here: the many faces of denial define us.

Well excuse me for living and trying to do the best I can. I don’t think your concern is with our denial. It seems more like a buzzword to carry on with your idea that life is the enemy of life. It is absurd Club of Rome propaganda.

The best thing about free energy is that it keeps some of the morons harmlessly diverted, e.g. its better than them playing with firearms.


So I am guessing that you have not watched the Paul Babcock interview wintler2.

I find your words to echo standard programming that the individual is so fundamentally flawed that we must defer to the larger system of orthodoxy to guide us.

A moron is one who is dead to curiosity. (You might be projecting wintler2)
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby brainpanhandler » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:28 pm

wintler2 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:35 am wrote: All of us reading & writing on this screen are overconsumers, living beyond our means. Dodging personal responsibility and blaming oil corps/illuminati/reptilians/tories/repugnicants etc is how we got here: the many faces of denial define us..
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/20 ... of-denial/


Thanks for that Wintler. Fascinating interview/theory. I'm gonna have to chew on that for a bit as it is an injection of novelty into my thinking on the subject of our relationship to death. I wonder how Varki reconciles this evolutionary dynamic with the fact that modern humans do not have the same sort of selection pressures visited upon us.

Also, Varki mentions and I was unfamiliar with Terror Management Theory and Becker's The Denial of Death. Lot's more to consider there.

And strangely enough it's not all that unrelated to the OP. The dreamers are the wild optimists and God bless them. True discovery and invention, that is, adding novel information and understanding to our worldview, is often the product of happy accidents. It's long odds and its easy to ridicule all the trying and failing, but that's one of the avenues by which progress is made. Thankfully it's not the only one.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby brainpanhandler » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:16 pm



Thanks for posting this.

Interesting discussion of the diatom evidence at 59:00. At the 1 hour mark Mike Waters responds to criticism of his theory of redeposition of younger deposits into the older deposits by saying he has not fully digested the diatom evidence, but that he has seen critiques of diatom evidence that he doesn't "want to go into here". If there was redeposition of younger diatoms into the strata where the bones and artifacts were found, theoretically redeposited by water erosion into the deeper layers then as is pointed out there ought to also be younger versions of diatoms present in the older layers as well. But there was not. Waters has no reasonable answer to this critique.

I can understand how this is illustrative of orthodox, mainstream thinking irrationally defending itself and attempting to confirm its own biases and I understand how that might be infuriating.

But any new theory or evidence purporting to overthrow existing established theories NEEDS the Mike Waters of the orthodoxy to rigorously and vigorously question, test and probe the new information. Don't hate on Mike. He's a part of the mix regardless of how entrenched in his own belief system he may seem.

Where the establishment shuts out controversial theories and information and pillories researchers for having the temerity to question the dominant orthodoxy of the day or worse yet suppressing and disappearing research and evidence is where we run into serious trouble. Everyone knows this. We all agree on this. This is uncontroversial here at RI. We all question conventional, established truth, regularly. That's a commonality among the membership here. I think.


edited for clarity
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby slimmouse » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:39 pm

"Free Energy".

Why can we not create steam from the heat of the sun to drive turbines or create some pretty serious hydraulic pressure?

I'll bet we can or at least we could, you know.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby wintler2 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:51 pm

brainpanhandler » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 am wrote:.. I wonder how Varki reconciles this evolutionary dynamic with the fact that modern humans do not have the same sort of selection pressures visited upon us.

Not sure that modern longevity make much difference, as we all still die, the fact of death hasn't changed. I do wonder about the massive increase in the amount of ego support / death denial provided by culture, eg. 24 hour media reinforcement of the 'importance' of humans, and the consequent waning of humility. Is it just coincidence that they're concurrent with our very un-humble growthist suicide cult?
Wandering afield, i think Jed McKenna is right that it is only our egos that fear death, and our egos are not really us. 'Memento mori' is a cure for many ills.

brainpanhandler » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 am wrote:..And strangely enough it's not all that unrelated to the OP. The dreamers are the wild optimists and God bless them. True discovery and invention, that is, adding novel information and understanding to our worldview, is often the product of happy accidents. It's long odds and its easy to ridicule all the trying and failing, but that's one of the avenues by which progress is made. Thankfully it's not the only one.

I'm all for curiousity and trying, its the unevidenced & lazy armchair certainty of the free energy zealots that makes me laugh.


slimmouse » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:39 pm wrote:"Free Energy". Why can we not create steam from the heat of the sun to drive turbines or create some pretty serious hydraulic pressure? I'll bet we can or at least we could, you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power
Not even slightly suppressed, just more expensive than coal.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby justdrew » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:59 pm

slimmouse » 07 Aug 2013 11:39 wrote:"Free Energy".

Why can we not create steam from the heat of the sun to drive turbines or create some pretty serious hydraulic pressure?

I'll bet we can or at least we could, you know.


we are. in fact the worlds largest such installation is opening soon. solar concentrators, been built since the late 60s if not before. A very "perfectible" engineering problem, modular, etc. Great stuff, it's too bad that and many other things weren't built extensively a generation ago. One more thing to hang on the chains around the ghost of reagan.

We could have saved the world, 40 years ago. Probably somewhat too late now. but then, I'm not in a great mood atm. :shrug:
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