Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:15 pm

Wikileaks Indicts and Vindicates US Diplomats: Leaking the Obvious?
by Ramzy Baroud

December 10, 2010
http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud12102010.html

excerpt:

The WikiLeaks vs. the US government saga started in July, when 77,000 secret US documents directly relating to Afghanistan were made available to major media organizations. Many of us shook our heads with a mixture of disgust and vindication. We had long been aware of the brutality of the war, and the corruption of its benefactors. Now we finally had written, uncontested proof.

The Afghanistan War Logs were revealing and damning. They were filed by soldiers and commanders in the field. Despite the largeness of their size, they constituted a decipherable narrative, a sorry story to told and discussed.

The Iraq War Diaries also resembled an unmitigated disaster for US war plans. 391,832 classified military documents were published on October 22, revealing the extent of the calamitous invasion, occupation and 'state building' underway in Iraq.

The value of these finds – representing the largest leak in history – was unmatched. It effectively brought to an end the illusion that all was well in Mesopotamia. As with the Afghanistan documents, these files too constituted a narrative, albeit an extremely long and disturbing one. The fact that 15,000 Iraqi deaths are now officially included in the Iraqi death count is in itself a remarkable achievement.

The leaks regarding Afghanistan and Iraq were related. The much touted 'success' of the surge in Iraq under former US President George W. Bush is being repeated in Afghanistan under current President Barack Obama. The same haughtiness, language, and even strategies are now being duplicated. Thanks to the logs and diaries, now we know we are being fed half-truths. We can see through the dodgy numbers, the fabricated estimations, the flashy and dishonest language of politicians and leaders. Never again should anyone claim a lack of knowledge of civilian casualties, detainee abuse, corruption, and very shifty war goals.

On November 28, the State Department was faced with another leak and embarrassment. 250,000 US diplomatic cables were released, divulging everything from the US' belittling judgments of the supposedly poor fighting abilities of British soldiers in Helmand to the unwelcomed camaraderie between Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, from Qatar's alleged "(hesitance) to act against known terrorists" to Hezbollah's alleged attainment of new and sophisticated weapons through Syria.

Much of what has been disclosed was known, expected or realized through a simple exercise of deductive reasoning. In the case of Russia, cables, many of which were disclosed to the New York Times and four other major international news outlets, merely demonstrated the limited access enjoyed by US diplomats in that country. This left them reliant mostly on third party accounts, and their own personal interpretations. Their messages, at times, read like unsophisticated blogs, conceited and overly judgmental, if not overly personal.

In the case of Turkey, which seems to be the center of American diplomacy, 7,981 leaked documents reflected a predictable hatred and paranoia towards a country spreading its wings as a regional power – in a region already claimed by both Israel and the United States. According to reports, the comments were almost all negative. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was reportedly described as an "autocratic Islamist" who surrounds himself with an "iron ring of sycophantic (but contemptuous) advisors." Ahmet Davutoglu, the foreign minister, is described as "extremely dangerous," with neo-Ottoman ambitions.

While there were numerous insulting comments about the leaders of almost all the countries discussed in the cables, some revelations were particularly suspicious. For one, it seems strange that Israel, a nuclear-power with ongoing military adventures was spared much of the embarrassment. Iran's nuclear program-related documents were bewildering, as they comprised the only case with a consistent and consequential narrative. This was embraced by the Israeli Jerusalem Post, which described the findings as vindicating to Israel (because the leaks alleged that the desire to eliminate Iran's nuclear program was also shared by others in the region). The timing of this revelation seems suspicious, in light of Iran's scheduled nuclear talks in Geneva, and the increasingly warming of relations between Iran and various Arab countries. It seems as if someone, or some entity, wants to enliven the conflict with Iran, and spread it throughout the Middle East.
User avatar
Montag
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:32 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby anothershamus » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:17 pm

Shamless bumping!

anothershamus wrote:This is how I feel, for the most part, I reserve a little bit of my own free will to disagree if I feel like it.
from Of Goats and Men :http://ofgoatsandmen.blogspot.com/

I'm getting sick of the irrational Wikileaks detractors...
Ok, yes it's all a conspiracy to shut down the internet. They want to do that we know. So anything we do, to expose truth, gives them an excuse to shut us down. By this logic, all of us are working for them. Give me a break. But this is the thinking going into a lot of Wikileaks criticism in the alternative news world.

I could be wrong of course, any of us could be, but the more I find out about Wikileaks, the more interesting it gets.

If you want to know the milieu where some of the ideas for Wikileaks originated....perhaps we should do what John Young suggested on Alex Jones today and have a look at the Wikipedia page for Cypherpunks.

It seems like a community of rebellious scientific minds who wanted to use technology and cryptography to defeat unjust authority in different ways.

Is this such a bad thing?

Why is it deserving of attack?

Ask these questions before you join the group screaming conspiracy against Wikileaks.

There are some exciting revelations coming up if John Young is to be believed. Future items which he expects to be released by Wikileaks have to do with everything from The Vatican to Weapons of Mass Destruction and leaks from the Banks.

Do you want to just scream psy-op or maybe see what info is about to come out? It might be interesting.
)'(
User avatar
anothershamus
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:58 pm
Location: bi local
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby barracuda » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:17 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:Don't any of you geniuses...


I'm going to assume you're referring to me. :wink:

Brzezinski is a wily SOB with lots of first-hand experience in the dirtiest of games, but nobody can question his absolute loyalty to the American Empire and his rare, at that level, refusal to kowtow to an Israeli agenda.


I'll just rephrase my position from upthread - given the choice between considering the opinions of two abject war criminals, Netanyahu and Brzezinski, you have opted to go with the one who "refuses to kowtow to an Israeli agenda". No surprises here, except to find that you have offered his opinion without considering that he almost certainly has his own axe to grind regarding the issue.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:21 pm

I've seen Counterpunch routinely attacked here as a gatekeeping/conspiraphobe website. It's seem Counterpunch is more openminded on this than a lot of folks here. It's so odd to me they are so anti-JFK/911 Alexander Cockburn was always very supportive of Gary Webb.
User avatar
Montag
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:32 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Elvis » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:27 pm

anothershamus wrote:
from Of Goats and Men :http://ofgoatsandmen.blogspot.com/
I'm getting sick of the irrational Wikileaks detractors...
Ok, yes it's all a conspiracy to shut down the internet. They want to do that we know. So anything we do, to expose truth, gives them an excuse to shut us down. By this logic, all of us are working for them....


Thank you. That article says it so well.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:32 pm

Elvis wrote:
Thank you. That article says it so well.


No actually I think William Engdahl is one of the best geopolitical analysts in the world. I'm sorry someone at some inconsequential blog doesn't really cut it for me.
User avatar
Montag
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:32 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Simulist » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:43 pm

Montag wrote:I've seen Counterpunch routinely attacked here as a gatekeeping/conspiraphobe website. It's seem Counterpunch is more openminded on this than a lot of folks here. It's so odd to me they are so anti-JFK/911 Alexander Cockburn was always very supportive of Gary Webb.

I enjoy Counterpunch, but every source in a culture is going to be affected by that prevailing culture. Nothing and no one is infallible, and comparatively few things will always be consistently and fully reliable.

Project Willow wrote about the "deep yearning for certainty" last night, the perceived need to "categorize" things "immediately." When we give in to this, I think we almost inevitably set ourselves up for error.

Whatever WikiLeaks really turns out to be, the material it continues to release will make for numerous interesting discussions for quite a long time to come.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:50 pm

Simulist wrote:I enjoy Counterpunch, but every source in a culture is going to be affected by that prevailing culture. Nothing and no one is infallible, and comparatively few things will always be consistently and fully reliable.

Project Willow wrote about the "deep yearning for certainty" last night, the perceived need to "categorize" things "immediately." When we give in to this, I think we're almost inevitably set ourselves up for error.

Whatever WikiLeaks really turns out to be, the material it continues to release will make for numerous interesting discussions for quite a long time to come.


Well you should let Cockburn know you question his journalistic standards. To tell the truth I have published on some alternative media sites (only a couple I consider to be large at all, usually I never hear back from them, haha) and to my knowledge they don't do any fact checking... But I would expect that from a "lordly" publication like Counterpunch. Although those of us who suspect a dodge, are definitely going on things other than evidence -- though we see things we recognize and dislike the overall narrative.

p.s. Counterpunch was essentially my Bible before I got into deep politics. Now I know not to trust any publication. I've said Global Research is what I think is a good template for an alternative media website, I can't say everything they publish (or have published is rock solid), but I mean I've never heard them called a gatekeeper... In the sense they are open-minded and not a gatekeeper I'd say they are good. To tell you the truth I've seen little they've printed (if anything) that I consider to be garbage. I assume people know economist Michel Chossudovsky is the editor of Global Research.
Last edited by Montag on Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Montag
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:32 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Simulist » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:55 pm

Montag wrote:Well you should let Cockburn know you question his journalistic standards.

Huh? Did you even read what I wrote?

I question everything: you, me, even Jesus for Christ's sake.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Elvis » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:57 pm

Montag wrote:
Elvis wrote:
Thank you. That article says it so well.


[...] I'm sorry someone at some inconsequential blog doesn't really cut it for me.

(Didn't there used to be a "BULLSHIT!" emoticon?)

You're attacking the writer (on flimsy grounds I might add), not the ideas.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby anothershamus » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:03 pm

Michel Chossudovsky's wiki:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ossudovsky

He is a solid guy it seems, yet no matter who is referred to on this blog, he will be attacked by someone, and called a 'plant', 'insider', 'dis-informationist', 'Israeli mosad', or inconsequential blogger.
)'(
User avatar
anothershamus
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:58 pm
Location: bi local
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:06 pm

Elvis wrote:
You're attacking the writer (on flimsy grounds I might add), not the ideas.


Well, I don't know how to retort... If I'm not familiar with someone writing an oped (anything opinion), often I try to learn something about them. The opinion people I most respect I follow them for some time before giving respect to them...
User avatar
Montag
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:32 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby barracuda » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:10 pm

Montag wrote:It's seem Counterpunch is more openminded on this than a lot of folks here.


I don't know, dude it sounds like the tone over there contains a great deal of support for WikiLeaks as the genuine article. Here's Cockburn today, decrying the economic shutdown of the site as censorship:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn12102010.html

Here's Rannie Amiri quoting cables in support of his article about Elias Murr:

http://www.counterpunch.org/amiri12102010.html

Here's Ramzy Baroud insisting upon the genuineness of the cables while posing questions as to their ultimate usefulness:

http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud12102010.html

Here's Sherwood Ross, "Greens Defending Assange":

http://www.counterpunch.org/ross12102010.html

And that's just today. Those persons here on RI who are viewed as "supporting" WikiLeaks, are the same ones who are saying "wait and see" regarding the content of future cables and the prosecution of criminal indictments. The lack of open-mindedness seems - to me - to be on the other side of the argument.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Elvis » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:11 pm

Montag wrote:
Elvis wrote:
You're attacking the writer (on flimsy grounds I might add), not the ideas.


Well, I don't know how to retort... If I'm not familiar with someone writing an oped (anything opinion), often I try to learn something about them. The opinion people I most respect I follow them for some time before giving respect to them...

I'll try this again....

You're attacking the writer (on flimsy grounds I might add), not the ideas.

:ohno:
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning WikiLeaks Thread

Postby Montag » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:14 pm

I expect Counterpunch to support Wikileaks... They printed stuff like Vote for Obama, and dissenting views the last presidential election (McKinney etc., Nader is regular Counterpunch contributor). The editorial position of Counterpunch is probably to support it -- and that doesn't surprise me at all.
User avatar
Montag
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:32 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)
PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 149 guests