What constitutes Misogyny?

[23]

Many parents create images of what their children ought to think/act like. And they convey expectations that their children comply with those images.

When they do, they are rewarded. Punished when they don't.

A child's first exposure to, and experience of, being subject to someone else's image of them.

The dynamic begins in childhood and is extended through adulthood.

The dynamic of creating an image of someone, and expecting them to comply with it.

[wallflower]

Canadian_watcher wrote:

On the contrary I think that you are examining this very thing. I apologize for my clumsiness in leaving that open to be interpreted that way. I'm glad you asked me, because I was speaking philosophically and not directing it at anyone in particular.

I apologize for being so obtuse You weren't clumsy, in fact my first reading was just as you intended. But knowing how obtuse I can be I just wanted to make sure.

That brings me around to a big thank you not only for responding directly to me, but for your careful tending of this thread Canadian_watcher. Big fights in Feminist Blodonia are legendary. There is much good to be said about big fights, but a problem with them is they put lots of people on the periphery. So many core issues have come up in this post because you and others have worked hard--we've worked hard--to sustain the conversation.

Cedars of Overburden raises "Nice Guy Misogyny" it's an idea that hits home, makes me feel a bit guilty. I don't really have a clear idea of how it fits me, but have an idea that it does. It's the cluelessness about it that's so disconcerting. Amanda Marcotte at Pandagon has Nice Guys® as a running theme. The extreme version doesn't really fit, but fits enough to make me think.

A little bit like Nice Guys®, maybe the opposite side of the coin, comes across in Susan Gubar's "Feminist misogyny: Mary Wollstonecraft and the paradox of 'it takes one to know one.'" link to a snippet of the article http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-16475767.html Oversimplifying too much, still Gubar seems to me to be asking whether it is misogynistic for women to struggle against femininity? A case for Nice Guys® not being the other side of the coin of Feminist Misogyny might be that Nice Guys® are fake. They feel unwarrantably entitled, they just pretend they don't feel so. I don't know, the thought of being a Nice Guy® myself is icky. My sense is that there is at least a hint of paradox of struggle against masculinity involved and it's not all pretend.

Canadian_watcher wrote:

Misogyny exists because patriarchy will do anything it can to maintain its dominance.
-On the global scale it exists because to stop it from existing would upset the status quo that works so well for the Powers that Be.
-On a community scale it exists because the messages from the global scale strongly encourage it to via the laws they formulate, the way the media portrays women, job ghettos and assignment of gender roles.
-On a personal level it exists in almost all of us to one degree or another (like radiation from exposure) until we examine ourselves and our culture and decide how to proceed. Upon examination, some people reject misogynistic practices or assignments while others internalize them, deny them, or actively use them to try and gain entrance into the patriarchy in the hopes that they will avoid pain.

That's really great, part of what makes it so is your ability to put it all in a 200 words or less. I'm nowhere near capable of that!

Another reason your short version is good is that there's implicit in it the notion that ideas don't exist independently of lives lives. So there's a history to misogyny and development.

23 wrote:

One way to make that jump is to consider the possibility that personal change is societal change. But then again, and if that is true, no chasm exists between the two. Effecting one effects the others.

I misread "Effecting one effect the others." as "One effecting the others." Maybe that's not all that far off, 23 clearly means that as individuals change we effect change in others. But the question of why some ideas take hold in society and others don't seems hard to account for. We are individuals and as we interact emergent patterns form. These emergent patterns cannot be reduced to the individuals.

Canadian_watcher:

Misogyny exists because patriarchy will do anything it can to maintain its dominance.

It's not that I think it's wrong that sexism is caused by misogyny or that misogyny is caused by patriarchy, what I wonder about is misogyny and patriarchy being used as explanatory principle. I'm wondering how do they do their work? Both constructs seem supervenient pressing downward power over individuals: How did they arise and what is there to do about them? 23 is surely right that change begins with each of us. Yet it seems we also engage in social struggle not only with other individuals but constructs like misogyny and patriarchy which seem obvious and real but still somehow murky.

[hava1]

Hey, if at meant attention Hava, then I'm here and reading. I have to confess that I am eating dust here behind all of you eloquentesses, trying to catch up. The issue is complex as it is, and I am facing word shortage to make useful contrbution.

SImply stated, among ideologically cohesive groups, every act of simple aggression has to be coated in ideological terms. You cant just be aggressive, you have to anchor it, to be heard. That's what I meant with some of the feminist/PC discourse , it can and does cover up a lot of the usual power games every human interaction involves. That can be extremely annoying, as you describe your father , namely, that you cant pin him down but you know it runs you over.

The more the group/unit is sophisticated the more those games are tiresome (to me, being originally a country girl). I happened to re-watch the old Kay Griggs vids this week, and the woman is not the sharpest tool in the box (to day the least, concerning her utterances on history, politics, philosophy and what not),yet I found her to be a fresh breeze after so much complex writing that does not reveal but cover much of "the facts" that would make more difference.

While this is being discussed here, we here in ISrael are experiencing some of that "feminist mud throwing", in the press all over. Today, and as a result of BLogger fights, a professor in the gender department of Tel Aviv u resigned. The issue was a power play among the feminists and gender professionals, and they were unable to resolve their issues. I believe this is a pitfall that came up here as well, and while at it, the ladies are eyeing the men in the back stage, trying to please, as well. ("I am more feminist than her" ). and so forth. SOrry for babbling, bit tired and going to bed early...

Yesterday I had to deal with that feminist cyber terrorism lady, who did give me a scare, and again, the pact of women having a joint interest was I think used to get other messages, from the very male dominated establishment. SO you have that too, the so called feminist with her very old fashion handler giving you the "feminist" schtick, as a bait. So you have all those new capitalistic changes in our society that are not yet incorporated into the "leftie jive" making things even more complex.

anyway, I will take a rest from english, and go to sleep./

[
quote="Cedars of Overburden"]Thank you, Jeff!

At Hava, I was married for nine years and a day (yes, I left him the day after our aniversary) to the kind of left-wing bully asshat PC jerk described in the quote you put up Friday or Saturday.

As for PC being a thing of the past and not really a problem: A year or so ago, a white male "feminist" was urging everyone on a local listserv to drop the word "husbandry" on grounds that it was horribly sexist. In all future usages, he commanded, we were to say "househusband" instead. This guy had just come up with this and felt comfortable issuing usage commands to the group. I'd just been meditating on how a comeback of the word "husbandry" could be a great morale booster for men, especially unemployed men searching for a way to contribute, and in the process could help them understand women's problems in a nonthreatening way. To be fair to Mr. Know-It-All, I didn't respond to his email. I ought to have, but part of my overburden of misogyny is that speaking up is extremely hard for me. If I speak, I'm a bitch, if I hold my tongue, I'm a pushover. But being reasonable (something I value very, very highly and highly recommend to all humans and hell, let's throw in the humanoids too) is always going to involve holding my tongue (or my typing fingers) until I can listen long enough to figure out what I really think is really going on.

Jack is right, however, about "PC" kind of being owned by Fox News and employed as a weapon against us. I'm now debating with myself as to whether I should refer to this phenom as "cases of the snide snarkies" or "social worker syndrome." The latter is unfair to social workers. No. That's out. "Bullying Usage Usurpers"? Grand Word Dictators? All sides can play the game. Renaming French fries "freedom fries" was right wing PC.

This thread has been making me think about my Dad a lot. I've named a syndrome after him -- Nice Guy Misogyny. Daddy really IS a nice guy. Kindly, polite, wouldn't hurt a fly, etc. etc. and the only time he listens to women and actually hears what they're saying is if the weather is sunny, she points that out, AND he happens to agree. I'm been realizing how very much not-listened to I've felt my entire life. Someone enraged me a few months ago by saying how much I reminded them of my Dad. I was shaking with rage about that. I later asked my Mom what she thought and she said, "you're pretty much exactly like your father except you listen to me."[/quote]

[brainpanhandler]

I later asked my Mom what she thought and she said, "you're pretty much exactly like your father except you listen to me."

Did you/do you agree with that?

"nice guy misogyny" syndrome....

Listening is a skill that requires practice and effort and selflessness and patience. Since I try to live by the golden rule and one of my greatest pet peeves is the failure of the world to listen to me, I try very hard to listen carefully. But in listening carefully I cannot help but notice that so much more is often communicated by the tone with which something is said, not to mention nonverbal cues. But almost universally I cannot point out the ways in which the literal meaning of someone's words disconnect from the way that they said them and/or carry much more meaning than their denotations without creating a ruckus. It's a curse to be too observant, to listen too carefully. It drives me to pull the shades and lock the doors. I so rarely meet anyone in this world that really listens well, even otherwise intelligent, well meaning people. If I've wanted that I've had to to pay a professional listener/therapist. I learned a long time ago that it was easy to make friends with women. Simply listen carefully. That doesn't necessarily translate into empathy, but recognizing the other for who they are wouldn't require any effort at all if we were all the same. Nonetheless when I say "that other is me" I can only do so by relating the other's experience and communication of that with my own experience. How to do that without projecting? It requires a sort of egoless equipoise that is not easy to acquire or even recognize when you have. Knowing glances.... now that's where I want to get to. I sure as hell don't ever want anyone literally reading my thoughts though. I'd have no friends whatsoever and I'd never get laid again.

[brainpanhandler]

A potential antidote (androgyny) to the complementary aberrations of androcentrism and gynocentrism.

Did you mean to include a question mark after that?

Because if you did then my answer is that it would be a step in the right direction. I'm not particularly androgynous in appearance, but I am and always have been in spirit. The very same stereotypically hetero males that plague the world and especially the women in it were and have been the bane of my existence as well. I very definitely possess feminine qualities which I would prefer were just human qualities, but they're not and I've paid a price for that. Not too high a price though for what I get in exchange, not that I could have done anything about it that wouldn't have been a betrayal of who I am and as it turns out prefer to be, happily.

[Canadian_watcher]

Did you mean to include a question mark after that?

Because if you did then my answer is that it would be a step in the right direction. I'm not particularly androgynous in appearance, but I am and always have been in spirit. The very same stereotypically hetero males that plague the world and especially the women in it were and have been the bane of my existence as well. I very definitely possess feminine qualities which I would prefer were just human qualities, but they're not and I've paid a price for that. Not too high a price though for what I get in exchange, not that I could have done anything about it that wouldn't have been a betrayal of who I am and as it turns out prefer to be, happily.

I love that you gave us this to think about. I'd never really thought of misogyny from that angle before... it being a clash of stereotypes, so to speak.

When I speak of my feminism I do not wish for women to be allowed entrance into the sick power-structure that already exists. (well, of course I want even ground.. ) but instead I want more along the lines of what you are describing, above. I want the roles to stop being assigned in this black is opposite of white fashion.

I want people to be people - whether I can open the jar or you can open the jar just shouldn't be a woman-weak/man-strong thing. Because that is the way we kind of look at things in this system all of a sudden a woman who can open a jar and a man who can't becomes something so much bigger than it should be. see what I'm sayin? Exchange the jar for any other situation and you can see that there are built in gender prejudices to almost every single activity It's foolish.

[brainpanhandler]

see what I'm sayin?

I do. We're much more alike than different, men and women, even with all the cultural conditioning to the contrary. Almost all of my friends all my life have been women or homo/bisexual men. Almost all my girlfriends have been athletic tomboys unwilling to conform to society's expectations of who they ought to be and struggling with that. This wasn't by design. It's just the way it was and is. And yet, I still can't say that I fully appreciate what it is like to be a woman in American society. A very good friend and occasional lover of mine, a woman, a very smart woman and an excellent athlete btw, finally left academia recently, after having spent the better part of her life acquiring the credentials for that position, out of sheer disgust with the male dominated administration. She has slowly revealed to me over the course of many years her life's story. (We did not meet until our mid 30s). It is painful to see her struggle with her identity as a woman. When she was completing her phd she had to attend a number of functions that required she appear a certain way and it was awful to see the anxiety this provoked in her. I will never forget the day she surprised me wearing a dress. I was sitting in the living room, sipping a beer and watching cable, when she walked in front of the tv and asked me "How do I look?" I was used to seeing her wear basically the same clothes I wear. In fact our wardrobes are essentially interchangeable. I was taken aback and the startled 3 second long silence was too long and only confirmed her suspicion that she looked completely uncomfortable and unnatural, which she did. I wanted to lie to her and tell her she looked great and I eventually did just that because what else could I do. Here is this incredibly strong, intelligent, competent woman reduced nearly to tears over not being able to look right in a dress. God. I just wanted to hug her and tell her it was alright, but I knew that's not what she wanted and that would be more for me than her.

[JackRiddler]

.

Well I don't think misogyny can be separated from the torment of boys by way of the macho behavioral system. Boys are subjected to constant bullying and gay-bashing. They are made to fear attributions that they are gay, weak or "pussies," at the price often of being assaulted physically if so perceived. And smart is one of the attributes that makes you gay. Hell, at least a couple of physical assaults in childhood and youth are basically inevitable. Buck up and learn to fight, right? The worst thing by implication is to be a woman, even though we're all at least half so (physically and psychologically more like 90 percent-plus identity). Boys are trained in empty macho postures and encouraged to exterminate feeling. Actually, a lot of specifically male behavior is verboten. If most boys are naturally anything, they're loud, sprawling, socially unconscious, playful, anxious. We're nerds more than jocks. Humans use our minds to define our own circumstances. There should be no shame engendered for the big majority of males who don't fit the physical profile of a primate alpha, but there is, and it's one of the wellsprings of misogyny and (self-)hatred generally.

.

[Cedars of Overburden]

I later asked my Mom what she thought and she said, "you're pretty much exactly like your father except you listen to me."

Did you/do you agree with that?

"nice guy misogyny" syndrome....

Listening is a skill that requires practice and effort and selflessness and patience. Since I try to live by the golden rule and one of my greatest pet peeves is the failure of the world to listen to me, I try very hard to listen carefully. But in listening carefully I cannot help but notice that so much more is often communicated by the tone with which something is said, not to mention nonverbal cues. But almost universally I cannot point out the ways in which the literal meaning of someone's words disconnect from the way that they said them and/or carry much more meaning than their denotations without creating a ruckus. It's a curse to be too observant, to listen too carefully. It drives me to pull the shades and lock the doors. I so rarely meet anyone in this world that really listens well, even otherwise intelligent, well meaning people. If I've wanted that I've had to to pay a professional listener/therapist. I learned a long time ago that it was easy to make friends with women. Simply listen carefully. That doesn't necessarily translate into empathy, but recognizing the other for who they are wouldn't require any effort at all if we were all the same. Nonetheless when I say "that other is me" I can only do so by relating the other's experience and communication of that with my own experience. How to do that without projecting? It requires a sort of egoless equipoise that is not easy to acquire or even recognize when you have. Knowing glances.... now that's where I want to get to. I sure as hell don't ever want anyone literally reading my thoughts though. I'd have no friends whatsoever and I'd never get laid again.

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree with Mom. I've got a lot of his good qualities and almost a full set of his failings, which I won't get into, okay?

But his listening thing. I can see where someone might think that I'm talking about some deep listening thing, but I'm not. DH has noticed it and has decided that, to cut down on confusion, bad feelings, and etc., he will simply repeat anything a woman has said in Dad's presence so that Dad will actually process the factual information. Example: Woman, ANY woman, says "I see where they're going to demolish the old AME Chapel to put in a road." Daddy will always reply with silence or contradiction, "they wouldn't ever do that."

But if any man, such as DH, says: "I see where the county is going to demolish the old AME Chapel to put in a road." Daddy will say, "but it's on the National Register of Historical Places! They can't do that!"

My husband is just not into all kinds of deep listening himself, but without my ever complaining about it, DH figured out what Daddy does. That is, Daddy's problem with listening to women and processing the information AT ALL is blindingly obvious to anyone who's paying garden variety attention. As I've gotten older, I've realized that Daddy's not the only one, just a glaringly obvious one.

If a woman tells him something in front of his nose, as in "Daddy, your left front tire is flat," -- well, it's really good that DH is around now to translate that for him. Sometimes, if it is right in front of him, he can process plain information coming from a woman, but damn it, sometimes he just can't or won't or whatever the hell it is, and then he proceeds to do something blindingly just plain flat stupid -- like drive away with one flat tire because he can't be bothered to verify that, no Dad, the woman did not lie to you, it really is flat!

Maybe when I'm 90, if I live that long, I will write a comedy script about it all.....

[23]

A potential antidote (androgyny) to the complementary aberrations of androcentrism and gynocentrism.

Did you mean to include a question mark after that?

I didn't originally, but you can add one if you'd like. I happen to think that it is.

Androcentrism and gynocentrism are states of mind, from which misogynous and misandrous thoughts and acts issue forth from. Or lenses that skew how men and women see the world, in favor of one perspective over the other.

I referenced androgyny to both androcentrism and gynocentrism intentionally, 'cause I see androgyny as a state of mind more than a physiological condition.

When I was a young boy, I attended an Orthodox Christian Church. Men stood on one side during the service, and women on the other. I suspect that my frequent visitations to the other side doomed me to acquire an androgynous perspective on many issues later on in life. Mischief had its benefits, no doubt.

P.S. Jack's above comment, re. bullying among boys, is spot on. Good observation. But bullying also occurs among girls (having a daughter has revealed that to me). I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on what prompts girls to bully other girls. And if they're related to why boys bully other boys.

[Canadian_watcher]

-- is it obvious I'm avoiding doing my work today?

. Well I don't think misogyny can be separated from the torment of boys by way of the macho behavioral system. Boys are subjected to constant bullying and gay-bashing. They are made to fear attributions that they are gay, weak or "pussies," at the price often of being assaulted physically if so perceived. And smart is one of the attributes that makes you gay. Hell, at least a couple of physical assaults in childhood and youth are basically inevitable. Buck up and learn to fight, right? The worst thing by implication is to be a woman, even though we're all at least half so (physically and psychologically more like 90 percent-plus identity). Boys are trained in empty macho postures and encouraged to exterminate feeling. Actually, a lot of specifically male behavior is verboten.

yes, I absolutely agree -- it's really the very same thing as misogyny. It doesn't even need a separate name, imo. the hatred of the female, more than women. This could be a debate-changer and I think from now on I'll frame it this way. misogyny is the hatred of 'the feminine.'

If most boys are naturally anything, they're loud, sprawling, socially unconscious, playful, anxious. We're nerds more than jocks.

you're falling right back in to the trap here, I think. The same could be said of women and it would also be a vast over-generalization.

There should be no shame engendered for the big majority of males who don't fit the physical profile of a primate alpha, but there is, and it's one of the wellsprings of misogyny and (self-)hatred generally.

I'm glad you said "one of" because I don't think it fits all throughout history as well as it fits today.

[Canadian_watcher]

see what I'm sayin?

I do. We're much more alike than different, men and women, even with all the cultural conditioning to the contrary. Almost all of my friends all my life have been women or homo/bisexual men. Almost all my girlfriends have been athletic tomboys unwilling to conform to society's expectations of who they ought to be and struggling with that. This wasn't by design. It's just the way it was and is. And yet, I still can't say that I fully appreciate what it is like to be a woman in American society. A very good friend and occasional lover of mine, a woman, a very smart woman and an excellent athlete btw, finally left academia recently, after having spent the better part of her life acquiring the credentials for that position, out of sheer disgust with the male dominated administration. She has slowly revealed to me over the course of many years her life's story. (We did not meet until our mid 30s). It is painful to see her struggle with her identity as a woman. When she was completing her phd she had to attend a number of functions that required she appear a certain way and it was awful to see the anxiety this provoked in her. I will never forget the day she surprised me wearing a dress. I was sitting in the living room, sipping a beer and watching cable, when she walked in front of the tv and asked me "How do I look?" I was used to seeing her wear basically the same clothes I wear. In fact our wardrobes are essentially interchangeable. I was taken aback and the startled 3 second long silence was too long and only confirmed her suspicion that she looked completely uncomfortable and unnatural, which she did. I wanted to lie to her and tell her she looked great and I eventually did just that because what else could I do. Here is this incredibly strong, intelligent, competent woman reduced nearly to tears over not being able to look right in a dress. God. I just wanted to hug her and tell her it was alright, but I knew that's not what she wanted and that would be more for me than her.

man do I ever get that. I really feel for your friend. You described that very well, I felt like I was there.

[wintler2]

I was reflecting on the behaviour of two unconciously feminine/androgenous men of my aquaintaince: these guys are recognised by all of their friends as being fairly feminine (as am I), but as far as i'm aware they have never owned it or talked about it. They both also have an arguably misogynist scorecard mindset to sex, in male company they'll brag "i've fucked A and B and C". My pop-psych says they're trying to prove they're 'real' men, by hating the feminine. It doesn't seem to be a problem for me IMHO, perhaps because i 'went there' in my twenties, tried androgyny and homosexuality and worked out just where i sit (a less-macho het.).

[marycarnival]

yes, I absolutely agree -- it's really the very same thing as misogyny. It doesn't even need a separate name, imo. the hatred of the female, more than women. This could be a debate-changer and I think from now on I'll frame it this way. misogyny is the hatred of 'the feminine.'

I like that. Spot on, CW.

Jack's post is touching (in a much better way) on what I was asking up-thread about the use of the word 'pussy' amongst boys and men...thank you, Jack.

[Laodicean]

I posted this in the videos only thread, but I think it deserves to be included here. It's awesome.