Why Eckhart Tolle’s Evolutionary Activism Won’t Save Us

[Searcher08]

Finally To give this discussion a more personal slant , I have to ask this of you.

Having posted any number of critiques on here from people that are far worse in intention than their subject ,David Icke will ever be, with both affiliations and track records to back up my assertion, What am I then to make of you ?

If I was at a meeting , and our paths crossed, what should I tell people about you, knowing the sources that you have quoted, and apparently hold great store in ? Where is the devil, to your own mind in this, and where is he in mine?

We all have plenty to be wary of.

Here we get at the pretzel logic of the true believer in David Icke and/or other such "intellectual" leaders. If anyone is critical of the great leader, we can surely link them to other skeptics we don't like and thus totally avoid the substance of their critique. It is through these sorts of ad hominems that you and others have skirted the issue again and again...and again...

I don't though have the impression that you are a "bad" person, slim. You strike me as a sincere person who does pretty much subscribe to the world view which David Icke promotes.

And there's the rub...

Imagine that there are six modes of thinking
RED
For what one feels. There is no need to justify a feeling - it is just what one feels
WHITE
For factual information - is this a fact? How likely is it to be a fact? Think WhoWhatWhenWhere and How
BLACK
Logical Negative - why something is in error, or does not to work - like debugging a piece of software or doing a pre-flight check on a plane. The dangers. How things may fail
YELLOW
Logical Positive - systematically selecting features and their benefits in a situation.
GREEN
Design and creative thinking. Systematically breaking patterns. Looking where ideas lead TO, rather than Truth. Provocation.
BLUE
Outcomes. Focuses. Goals. Planning. Intention

My perception of the paraculture conversation is that
Slim and C_W are primarily focused on YELLOW (what are the features and benefits) and GREEN
(What useful ideas might cme out of it)
AD is primarily focused on BLACK (whether something holds up to analysis and how it might fail)
and WHITE (the actual 'real world' facts - Who What When Where and Why and How)

AD RED - Concern? - Perhaps that... what he is pointing out and can clearly see is being ignored / obfuscated by intelligent people with good hearts
CW / Slim RED Concern? - that plus points and different thinking is being removed / threatened by an intelligent person with a good heart.

[Searcher08]

Searcher, I think your critique of a certain kind of leftist is spot on but it surely does not describe all those on the left. Not by a long shot.

Many can and do wed the spiritual to the political everyday. Without needing any of the "New Age" baggage of Oprah-certified stars like Tolle, we are making do-it-yourself art, raising babies, distributing free food to all who need, playing music in the park, building community gardens- and meditating in them!, building up squats, standiing in solidarity with the most poor and oppressed, etc. etc.

And all without nary a mention of Tolle or Icke!

I knooow, I knoooow -
I have been in that generic interminable "Oh God if this continues I am going to gnaw my own fists off" Union 'meeting' many times and also seen organisational 'New Age Sharks' at work.

What you described is a very sensory-rich and enrolling picture.

For me, there is a saying I have found to be incredibly powerful -
"You wont see HOW to do something, until you SEE yourself doing it"
In other words, SENSORY REPRESENTATION preceeds PROCESS.

I think that there is less engagement with action because... many many people do not have the positve internal pictures that you just painted and perhaps are now second-nature to you. When they cry "HOW? WHAT DO I DO?" that may be a clue that they do not actually have a picture of what it could LOOK LIKE first...

I find there is a poignant aspect to this - so many people just second-guess themselves into inaction "I couldnt do that BECAUSE... X,Y,Z..."

[Canadian_watcher]

excellent, excellent posts, Searcher.

There is an impasse here but it's more in communication style and perception of "other people" than it is about end goals. it's about the way there rather than the destination.

AD I have a great deal of respect for you as I do for most everyone on the board here. In spite of my discomfort I'm glad we're all having this conversation.

[Searcher08]

I have to revise my previous comments on more careful reading and agree with bph. The above comments extracted from Searcher are reflective of no sort of leftist I have ever seen or heard of in my life.

Rather, they are the grossest sort of strawman slur against logic and critical thinking that I have heard in quite a long while.

Where were the previous worst slurs against logic and critical thinking coming from?

Don't ask...

What??
After replying to your delightful post which I felt was very in tune with the humourous intent of what I was saying, two questions from BPH resulted in you revising what you wrote to the above??
<sighs>

I worked as an IT consultant for a large Union in the U.K. for a couple of years. For the most part they were decent people individually, but when they got into meetings (which they did a LOT) - there was more than a passing resemblence to my exaggerated satire. I also went to in-depth weekend Marxist study groups and found similar behaviours.

I need to point out that

Rather, they are the grossest sort of strawman slur against logic and critical thinking that I have heard in quite a long while.

Given that I loved studying logics (there is more than one, you know) to graduate level, the idea of me dissing logic seems pretty unlikely.
I do get pissed off when you refuse to answer question about WHICH logic you use and why?
You seem to subscribe to a classical logic where something either IS or IS-NOT
That is not the only way to do logic and I far prefer Entailment / Relevance Logic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic

As for my issues with critical thinking, they are at a different logical level - my issue is that you think it is ALL that it is needed - which is demonstrable nonsense, for which I refer you to any book on the innovation process.

[Searcher08]

excellent, excellent posts, Searcher.

There is an impasse here but it's more in communication style and perception of "other people" than it is about end goals. it's about the way there rather than the destination.

AD I have a great deal of respect for you as I do for most everyone on the board here. In spite of my discomfort I'm glad we're all having this conversation.

Thank you C_W
I think that this conversation is WAY ahead of any conversation we have had like it in the past. I feel there is more goodwill as a background and that is really important.

[brainpanhandler]

(grossly) exaggerated satire.

Some context: I am a member of a worker's cooperative. Before that I ran a small company, in as democratic a fashion as I could.

Characterizing cooperative effort as idiots without the ability to solve as basic a problem as fixing a water pump is not useful in any way.

[Searcher08]

(grossly) exaggerated satire.

Some context: I am a member of a worker's cooperative. Before that I ran a small company, in as democratic a fashion as I could.

Characterizing cooperative effort as idiots without the ability to solve as basic a problem as fixing a water pump is not useful in any way.

My intention was neither to diss co-operatives (given I think Mondragon Corporation is a great example of Beer's 'Viable System Model' in action and the way to go...) or the trials of running a small company, one of the most difficult things capabilities to do well that I know.

[brainpanhandler]

(grossly) exaggerated satire.

Some context: I am a member of a worker's cooperative. Before that I ran a small company, in as democratic a fashion as I could.

Characterizing cooperative effort as idiots without the ability to solve as basic a problem as fixing a water pump is not useful in any way.

My intention was neither to diss co-operatives (given I think Mondragon Corporation is a great example of Beer's 'Viable System Model' in action and the way to go...) or the trials of running a small company, one of the most difficult things capabilities to do well that I know.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were specifically doing either of those things. Like you (see below) I was just providing some context so as to help you understand where I am coming from. I find that is often useful. That's why I wrote, "Some context:"

I worked as an IT consultant for a large Union in the U.K. for a couple of years. For the most part they were decent people individually, but when they got into meetings (which they did a LOT) - there was more than a passing resemblence to my exaggerated satire. I also went to in-depth weekend Marxist study groups and found similar behaviours.

Democratic self governance, collective bargaining, cooperative management...these are messy processes and sometimes embarrassingly ineffectual, but infinitely preferable to infantilizing, heirarchical power dynamics.

This:

Collectivist Critical Thinkers: Village Social Action Stakeholders Steering Group
The village water pump has stopped working...
"Are we a quorum to establish a critical thinking discussion group on this matter?"
"No, we need to wait till Fred finishes his lunch - Procedure 3.4.2(1) says
"NO WORKER SHALL BE CALLED TO A COMMITTEE WITHOUT FIRST FINISHING THEIR LUNCH"...
...Two hours later
"First we must consider this action as a possible SABOTAGE against our workers collective. Are we unananimous in dealing with this threat?"
"Well, I disagree with the word SABOTAGE, it may not be accurate in this situation - I think we should form a discussion group on whether that word accurately reflects what may have happened."
"I think remark that is a deeply troubling course of action and that we need to consider the reasons why Comrade X is NOT accepting the word SABOTAGE"
two hours later...
"I think you are verging on a logical fallacy error Comrade X!"
"That is an ad-hominem Comrade Y!"
... 4 hours later
"We shall now discuss the rationing procedures - do we apply equal rations to each person or do we show preferences for oppressed groups?"
"Well, I think kids should be given more"
"No they shouldnt"
"Yes they should"
"Provide evidence why"
"Provide evidence why not"
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
... 4 hours later
"Anyone else getting really thirsty?"
"Yeah.. anyone know how to fix a water pump?..."
"Err..nope"
"Whose responsibility was this?"
"It was a system fault. Lessons need to be learned and procedures will need to be changed"
"Anyone else getting really thirsty?"
"Let's raid the next village - they have water - from each according to their... resources to each according to their needs. And I desperately need something to drink."
"Carried."
...

..serves no good purpose whatsoever and it does not square at all with any experience I have ever had of collective action. It's more the sort of thing I would expect to read on a Fox News blog.

[ShinShinKid]

From running the businesses in the farmer's markets, I can tell you; you can certainly get ahead of everyone using capitalist right-wing business techniques, they're obviously proven...but you leave a trail of human wreckage behind you. It's much better to bring everybody up, all together, now! And, no, nary a word of any new-age gurus, for the most part...unless those richies in the yoga pants come in again with their vanilla chai soy frappacino half caffs...they like to bring us all up to speed on how we could make all kinds of money!

Seriously though, in the people's movements, you are more likely to hear the philosophies of Marleyism, Pink Floyd, and yes, Dylan sometimes even Guns n (f*cking) Roses, too.

edited.

[compared2what?]

Swimmers who imagined that they had hands the size of paddles were able to swim faster.... it doesnt mean they believed there hands were paddles... call it a Proto-Truth - a useful thing to have in one's mind during swimming. Just because something is not true, does not mean it cant be extremely useful.

Creating a vision (a detailed three-dimensional representation) of an end result generally helps in the attaining of it, particularly if there appears to be little evidence of it coming about.
A vision is inherently NOT true - it is NOT a reality
A vision is really a proto-truth - it allows you to know that you have actually achieved something

Not by itself. But I'm sure that's what you meant.

One of my issues with the 'Left' is that there is traditionally a lot of bunk about having to feel angry and upset when things are a certain way in the outside world. To me, 95% of the time when I have come across a really angry person, I come across someone who is wasting their energy.

I have seen no evidence that the Left identifies this as an issue.

You haven't?

Seriously? That's shocking.

"Don't mourn, organize!" is an expression often incorrectly supposed to be the last words spoken by activist and songwriter Joe Hill, who was charged with murder and executed in Utah in 1915. In truth, the expression is part of a telegram sent to Bill Haywood, in which Joe wrote, "Goodbye, Bill, I die like a true blue rebel. Don't waste any time mourning. Organize!" It wasn't Joe's last telegram; he sent another in which he implored Haywood, "Could you arrange to have my body hauled to the state line to be buried? I don't want to be found dead in Utah."[1]

Since the death of Hill, the phrase has been used in association with other labour leaders' deaths. It is particularly popular within the Industrial Workers of the World. The phrase has also been used in conjunction with a severe defeat and not the death of an individual.[2]

The phrase is popular enough in its association with Joe Hill and the labour movement that it was the title of a music compilation made in 1990 and released by Smithsonian Folkways. The full title is Don't Mourn — Organize!: Songs of Labor Songwriter Joe Hill.

The phrase has been used as recently as 2010. After the death of Howard Zinn, a Boston Globe article was titled with this phrase.[3]

(LINK)
____________

I know. But that's a semantic distinction. Anger is part of it. Arguably the chief part, as it's generally used. (Depends on the context, obviously.) Besides which, it's just the first example that happened to occur to me. There are any number of others. So if you want more, just ask.

(edited for format.)

[Canadian_watcher]

all activists are labeled as angry, always.
and anger is "bad"
saying activists are angry is a defense tactic, not a reality, IMO. Not that they never are, and justifiably so, but the link between "anger" and "wrong" is very, very prevalent in our culture, unfortunately.

I view it as a trap which works thus:
if you get screwed over and get 'angry' about it you will often receive justice but a lot of people will distance themselves from you for your behaviour.
if you get screwed over and stay polite and nice about it justice is often delayed if it ever comes at all but you'll still have all of your friends and family behind you.



I grew up in a household where I had a seriously angry father and a mother who thought anger was unacceptable at any time except for when my father was hitting his kids, of course).

sorry - pretty OT, I know. carry on.

[Canadian_watcher]

(grossly) exaggerated satire.

Some context: I am a member of a worker's cooperative. Before that I ran a small company, in as democratic a fashion as I could.

Characterizing cooperative effort as idiots without the ability to solve as basic a problem as fixing a water pump is not useful in any way.

it was funny AND I've sat in meetings like that, myself.

[compared2what?]

l
As someone who lives with depression and anxiety which at times is unbelievably devastating I can tell you that repeating positive messages is in fact one of the most helpful things I can do to recover from an episode. If the only good thing that ever comes from someone like Tolle is to help people who are sick in the same way that I am to get to higher ground well then, that's good enough.

It's more than good enough, it's a boon to the world. I didn't say that yesterday because I thought it would just look like I was being an unrealistically goody-two-shoes apple-polishing show-off for brownie points. Which it probably does.

But it was still cowardly not to respond. Because it's just not okay to leave someone who says this in the lurch as to whether anybody's answer is basically:

"Well, tough luck for you, but you're just going to have to bite the bullet and/or live in shame when it comes to that irrelevant little devastating-depression-and-anxiety thing you've got going on, because social/political shit comes first!"

I'm absolutely positive that nobody on the thread thinks that, or is capable of it. But since it can't hurt to say so: On those terms, that's a beautiful, positive thing that doesn't necessarily have any direct relationship to social/political issues, although -- as it happens -- it's a beneficial one when it does.

As I understand it, the problem arises because Tolle is so aggressive about expanding the terms past the limit of the realistically beneficial. But that doesn't mean everyone who reads him is, too. It's just a critique of something that's open to specific criticism.

And, um....Sorry I'm me. But I mean it. Pretend it's someone else.

[Canadian_watcher]

From running the businesses in the farmer's markets, I can tell you; you can certainly get ahead of everyone using capitalist right-wing business techniques, they're obviously proven...but you leave a trail of human wreckage behind you. It's much better to bring everybody up, all together, now! And, no, nary a word of any new-age gurus, for the most part...unless those richies in the yoga pants come in again with their vanilla chai soy frappacino half caffs...they like to bring us all up to speed on how we could make all kinds of money!

Seriously though, in the people's movements, you are more likely to hear the philosophies of Marleyism, Pink Floyd, and yes, Dylan sometimes even Guns n (f*cking) Roses, too.

edited.

okay one more OT.
when I do shows and interact directly with customers I get told off now and then by other artists, my husband, random buyers even! all because I'll sometimes make these deals that seem stupid to them. "You're WAY undercharging!!" "That guy TOTALLY would have paid more!" etc... But I'm just not in to getting something for nothing, or taking advantage of people, or whatever it is you have to be in your soul to put profit ahead of people. I make a profit. I'm happy, they're happy. Since in the end all I'd be after with the money is more happiness I see no reason to get more money if the happiness is already there for the enjoying!

[Searcher08]

Hi c2w? - Yes - as an inscription from an old English gravestone says much more eloquently than I did...
A vision without a task is but a dream,
a task without a vision is drudgery,
a vision and a task is the hope of the world.

That was a great story re Joe Hill. I think mourning is an important emotion to go through - I took it that Joe Hill would regard the greatest tribute to him as being concerted action rather than words, which was his own highest principal.

bph -
Useful for no one? Really? Or just not for yourself because it doesnt speak to or match your experience?
What if elements of it match someone elses experience, e.g. mine?

<sorry Ive seen gadzillions more posts as I wrote this - bacl later!>