New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:46 pm

Hmm, I've discovered older threads in which I'd written pretty much everything I meant to add here.

For example,


What Is a Christian?

Being a Christian does not mean you believe in the Old Testament God, or in Jesus as his literal son and Messenger of a New Testament.

Being a Christian has nothing to do with faith in the literal truth of Trinity, Original Sin, Immaculate Conception, Resurrection and transubstantiation, the Saints and their miracles, Heaven and Hell, the Devil, or the authority of any of the churches.

Believing that Jesus was a real person who lived in Roman Palestine 2000 years ago does not make you a Christian. Believing that the Gospels constitute an accurate telling of this person's life does not make you a Christian.

You can reject all of these propositions and still be a Christian.

You can believe all of these propositions and yet not be a Christian!

Being a Christian means you take as your guide in life the teachings of the Christ as told in the received Gospels -- that you strive always to live and act as the Christ himself taught and acted.

Read the Gospels: Love your neighbor, be true in your words and deeds, eschew hypocrisy, treat everyone as your equal, share your wealth with the poor, put the common good ahead of the individual good, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, engage in humble prayer and don't pontificate like a Pharisee, don't enrich yourself through preaching, don't use Roman money, don't tolerate money-changers in the Temple, don't commit adultery, and, if need be to defend your integrity, then go to your death like a sovereign being. Spread these teachings to everyone you can reach, always with humility. The kingdom of heaven is yours already on earth.

You may believe that God is a human myth, the Christ story a complete fiction, and the Pope a fraud. You may believe anything about the nature of the universe you like, including that this nature is unknown to us except insofar as it can be apprehended through the means of empirical science. You are still a Christian if you read what Jesus reportedly said and did, and do your best to live by it.

If you don't seek to follow the teachings, you are not a Christian, even if you believe Christ was crucified and on the third day rose again. Pat Robertson is not a Christian. Cardinal Ratzinger is not a Christian. They may believe there was a Jesus, but they do not strive to follow his teachings. In the same way, you can acknowledge that there was a real Karl Marx who was born in Germany and wrote the Communist Manifesto and died in the 19th century, but that alone does not make you a Marxist.

Those numerous Christian sects who uphold doctrines of the Elect, or of rule by divine right, or of wealth as a sign of Grace, are not actually Christians, because these doctrines directly contradict the teachings of the Christ.

You can also be something on the border: a hypocritical Christian. You may know the teachings and profess belief in them, but fail to really or always strive to live by them. The striving, honest and complete, is the most important part. Honest failures are fine; Jesus loves the imperfect and forgives the sinner, but he rejects the hypocrite.

Finally, if you don't know the teachings and haven't even heard the Christ story, but nevertheless live in a way that would be consistent with the teachings, then you are not a Christian, but you are with them. You sing together. You could be a Buddhist, or a Marxist, or someone who understands their own religion in the same way, or simply a good person who loves your neighbors. Real Christians would accept you completely, as you are.

I'm not a Christian by my own definition, or by anyone else's. From infancy forward I was subjected to Christianity, or at any rate the religions claiming to be Christian, first by my family and then by the surrounding culture, and I remain surrounded by them. So I feel every right to speak on this.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:50 pm

.

Yeah, I am getting senile. I posted the following two years ago, had forgotten completely. Then again my interest has been re-piqued by running into organized atheists here in NYC. (The short of it is that after the last election they're more like a Democratic club than a bunch of Sam Harris clones - although there are a couple among them. And pretty good for drink and debate.)

When people pray to flies and bottletops, they do the same thing they've always done: idolatry; synechdochic self-delusion. Or is it just a way to find a center, find peace with the awe-inspiring universe? I'll get back to you.

Meanwhile, Dawkins has a god he hawks -- a reduction of evolutionary theory that leaves nothing but genes and memes in a zero-sum elimination battle -- and, like most public atheists, a preferred god to attack: the anthropomorphic sky-predator of the Old Testament desert religions. Come to think of it, that's the one I also have the big problem with. He has most definitely received a deserving kill-shot, though it's taking a few centuries to bleed out.

Meanwhile, there's Hitchens, really not so far removed (though he is more famously an asshole than Dawkins, I think Dawkins is equivalent in asshole-substance). Hitchens presents an atheism for neocons, one that singles out Muslims for extra abuse as an internationale of walking bombs, and one he grotesquely ties to support for the Terror War as a necessary move against fundamentalism, although it overthrew a secular Iraqi regime and was presided by a moron who thought he was given a mission from God.

One of my more twisted listening experiences recently was of the Hitchens-Hedges debate, in which it was never clear whether they were contending over the existence of Sky-God and value of organized religion (in which a knife-wielding Hitchens cut the sonorously pontificating Hedges into cutlets in logical terms) or the Iraq war (in which the atheist supported the modern repeat of the Christian crusades and the Jesus guy seemed to agree that the invasion was essentially godless). Goddess help us indeed, if this Bizarroland conflation is indicative of an actual trend.

Christopher Hitchens and Chris Hedges debate the most contentious issue of our time - religion.
http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=21538
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby 82_28 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:16 pm

Yes AND no on all points from me there, Jack. I am not attempting to be cagey either. I can agree and disagree with everything you said, but you seem to have a bit of a technocratic lean to our communal grasp of history. Which is all good!

However, if we are to understand who came before us, we need to understand that technology and common consensus is always in flux and what we know today had much different impacts in the past had we lived amongst those who came before us. Yet the streets we stroll, the bridges that span the gaps, the rails upon which we ride, the forgotten buildings lost, all had people who built them and communities and families that looked at the world much different than we do. Why were these grand and not so grand cathedrals and churches built which served as community centers and vice versa also the centers of prejudice? Obviously it does not prove the existence of God, but it proves that we are connected to someone who thought about life on Earth differently than we do and we got here somehow. Now we have pervasive technology, even when we sleep. But to someone in 1900 it would have probably seemed that technology then was pervasive as well as none of us through time has ever had any incremental step to compare it to.

If anything, and obviously, no offense meant, what you are espousing is a liberal technocracy and not atheism. Or "New Atheism".

Again, my argument is "we got here somehow, ergo, something had to have been done right". God/spiritualism are not the droids you're looking for.

There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby slimmouse » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:21 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Atheism is a refusal to believe in an invisible and sentient super-powerful creator-ruler-god on the sole basis of someone's say-so without evidence, or someone's expectation that you should have faith. Atheism means "without god." It is the same self-evident stance one takes with any other claims of invisible unproved phenomena that no one ever sees, but when it comes to "god" people are generally unhinged, thanks to early conditioning.


Jack, with respect,you've just made two preposterous generalisations, ( not to mention a number of ignorant inferences about the general nature of theists) within that paragraph particularly the latter. Read it again, and imagine what it sounds like to a theist.

I would probably argue that a good majority of genuinely spiritual people, have reached such a theist conculusion despite the nonsense contained within their early conditioning. Furthermore, for many people I suspect that spirtiual theism is an innate feeling. Instinctive and intuitive. And I would also suggest its very fukn widespread cos the PTB have been all over it like white on rice for their own twisted ends ever since. Hence we got "Religion". Privatisation of Spirituality if you like. Recognise the MO?

HCEs post was pretty much where Im coming from on all of this, along with Sounders comments about the entire problems involved in the conflation of spirituality and religion. These terms to my mind are complete opposites by any serious definition.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:35 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
H_C_E wrote:But I realized a belief in nothing was still a belief. It required too much faith for
me to be atheist.


Nonsense. Atheism is not a belief in nothing. ...

Atheism is a refusal to believe in an invisible and sentient super-powerful creator-ruler-god on the sole basis of someone's say-so without evidence, or someone's expectation that you should have faith.


so Atheism is rebellion, then.


JackRiddler wrote: Atheism means "without god." It is the same self-evident stance one takes with any other claims of invisible unproved phenomena that no one ever sees, but when it comes to "god" people are generally unhinged, thanks to early conditioning.


Well, YOU have never 'seen' God (in spite of the fact that I bet you've seen an apple seed) and for whatever reason you've gone and assigned one sense over all others... blind people have never seen a car, but cars are real. (I know, I know, I'm pushing it there).. Further, just because you haven't recognized any sort of higher power via any of your senses it doesn't mean that no one else has. I have - but I didn't get an audio recording, sorry. I can, however, refer you to that apple seed. or an egg. or the conscious mind. that's a good one: the conscious mind is made up of "unconscious matter." so.. how does it think? Feel? Wish? etc (hat tip Rupert Sheldrake)

JackRiddler wrote: Nevertheless, if there is a god,


so you have your reservations, then.

JackRiddler wrote:... clearly it wants us to be atheist, since it has set up the universe to appear as if it is absent.


again - absent to you maybe. But I think if you let yourself see the miracles you'd be aware of what many others are aware of: the evidence of 'god' is everywhere.

JackRiddler wrote: If there is a god or higher design in the universe, the first step in searching for it would be to dispense with all the false ideas of it that humans have created on the basis of their wishful thinking or to serve their power systems.


yes! this is quite right. dispense, for a second, with the notion that we only have five trustable senses, and see how different the world is.

.[/quote]
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:44 pm

slimmouse wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:Atheism is a refusal to believe in an invisible and sentient super-powerful creator-ruler-god on the sole basis of someone's say-so without evidence, or someone's expectation that you should have faith. Atheism means "without god." It is the same self-evident stance one takes with any other claims of invisible unproved phenomena that no one ever sees, but when it comes to "god" people are generally unhinged, thanks to early conditioning.


Jack, with respect,you've just made two preposterous generalisations, ( not to mention a number of ignorant inferences about the general nature of theists) within that paragraph particularly the latter. Read it again, and imagine what it sounds like to a theist.

I would probably argue that a good majority of genuinely spiritual people, have reached such a theist conculusion despite the nonsense contained within their early conditioning. Furthermore, for many people I suspect that spirtiual theism is an innate feeling. Instinctive and intuitive. And I would also suggest its very fukn widespread cos the PTB have been all over it like white on rice for their own twisted ends ever since. Hence we got "Religion". Privatisation of Spirituality if you like. Recognise the MO?



oh God yes. :D
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:07 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
slimmouse wrote:I would probably argue that a good majority of genuinely spiritual people, have reached such a theist conculusion despite the nonsense contained within their early conditioning. Furthermore, for many people I suspect that spirtiual theism is an innate feeling. Instinctive and intuitive. And I would also suggest its very fukn widespread cos the PTB have been all over it like white on rice for their own twisted ends ever since. Hence we got "Religion". Privatisation of Spirituality if you like. Recognise the MO?



oh God yes. :D


And hell yes, too.

I think that Jack was probably taking it for granted that it would be clear that by "most people" he meant "most people who are theist as a result of early conditioning by organized religion." But I don't really know, obviously. So I'll let him speak for himself.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:13 pm

compared2what? wrote:I think that Jack was probably taking it for granted that it would be clear that by "most people" he meant "most people who are theist as a result of early conditioning by organized religion." But I don't really know, obviously. So I'll let him speak for himself.


Sure. Where did I even speak of "most people," I don't know. But yeah, I mentioned early conditioning. Which can remain in place as people go on spiritual transformations and arrive at different theisms, of course.

Anyway, I found a couple of other old threads a lot like this one.

This one is apropos how most people just remain in whatever worldview they were conditioned in from the beginning:

Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherents...
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29603

Here's one mocking an earlier campaign by New Atheists - the London bus ads paid for by money Dawkins raised, which read, "There's Probably No God - Now Relax & Enjoy Your Life." Which is again exactly in the same vein as the Santa/Jesus billboard on Times Square this year, indicating that it's not a one-time fuckup but a pattern with these people to subvert the formerly liberation-minded philosophy of atheism and turn into a buttress for status-quo consumerist complacency.

There's probably no God...
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21104

This one, starting out as a slam on the worldview of the religious right and Tea Party, turned into a slug-fest of sorts:

When Facts Don't Matter
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... =8&t=31254

But it had this very, very interesting observation:

wallflower wrote:OkCupid researchers recently came out with an interesting article "The Best Questions For A First Date." http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-best-questions-for-first-dates/ The question if you want to know "Is my date religious?" is to ask: "Do spelling and grammar mistakes annoy you?" It turns out that as a group rationalist hate spelling and grammar mistakes.

SNIP

Left and left-leaning discourse online suffers from a lack of generosity. I think we often don't even notice that there's a problem because left and left-leaning folks hold vigorous rational debate in such high esteem. I fear that we often don't recognize how the psychology Street points to: "The more threatened people feel, the less likely they are to listen to dissenting opinions, and the more easily controlled they are." affects people on the left as well as the right.


How to consider this in light of our highly popular eggcorns thread?

OFF-TOPIC. By the way, to find out if your date is into sex sooner rather than later, they recommend you ask, "Do you like the taste of beer?" Since I suppose "Do you wanna get plastered and fuck on the kitchen floor" would be over-obvious.

.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:40 am

reposted below

*
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby undead » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:32 am

Concerning notions of the lack of proof or evidence for the existence of god(s) or transcendental reality, the possibility of direct experience is routinely ignored in this debate. When offered the opportunity to use ayahuasca or mushrooms in the appropriate context and method that facilitates spiritual experience, secular materialists will almost always refuse for whatever reason. Given this opportunity, the refusal to believe is really a refusal to look. Belief is not at all necessary. The same reservations applied to belief in divinities could be just as easily applied to the belief in microorganisms, atoms, and subatomic particles if the tools to directly perceive these phenomena were ignored in the same way that entheogens are ignored.

Secular materialist, reductionist thinking is a reaction against the fundamentalist dogma of the Abrahamic religions. Philosophical objections to indigenous spiritual traditions almost always involve the characterization of their practitioners as primitive. So I'm not saying that atheism is fundamentally racist, but it is an viewpoint born out of the European intellectual tradition, and defending it as the only valid viewpoint will inevitably lead to the dismissal of indigenous spirituality without giving it the investigation it is due. The outright refusal of the scientific establishment to investigate these phenomena is proof of its fundamental racism. If the purpose of western science were really to understand nature this would not be an obstacle, but we can see from this example that the purpose of western science is to subdue and enslave nature, not to understand it.

Setting aside issues with atheism in general, the need for a "New Atheism" seems to indicate that the original atheism was lacking in something. Perhaps lack of belief in divinity (or lack of belief in any particular thing) is not the best basis for a coherent ideology. Secular thinking certainly has its appropriate uses - government is the first thing that comes to mind - so maybe secular thinkers would do better to formulate their ideological identity on positive values rather than the absence of a specific belief. In the end focusing on the lack of belief in gods plays into the degraded discourse of the western tradition that has brought us to the sorry state we find ourselves in today, and it would be better to evolve into something better.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:15 pm

for edification and general hilarity: an objectivist critique of new atheist ethics.

The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists

Alan Germani

In the wake of the religiously motivated atrocities of 9/11, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens have penned best-selling books in which they condemn religious belief as destructive to human life and as lacking any basis in reality.* On the premise that religious belief as such leads to atrocities, the “New Atheists,” as these four have come to be known, criticize religion as invalid, mind-thwarting, self-perpetuating, and deadly. As Sam Harris puts it: “Because each new generation of children is taught that religious propositions need not be justified in the way that others must, civilization is still besieged by the armies of the preposterous. We are, even now, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who would have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible?”1

The problem, say the New Atheists, is not merely the “armies of the preposterous”—militant religionists such as Islamic jihadists or so-called religious extremists. The broader problem, as Harris notes, is the “larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made for faith itself. Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately opposed.”2 In other words, religious moderates shelter and fuel the religious militants of the world by espousing or condoning the beliefs that motivate them. The New Atheists want such moderates to wake up to the dangers inherent in their religions, to question their unquestioned beliefs, and to stop supporting the militants’ faith by giving it, in Dawkins’s words, undeserved respect.3

In their efforts to change the minds of such religionists, the New Atheists enumerate the absurdities of religious doctrine, from virgin births to covenants with God to harems for martyrs; they recall the atrocities to which religious belief has led, from the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem “witch” trials to 9/11; and they call for a “future of reason” and “the end of faith.”

But the New Atheists acknowledge that documenting the historical consequences of religious belief is insufficient to convince people to abandon religion. Many people cling to religion because they regard it as the only possible source for an objective morality. They believe, as Dawkins puts it, that “without God there would be no standard for deciding what is good.”4 In other words, people accept religion because they need morality; they need principles to guide their personal choices, social relations, and political institutions—and, explicitly or implicitly, they know it. Until religionists are convinced that there is a secular source for an objective morality, they will continue to cling to religion for this reason if no other. As Harris puts it:

The problem is that once we abandon our belief in a rule-making God, the question of why a given action is good or bad becomes a matter of debate. And a statement like “Murder is wrong,” while being uncontroversial in most circles, has never seemed anchored to the facts of this world in the way that statements about planets or molecules appear to be. The problem, in philosophical terms, has been one of characterizing just what sort of “facts” our moral intuitions can be said to track—if, indeed, they track anything of the kind.5


Setting aside for the moment the notion of “moral intuitions,” this passage points to a crucial truth: In order to persuade religionists to abandon their dangerous beliefs, one must do more than show what is wrong with religion—one must provide something positive to fill the moral void. One must show that an objective morality exists and that it is based not on revelation or faith but on observable facts. One must show how morality is derived via reason from sensory evidence.

What do the New Atheists offer in this regard? What morality do they espouse—and how do they arrive at its principles?

Let us turn first to the ethical ideas of Christopher Hitchens.

“We believe with certainty that an ethical life can be lived without religion,” says Hitchens of himself and his fellow atheists in the opening pages of God Is Not Great.6 Although Hitchens exerts little effort elaborating what such an ethical life entails (he focuses primarily on demonstrating the follies of religious belief and arguing for a secular and scientific vs. supernatural understanding of the universe), he does assert his ethical views in statements scattered throughout his written works and public appearances. For instance, in one passage in God Is Not Great, he posits that men are naturally selfish and opines that perhaps we would be “better mammals” if we were not.7 Asked on ABC’s Good Morning America to respond to those who ask him to consider the “good” that religion does, including its promotion of “charity” and “selflessness,” Hitchens lauded as moral those “who live their lives in effect for others”—but insisted that atheists can lead such lives, too.8 These and similar statements show that Hitchens equates morality with altruism, the notion that being ethical consists in living for others.

How does Hitchens “know” that this idea is true? What facts of reality does he cite in support of it? “[C]onscience,” says Hitchens, “is innate,” and “[e]verybody but the psychopath” has the “feeling” that this is so.9 This “innate conscience” is what makes murder and theft “abhorrent to humans without any further explanation”; it is what gives children an “innate sense of fairness”; and it is what informs each of us of our “duty to others.”10 In short, according to Hitchens, this “innate conscience” enables us to just know what is right and wrong—and altruism is right.

The notion of an “innate conscience” is, of course, not original to Hitchens; the history of philosophy is replete with appeals to a “moral sense” or “moral intuition” or “moral law within.” But although many have appealed to such a sense, none has ever been able to overcome the fact that it is observationally false that humans possess an innate sense of right and wrong: Many people, and not just psychopaths, make horrifically bad choices that ruin their own lives, the lives of others, or both. And not all of these people know that their actions are morally wrong. On the contrary, many believe that their actions are morally justified. Among the countless counterexamples one could cite against any claim to an “innate conscience” is the fact that the 9/11 hijackers regarded their murderous actions not as abhorrent, but as sublime. Did these killers—and the millions of people in the Middle East who celebrated their actions—lack an innate conscience? Or did their innate consciences house different contents than those of Americans who reacted with horror to what they did?

Ironically, the claim to innate knowledge—the claim to “just knowing” something—is precisely what Hitchens and the other New Atheists condemn when they condemn faith. Accepting an idea on faith means accepting it when there is no evidence to support it. Claiming innate knowledge amounts to the same thing: claiming to “know” something apart from evidence.

The claim to “innate knowledge,” like the claim to knowledge through faith, is a form of mysticism, the claim to a non-rational, non-sensory means of knowledge.

The fact is that moral ideas are not innate; like all ideas, they are created, chosen, learned—and they can be developed or accepted either rationally (via observation and logic) or irrationally (via non-rational means). Moral ideas can be founded on fact or based on feeling; they can be valid or invalid. The question is: How do we know whether a particular moral claim is valid or invalid? What is the standard of moral validity?

By insisting that moral ideas are innate, Hitchens shirks the vital task of identifying a moral standard—and thereby abdicates the possibility of grounding his anti-religion diatribes: How can religious belief be wrong if the “innate consciences” of billions of people tell them that it is right?

Would that this was the extent of Hitchens’s failures.

In connection with his observationally false view that morality is innate, Hitchens subscribes to the idea that man is mentally and thus morally hampered by innate irrationality. As he puts it:

Past and present religious atrocities have occurred not because we are evil, but because it is a fact of nature that the human species is, biologically, only partly rational. Evolution has meant that our prefrontal lobes are too small, our adrenal glands are too big, and our reproductive organs apparently designed by committee; a recipe which, alone or in combination, is very certain to lead to some unhappiness and disorder.11


Hitchens further claims that man has a “religious impulse” or “worshipping tendency” and that religious faith exists and is ineradicable because “we are still-evolving creatures.”12

These are curious claims coming from an intellectual who seeks to change minds about morality. If man’s ethical ideas were innate, if his biology predisposed him to irrationality, if he had no choice about whether to commit evil, then the entire field of morality—which presupposes that man does choose his actions—would not only be pointless; it would be impossible. If man cannot choose his actions, then he cannot have a guide to choosing his actions.

Although Hitchens may be adept at pointing out religious absurdities, he not only fails spectacularly when it comes to providing a valid secular alternative to the moral guidance provided by religion—he endorses essentially the same ethics as do religionists (altruism) and he arrives at this ethics by essentially the same means (mysticism). If this is the best the New Atheists have to offer in their efforts to lure people away from religion, they should not be surprised to find religionists ignoring them.

At first glance, Sam Harris appears committed to discovering a valid secular moral standard: He shows as little regard for secular viewpoints that lack such a standard as he does for religion. Harris correctly characterizes the folly of moral relativism as follows: “No one is ever really right about what he believes; he can only point to a community of peers who believe likewise. Suicide bombing isn’t really wrong, in any absolute sense; it just seems so from the parochial perspective of Western culture.” Harris also condemns pragmatism for lacking a moral standard, noting that, from its point of view, “the notion that our beliefs might ‘correspond with reality’ is absurd. Beliefs are simply tools for making one’s way in the world.” And Harris speaks frankly to the futility of holding either of these views:

To lose the conviction that you can actually be right—about anything—seems a recipe for the End of Days chaos envisioned by Yeats: when “the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.” I believe that relativism and pragmatism have already done much to muddle our thinking on a variety of subjects, many of which have more than a passing relevance to the survival of civilization.13


Eschewing relativism and pragmatism, Harris subscribes to “ethical realism,” the view that

our statements about the world will be “true” or “false” not merely in virtue of how they function amid the welter of our other beliefs, or with reference to any culture-bound criteria, but because reality simply is a certain way, independent of our thoughts. . . . To be an ethical realist is to [color=#BF0000]believe that in ethics, as in physics, there are truths waiting to be discovered—and thus we can be right or wrong in our beliefs about them.[/color]14


Such passages in Harris’s works raise hope that he will identify and advocate a reality-based alternative to the ethics of religion and relativism. Unfortunately, however, Harris, like Hitchens, “grounds” his ethics in innate knowledge, which he labels “intuition.”15

According to Harris, there is a point at which “we can break our knowledge of a thing down no further,” a point at which we must anchor our ethical and other ideas to reality by taking “irreducible leaps” via “intuition,” which he says is the “most basic constituent of our faculty of understanding.”16

Why does an “ethical realist,” who claims to believe that ethical truths are waiting in reality to be discovered, insist that ethics must be grounded “intuitively,” via “irreducible leaps,” rather than rationally, via direct observations of reality? Because, Harris’s paean to a discoverable ethics notwithstanding, he subscribes to the neo-Kantian view that our sense perceptions are “structured, edited, or amplified by the nervous system” to the point that “[n]o human being has ever experienced an objective world, or even a world at all.”17

Although there is a long philosophical tradition that denies the validity of the senses, and although such skepticism remains fashionable to this day, the validity of the senses is self-evident: We rely on our senses all day, every day to ascertain the facts of reality. If our senses were invalid, we would have no means by which to determine whether it is safe to cross the street, whether our food is sufficiently cooked, or whether the phone is ringing. If our senses were invalid, we would have no means of identifying any such facts, and we could not function or live.

The fact is that the “most basic constituent of our faculty of understanding” is not “intuition,” but sense perception—our mind’s basic contact with reality. And those who try to deny the validity of the senses must rely on that very validity in the process of doing so. In order to put his denial in print, for instance, a skeptic author must rely on his sense of touch to convey his thoughts through his keyboard; he must rely on his vision to see his monitor and confirm that his keystrokes have correctly formed his intended words and sentences; he must rely on the vision of an editor to read his manuscript and on his own sense of hearing to field the editor’s phone calls; he must rely on the sensory perception of thousands of people involved in the printing, marketing, and distribution of his tract; and he must rely on the vision of his readers if they are to gain knowledge of his remarkable assertion that “[n]o human being has ever experienced an objective world, or even a world at all.”18

Fashionable though it may be to deny the validity of the senses, doing so makes no sense. Nor is it a sound strategy for persuading people, as Harris hopes to do, that ethical truths, like physical truths, are “waiting to be discovered.”

Because Harris denies the possibility of knowing reality, it should come as no surprise that he, like Hitchens, defaults to the “just knowing” view of ethics. Unlike Hitchens, however, Harris specifies a moral standard.

Our “intuitions,” he says, tell us that the standard of the good is “happiness” and that the standard of the evil is “suffering.” Does this mean that one should promote one’s own life by pursuing happiness and by avoiding suffering? No, says Harris, such pursuits and avoidances do not qualify as moral; an act “becomes a matter of ethics only when the happiness of others is also at stake”—at which point we have “ethical responsibilities” toward them.19 Does this mean that we should reward those who bring value to our lives? No, says Harris, to “treat others ethically” is to set aside one’s own selfish interests and to “act out of concern for their happiness and suffering. It is, as Kant observed, to treat them as ends in themselves rather than as a means to some further end.”20

On Harris’s account, we are morally obliged to promote the happiness and reduce the suffering of others, whatever the consequence to our own lives may be.

[I]t is one thing to think it “wrong” that people are starving elsewhere in the world; it is another to find this as intolerable as one would if these people were one’s friends. There may, in fact, be no ethical justification for all of us fortunate people to carry on with our business while other people starve. . . . It may be that a clear view of the matter . . . would oblige us to work tirelessly to alleviate the hunger of every last stranger as though it were our own. On this account, how could one go to the movies and remain ethical? One couldn’t. One would simply be taking a vacation from one’s ethics.21


Like Hitchens, Harris advocates altruism, the notion that being moral consists in living for the sake of others, or, more precisely, in self-sacrificially serving others. And although Harris acknowledges that “there are millions of people whose faith moves them to perform extraordinary acts of self-sacrifice for the benefit of others,” he claims that “there are far better reasons for self-sacrifice than those that religion provides.”22

The best “reason” for self-sacrifice, says Harris, is that “the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness; and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others.” This, he says, “suggests a clear link between ethics [by which Harris means altruism] and positive human emotions. The fact that we want the people we love to be happy, and are made happy by love in turn, is an empirical observation.”23

The happiness that Harris advocates is not the happiness that comes from the achievement of one’s own self-interested, life-promoting values. Rather, it is a “higher happiness,” which allegedly comes from sacrificing one’s own interests for the sake of others.24

What if someone, in his self-sacrificial service to others, fails to achieve this “higher happiness”? Harris says that he should rectify the situation by meditating and liberating himself from the “illusion of the self” that is the “string upon which all [his] states of suffering and dissatisfaction are strung.”25 And what if this person still fails to intuitively grasp the sacrificial essence of ethics? Then, says Harris, he may be precluded from “taking part in any serious discussion” of morality.26

Far from demonstrating how ethical truths might be discovered by reference to the facts of reality, Harris severs moral inquiry from reality by denying the validity of the senses, embraces self-sacrifice as the essence of morality, “grounds” this principle in “intuition,” and then attempts to intimidate those who challenge the propriety of that code or method. Further, like Hitchens, he maintains that man is both impaired by immoral intuitions that “lurk inside every human mind” and predisposed to religious belief.27 And, lest he leave open the possibility that man can choose to act contrary to his intuitions and predispositions, Harris explicitly denies the existence of free will.28 Without choice, it is worth reiterating, morality has no meaning, and books such as Harris’s are an exercise in futility. Again, if this is the best the New Atheists have to offer in the realm of morality, they should not be surprised when their bestsellers fail to change many minds.

Like Hitchens and Harris, both Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins hold that being moral consists in self-sacrificially serving others. Dennett regards as moral those who are “making the world better by their efforts, inspired by their conviction that their lives [are] not their own to dispose of as they choose” and willing to let their “own mundane preoccupations . . . shrink to proper size” (Dennett’s emphasis) because they are “not all that important in the greater scheme of things.”29 He regards as immoral those who are “self-absorbed,” “self-centered,” and who “slack off on the sacrifice and good works” in which they ought to engage.30 Similarly, Dawkins regards as moral those who are “altruistic,” and as immoral those who are “selfish.”31

Dawkins, like Hitchens and Harris, claims that man possesses innate moral ideas, but he posits an evolutionary basis for them, saying that, “in ancestral times when we lived in small and stable bands like baboons,” natural selection “programmed into our brains altruistic urges,” which he characterizes as “Darwinian mistakes: blessed and precious mistakes.”32 Dawkins also holds that humans are predisposed to religious belief—but, again, he posits an evolutionary explanation for the idea and, in the process, references a theory of Dennett’s that our irrational tendency toward religion is “a by-product of a particular built-in irrationality mechanism in the brain: our tendency, which presumably has genetic advantages, to fall in love.”33

Of course, the same objections to Hitchens and Harris’s positions on these matters apply to Dennett and Dawkins’s: If man’s views of “right” and “wrong” spring from innate ideas (genetically rooted or otherwise), or if he is biologically predisposed to irrationality, then morality, the realm of chosen values, simply does not apply to man. According to Dennett and Dawkins, however, ethics is not derived merely from innate ideas; social consensus also plays a role.

Dennett says that “no factual investigation” could answer “questions about ultimate values” and that “we can do no better than to sit down and reason together, a political process of mutual persuasion and education that we can try to conduct in good faith.”34 In other words, because we cannot derive moral principles from facts (the old “is–ought dichotomy”),35 we should survey existing ethical views and accept those that are most popular. Although Dawkins agrees that ethics must be rooted in moral consensus, he says that we can forgo Dennett’s extended ethical chat—because such a consensus already exists.

Citing some of the horrors found in the Old and New Testaments, Dawkins observes that today “we do not, as a matter of fact, derive our morals from scripture. Or, if we do, we pick and choose among the scriptures for the nice bits and reject the nasty.”36 He notes that if we derived our morals from scripture, “we would strictly observe the sabbath and think it just and proper to execute anybody who chose not to. We would stone to death any new bride who couldn’t prove she was a virgin, if her husband pronounced himself unsatisfied with her. We would execute disobedient children.”37 Because we do pick and choose, he says, “we must have some independent criterion for deciding which are the moral bits: a criterion which, wherever it comes from, cannot come from scripture itself and is presumably available to all of us whether we are religious or not.”38

The “independent criterion” by which Dawkins denounces the story of the biblical flood as evil and by which he praises Jesus as “surely one of the great ethical innovators of history”39 is what he calls the “moral Zeitgeist.”

[T]here is a consensus about what we do as a matter of fact consider right and wrong: a consensus that prevails surprisingly widely. . . . With notable exceptions such as the Afghan Taliban and the American Christian equivalent, most people pay lip service to the same broad liberal consensus of ethical principles. The majority of us don’t cause needless suffering; we believe in free speech and protect it even if we disagree with what is being said; we pay our taxes; we don’t cheat, don’t kill, don’t commit incest, don’t do things to others that we would not wish done to us.40


An important attribute of Dawkins’s “somewhat mysterious consensus” is that it evolves over time. This shifting “moral Zeitgeist,” then, would explain why civilized people today look with horror upon the numerous instances of biblical heroes committing or condoning rape and mass murder, whereas the Bible’s authors—with their ancient ethical mindsets—did not think twice about portraying such real or imagined events as magnificent.

To illustrate this evolving morality, Dawkins points to several examples from the past two hundred years. For instance, whereas just a few decades ago it was uncontroversial in the West to hold that blacks were intellectually inferior to whites and that women were intellectually inferior to men, such views seem shocking today. Attitudes regarding civilian casualties have similarly changed; Dawkins points out that “Donald Rumsfeld, who sounds so callous and odious today, would have sounded like a bleeding-heart liberal if he had said the same things during the Second World War.”41

But Dawkins’s theory of the “moral Zeitgeist” clearly does not solve the problem of how to validate moral ideas by reference to reality; it just treats collective opinion as though it were objective fact. That a changing moral consensus exists and that most people unthinkingly absorb their moral views through social osmosis does not mean that the consensus is correct or that people should acquire their moral views this way. Although Dawkins acknowledges that we can and must judge the contents of the Bible by reference to an independent moral standard, he fails to recognize that we can and must judge the social consensus by reference to the same.

Any attempt to ground morality in social consensus—whether of Dennett’s “we democratically agree on it” variety or of Dawkins’s “mysteriously shifting” variety—is hopelessly non-objective. Either the consensus is always right, or it can be wrong. If it is always right, then morality is subjective and simple: Morality equals popular opinion, whatever that happens to be at the time. If this is the case, there are no objective moral principles; there are only ever-changing social policies. If this is the case, the New Atheists have no grounds on which to condemn the inhuman religiosity of the Middle Ages, for its crimes were moral by the standards of the then-contemporary “Zeitgeist.” If the consensus can be wrong, however, then there must be an objective standard by reference to which it can be assessed.

For all their noise, the New Atheists fail to identify such a standard. While decrying faith, they fail to show that morality can be based on reason and thus grounded in reality. They fail to offer anything essentially different from the religionists whom they condemn, instead joining them in the belief that moral knowledge can only be gained by non-rational means.

Why do these alleged men of reason join men of faith in appealing to mysticism as a basis for morality? The reason is simple: The morality they seek to defend, altruism, cannot be grounded in reason or reality. There are no facts that give rise to the principle that a person should sacrifice himself for the sake of others. Those who maintain that being moral consists in being altruistic have no alternative but to base that belief on some form of mysticism—whether “innate ideas,” or “intuition,” or a “mysterious consensus,” or religious faith. The New Atheists may have omitted God from their ethics, but their ethics remains essentially the same as that of the religions they condemn: a mystical call to self-sacrifice.

In today’s predominantly religious world, it takes some measure of courage to criticize faith and challenge the existence of God—and Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, and Dawkins deserve some measure of credit for doing so. But it takes greater courage to challenge the even more widespread belief that being moral consists in self-sacrificially serving others. If the New Atheists are serious about convincing people to abandon religion and adopt a rational secular worldview, then they must find the courage to follow reason wherever it leads—even if it leads them, as it will, to challenge the validity of altruism.

Fortunately for those who do have the courage to follow reason and challenge the validity of altruism, Ayn Rand has already discovered, demonstrated, and codified a morality based on and derived from the demonstrable requirements of human life, happiness, and coexistence: rational egoism. By first asking the question “Why does man need morality?” she proceeded to discover that man, as a being who must make choices, needs morality as a guide to life-promoting action. She discovered that man’s life is the standard of moral value—which means that actions that advance man’s life are moral and that those that retard or destroy man’s life are immoral.

Unlike religion and secular altruism, rational egoism neither entails nor permits any claim on the lives of other men. It holds that each man should act in his own best interest and that each man is the proper beneficiary of his own thought and action. And because egoism recognizes that it is right for a man to think and act in his self-interest, it also recognizes that it is wrong for others to violate this right through physical force or fraud. Rational egoism not only serves to guide an individual’s actions; it also serves as the foundation for a rights-respecting, civilized society.

It is beyond the purpose of this article to elaborate the ethics of rational egoism. But those who see the glaring need for a rational (i.e., non-mystical), life-serving (i.e., non-sacrificial) morality—a morality for living and achieving happiness on Earth—will find it elaborated in the works of Ayn Rand.42



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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:03 pm

undead wrote:Concerning notions of the lack of proof or evidence for the existence of god(s) or transcendental reality, the possibility of direct experience is routinely ignored in this debate. When offered the opportunity to use ayahuasca or mushrooms in the appropriate context and method that facilitates spiritual experience, secular materialists will almost always refuse for whatever reason.


Who's offering this opportunity? Speaking for myself, and assuming a protected, legal context, I'd leap. Set me up.

Anything that happens is material, by the way. Natural/supernatural is a false dichotomy. Things either are or they aren't.

Philosophical objections to indigenous spiritual traditions almost always involve the characterization of their practitioners as primitive. So I'm not saying that atheism is fundamentally racist, but it is an viewpoint born out of the European intellectual tradition, and


This is an untrue assertion and I would say it borders on racist because it implies that only Europeans could come up with certain ideas. Every region has atheists. Probably the largest proportion of atheists in the world are found, not in Europe, but in China.

The assertion is also historically untrue. Every major tradition has had skeptics and disbelievers, dating back to before anyone had ever conceived of a "European intellectual tradition." Buddhism is arguably atheist, and has atheist traditions. Hinduism has had its atheists for thousands of years. (See: Atheism in Hinduism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism)

I'm sure you'd agree it would be atrocious to imply that every non-European people has some kind of hive mind where they all believe the same thing without dissent.

defending it as the only valid viewpoint will inevitably lead to the dismissal of indigenous spirituality without giving it the investigation it is due.


Cartoonish misrepresentation. This is a problem of fundamentalism generally, not atheism. Also, valid viewpoint on what? The world is a big place. Whether or not there is a sentient ruler-god-creator is only one question, and not necessarily the most important. I don't get the impression that the God that atheism rejects is present in most indigenous spirituality.

The outright refusal of the scientific establishment to investigate these phenomena is proof of its fundamental racism.


You'll have to be more specific. Which part of which establishment is refusing to investigate this phenomenon? Also, are science and an atheistic stance now supposed to be the same thing? (That would be a win for the New Atheists, I suppose.)

If the purpose of western science were really to understand nature this would not be an obstacle, but we can see from this example that the purpose of western science is to subdue and enslave nature, not to understand it.


At this point generalization.

Setting aside issues with atheism in general, the need for a "New Atheism" seems to indicate that the original atheism was lacking in something.


Or that a bunch of right-wing establishment types would like to clean up atheism to please their bourgeois mentality, and turn it into some kind of bulwark of the status quo.

Perhaps lack of belief in divinity (or lack of belief in any particular thing) is not the best basis for a coherent ideology.


This statement makes me think you've given atheist thinking about as much consideration as you claim "Western science" has given to "indigenous religion."

In the end focusing on the lack of belief in gods plays into the degraded discourse of the western tradition that has brought us to the sorry state we find ourselves in today, and it would be better to evolve into something better.


Ahem. The Western tradition is theistic. It believes in God. It calls itself Christian. The true destroyers of indigenous peoples and their religions were committed Christians - conquerors and missionaries. Looks like atheists are a kind of dumping ground for you. All the centuries of the Christian, Western tradition led us to this "sorry state," which, as a final joke, you get to blame in toto on atheists or secular thinking.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby yathrib » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:05 pm

It seems to me that the biggest problems people have with the New Atheism is that its proponents are very unpleasant, and their arguments are pretty much unanswerable. True, they generally ignore Sophisticated Theology, but so does virtually every actually existing believer.

I don't consider myself an atheist, but I certainly reject any concept of God put forward by any of the major organized religions. It's been a long road to that destination, and I have people like Dawkins to thank for helping me think clearly enough to get there. Them, and the hypocrisy and absurd dogmatism of every religion I've so far encountered.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby undead » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:11 pm

Jack Riddler wrote:I don't get the impression that the God that atheism rejects is present in most indigenous spirituality.


That says something about your variety of atheism, and I don't think you can really characterize atheism as as a single coherent (meaning specific and contained) ideology. It is a set of viewpoints that exclude certain beliefs about god, depending on who is defining it. So to be clear I have no problems with atheists in general and when I characterize atheism in my previous post I refer to the reductionist view that is common among evangelist atheist types that make their non-belief an issue to proselytize about. These "New Atheist" types are of this variety. Most people who don't believe in God have better things to do than argue about it perpetually, and if they don't have the attitude that their view is the only rational and correct one then most of the criticisms I made don't really apply.

Jack Riddler wrote:
undead wrote:defending it as the only valid viewpoint will inevitably lead to the dismissal of indigenous spirituality without giving it the investigation it is due.


Cartoonish misrepresentation. This is a problem of fundamentalism generally, not atheism.


There can be fundamentalist atheism as well as fundamentalist religion, and the results have proven to be basically the same in the cases of China and the USSR, who committed the same crimes against tribal peoples within their jurisdiction that European imperialists did for hundreds of years. Tuvan people, tribal Siberian peoples, and practitioners of chi gong (not only Falun Gong) are just some of the groups that were targeted for persecution because of their religion under these openly atheist regimes.

I should also be more clear that by "indigenous spirituality" I refer to archaic forms of worship that preceded organized religions. These involve nature worship, ancestor worship, and / or the use of sacred plants, and they have existed consistently throughout the planet before the more organized forms of religion emerged. So Buddhism and even Hinduism and the religion of the Vedas would not be included in this group.

So I maintain that it doesn't even make sense to speak of "atheism" categorically when it includes such a wide variety of beliefs, and that the fundamentalist version (espoused by Hitchens, Dawkins, et al.) which claims to hold the only valid view on the subject is equally ignorant and robotic as the religious fundamentalism it claims to oppose.

Jack Riddler wrote:Ahem. The Western tradition is theistic. It believes in God. It calls itself Christian. The true destroyers of indigenous peoples and their religions were committed Christians - conquerors and missionaries. Looks like atheists are a kind of dumping ground for you. All the centuries of the Christian, Western tradition led us to this "sorry state," which, as a final joke, you get to blame in toto on atheists or secular thinking.


Yes the western tradition is theistic. I do not blame the current situation in toto on atheists, I only point out that to make theism vs. non-theism the central issue is to continue the discourse of a theistic tradition, rather that progressing to something better. And in the end promoting atheism (of any variety) is not going to bring about any increase in rationality, nor will it alleviate the detrimental effects of religious fundamentalism. It is true that educated, liberal societies (European ones, for example) tend to produce more rational people who are more likely to be atheists, but this does not mean that promoting atheism will increase rationality. Serving up a new ideology for people to uncritically believe will result in the same fundamentalism,

So anyway, it is a shame that Hitchens and Dawkins are misrepresenting a relatively benign and usually positive viewpoint. If I were an atheist I would be annoyed, for sure.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Luther Blissett » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:37 pm

I finally got through the original article after trying to read most of it on my phone. That was quite a long read but well worth it. I took a great deal of notes to follow up on for projects completely divorced from the subject of atheism. I can only imagine that this is only aimed at those whose lives seem to be devoured by atheism, for which it is their primary thrust in life.

At first I was confused. I thought that, as an atheist, arbiter of subculture and movements, and activist I had missed a major advancement that combined all three. I didn't expect to be reading about Harris, I expected to be reading about trans* teenagers in Hungary. Is A+ really all that common of a term? "Social justice" has such a strong (sometimes misguided, sometimes myopic, sometimes hurtful or judgmental, but almost always enthusiastically "good") current with young people today that a great amount of it crosses over with non-belief, especially given that non-belief is at an all-time high with people in their 20's. Most seem to disdain Hitchens as an imperialist.

Reddit as a whole is a precise target for the essay. A massive global community whose main identifiers are: technologically and culturally savvy; literate; educated; young; logical; "hip"; liberal; and atheist; yet are still in many ways "centrists" and adoptive of masses of centrist doctrine. They will adopt leftists causes insofar as they do not embarrass them or make them uncomfortable in any way. There's not a lot of sacrifice presented as a pillar in that community.

As a side note, on the forum that I share with my extended circle of friends, I recently had a fight about Jesus of Nazareth. Two of the approved intellectuals were very offended when I spoke about my skepticism surrounding the reality of Jesus as a man. One of them, whose undergraduate degree was in History, said that most historians accept that there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth, apart from the myth of the Christ and any of his acts. They point to his baptism and crucifixion as independently verified "facts" of his existence, but I remain skeptical. Romans celebrated crucifixions as often as we do sporting events, and any "witnesses" to the baptism (only one disciple, from whom the others copied, Justin Martyr, Tacitus, and Josephus as far as I remember) were writing about it fourdecades after the event. Apocalyptic street preachers like John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth were common fixtures in the holy land. If there was a consensus amongst historians, I wanted to see how they spent their Sunday mornings. I asked whether all the other winter solstice saviors from antiquity represented revisionist history or whether it was pure coincidence but I didn't get a response.

There, that last paragraph is a fine example of snarky agnostic skepticism.
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