What constitutes Misogyny?

[wintler2]

I always wanted a husband. ..

Too many internal contradictions, sexist generalisations and whiney revelations to engage with. But somebody did try and make similar offtopic points much earlier in this thread - maybe he can be the hubbie and you can be the manly one?

[Nordic]

Why is the one I wrote any more silly than the first one, about how the woman wants a wife?

Why do we all have to complain about each other?

We all enter into these relationships willingly, why not accept the differences we have in our genders?

Do we really want everyone to be exactly alike? I sure as hell don't.

[Project Willow]

I think this thread could use a little counter-balance, a small triumph discharged onto the face of defeat.

Female orgasm 'overwhelms'
From: The Australian
November 08, 2010 8:04AM

THE brain's reward circuits are overwhelmed with electrical activity when a woman reaches orgasm.

In the first film of what goes on inside a woman's brain as she approaches and then experiences orgasm, researchers recorded how sexual arousal generates a cascade of events that, at its peak, involves 30 parts of the brain.

A woman not only experiences longer and deeper orgasms than a man, but they so overwhelm her nervous system that they leave her temporarily impervious to pain, the film shows.

"In women, orgasm produces a very extensive response across the brain and body," said Barry Komisaruk, professor of psychology at Rutgers University in New Jersey, who oversaw the research.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/female-orgasm-overwhelms/story-e6frg3pl-1225949330869

I couldn't find other coverage with quite the same take on this man's very interesting research, but hey, it made me feel good!

Cheers ladies!

Back to topic.

[Canadian_watcher]

I'm not sorry to see that the thread has engaged conversation about the domestic sphere but I wish that the defensiveness would stop. I'll admit that it is difficult, since when Nordic said the thing about "someone to support my while I pursue my art" that is exactly my situation and it made me feel directly insulted.

I have put aside my defensiveness though, since I know that Nordic doesn't know what preceded this situation in my life - the sacrifices I made, and the bargain I've struck for this opportunity to 'be supported while I pursue a career in art.

Nordic's points are well taken: the gender roles assigned to men are just as hurtful as those assigned to women. In both cases they stifle true personhood and the pursuit of the true self. This is one reason that the feminist movement has aided both genders - it has given people the opportunity to re-examine those socially assigned roles and challenge them.

the stuff about wife/husband is largely an interpersonal problem and at this point in history amounts to personal choice in many cases at least in the Western World. If I'd married a jerk who expected me to be like the wife in the paragraphs posted by IamwhoIam, I'd leave him. If my wife expected money and nothing more from me I'd leave her.

The one thing we must keep in mind, however, is that the person earning the money has considerably more freedom to make the choice to leave. Thus, in any relationship where one person works while the other does not, there is a power-imbalance and the person with the job is the one with the upper hand.

Finally, in many cases this question is moot since it is a luxury in the extreme to be in a situation where only one person has to hold a paid job.

[Project Willow]

http://feministteacher.com/2011/03/29/teaching-boys-feminism/

Teaching Boys Feminism
March 29, 2011
Most snipped...

My dream as a result? That whole generations of young women and men will never experience and/or perpetuate everything from street harassment to rape; frat boy misogyny to workplace discrimination; bullying of queer kids to the banning of LGBT soldiers in the military. All of these issues connect along lines of gender and sexuality, power and politics. If we teach gender justice to all young people, we might just make lasting institutional change.

My student Ian said it best, “Any man who finds himself ashamed of many of the things that women go through could be considered a feminist; I hope to gain from this class a better understanding of myself as a man.”

[JackRiddler]

Why is the one I wrote any more silly than the first one, about how the woman wants a wife?

If you read them again, you might see that one is a more accurate description of realities than another. Your version makes a valid point about part of reality to start, then goes into overkill, invoking a population of largely mythic creatures, like the husband who married rich but suffers the world's view that he is not enough of a man, or the "women" who somehow all have the option of rich husbands who will let them "find themselves."

Why do we all have to complain about each other?

Non-starter. What's the evidence that "all" here are "complaining" about "each other"? You'll have to define each of those terms for it to mean anything, and, in a second step, explain your implication that each of the specific "complaints" are baseless. Otherwise the sentence is meaningless, except as the rhetorical question of someone satisfied with the status quo as he understands it, who sees the status quo as natural, and who would like criticisms of it to just go away and stop annoying him.

We all enter into these relationships willingly, why not accept the differences we have in our genders?

The idea that "we all" simply enter into "these relationships" (which ones? how did the specific arrangements come to be? how much freedom is there to define them?) and do so willingly (as though solely by contract? and therefore should always like it? and therefore should never allow ourselves or our views to change?) is contradicted by pretty much the entire body of sociology (social structures, power, conditioning) and psychology (involuntary drives, childhood conditioning). From another direction, also biology.

As for "the differences," it's dismaying that by now you're still not willing to acknowledge that the range of these is far greater within the set of one sex or another than between the averages of these sexes. "Gender" is a construct superimposed upon the great variety of humans, in its most extreme form forcing definitions of entire persons (mind/spirit/body) as mere functions of the difference in part of their biology (the sex and reproductive systems, which also are still going to differ and have different impacts on the rest of the person, from person to person).

Do we really want everyone to be exactly alike? I sure as hell don't.

Nonsense question. Not remotely related to what anyone said. Not dealing with the subjects at hand. Once again, makes sense only as a rhetorical question of someone who is happy with the status quo. Or the status quo ante feminismum.

.

[brekin]

.
This article reminded me how institutions all try to protect themselves
and can end up protecting abusers and perpetuating abuse by silencing
the abused and reassigning the abuser. We tend to think it just happens in the Church
but it seems like a similar thing happens with universities.

This could of been also posted in the Breaking the 5th Wall thread with the professor's
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde m.o.


WARNING: VERY TRIGGERING

For a Victim of Rape, Silence Is No Benefit

http://chronicle.com/article/For-a-Vict ... ce/126899/

By Donna L. Potts

In the fall of 1981, I left home to attend college. I was delighted when, after class one day, one of my professors asked me about my favorite writers, then suggested I might like to work on a special project. After that, I went to his office once a week to help him.

Near the semester's end, my father committed suicide. My professors were notified, and when I returned to campus, my mentor called to offer condolences and invite me to dinner with his family. When he asked me to come back the next morning for coffee, I immediately said yes. When I arrived, he invited me in, and as he closed the door behind me, he mentioned that his family had left town for a shopping trip. He then raped me, and on my way out, said: "By the way, I have a lot of power in the department, so it won't do any good for you to say anything about this. Anyway, it's never happened before."

Back in my apartment that day, I curled up in a fetal position on a black vinyl couch for hours, until my boyfriend (who didn't know I'd been raped) suggested taking me to a university psychiatrist. When I tried to explain to the man on call that weekend what had happened, he said dismissively, "But I'm sure a lot of men are attracted to you," then offered to prescribe antidepressants. I had a fleeting fear that he was planning to drug me before he raped me, and I left his office as fast as I could.

When I tried to tell my mom, she was too absorbed in her own grief to listen. And I was afraid to admit to my friends what had happened. Having been raised fundamentalist, I'd been taught that women, by dressing or behaving provocatively, were largely responsible for their rapes. So in addition to my guilt over my father's death, I also felt responsible for making my otherwise irreproachable professor cross boundaries he'd never crossed before. After all, the other students gushed about how patient and kind he was, and what a wonderful dad he'd make.

After the rape, I moved in with my boyfriend, who gradually became abusive. When I finally found the courage to leave, I ended up at a women's shelter in St. Louis, where I was asked to fill out a questionnaire and was given information about various kinds of violence toward women. My small repayment to the shelter for helping me break away was to become a rape, abuse, and incest hotline volunteer. I soon learned that rape is not about sex—it's about control—and as I took phone calls from women at all hours, what had initially seemed like my own private hell quickly became crowded with fellow victims.

Over the next several years, I finished my degree, then got a Ph.D. and eventually a professorship. In those days, rape awareness was just beginning to emerge on college campuses. It took me 10 years to use the word "rape" to describe what had happened to me, but as more women entered the profession—some of whom had also had encounters with male academics who felt entitled to exploit their students—I gradually found the courage to go public. And I felt more comfortable addressing the issue of rape in academe.

In 2002, I taught J.M. Coetzee's novel Disgrace, a story of rape and denial in which a professor harasses, stalks, and rapes one of his students, but refuses to admit it to himself afterward.

In the classroom discussion that ensued, some of my students argued that because his victim in the novel doesn't say "no," and because she doesn't physically resist him, what happens between them doesn't really count as rape. As soon as I suggested that she might have been afraid to say "no," a small voice seconded me: "But just because she didn't say 'no' doesn't mean she wanted it to happen." The speaker, a student who had never before spoken in class, or even made eye contact with me, suddenly volunteered that when she was in high school, a teacher had locked her in a room and assaulted her.

For that young woman, one of the worst parts of her continuing ordeal was that she never got the chance to say anything on her own behalf at the trial. Likewise, she told the class, the worst thing about the story we were discussing was that the professor "gets to do all that talking in his own defense, but the girl he raped never gets to say anything again."

For that student, the opportunity to say something in a public space, and be affirmed for doing so, seemed therapeutic. She grew from a sullen student into a joyful learner, and even brought us cupcakes on her birthday—maybe as a way of saying thank you for listening to her the way nobody else had.

It's been nearly 30 years now since I was raped, and in that time, I've heard countless stories of sexual assaults on university campuses. Whether rapes are committed by professors or students, the pattern is the same: The chosen victim is particularly vulnerable, isolated in one way or another from her peers, and the perpetrator is a repeat offender.

At a recent meeting of the American Association of University Professors, I heard a story from a colleague about a professor who had raped an international student on his campus. The student eventually notified university authorities, who followed university procedure and terminated the professor. Although I had already guessed the outcome, I asked anyway: "Was the professor ever charged with rape?" As I expected, the answer was no. Internal procedures were followed, records were sealed to protect the student's privacy, and the professor was gone—problem solved.

However, the drawback to such internal procedures, which are standard not only at many private universities but at state universities as well, is that the rapists are then free to seek employment elsewhere. All it takes is silent complicity and a few glowing letters of recommendation. And the message to students is still, "It won't do any good for you to say anything."

Because universities have a vested interest in protecting their reputations, victims of sexual assault are all too often silenced. Although there are now rape-awareness posters on most campuses, they're more likely to emphasize the responsibility of the victim to prevent rape rather than the roles of bystanders, roommates, friends, faculty, and staff in responding to rape. Even when victims report rape to campus police or university authorities, criminal charges, or even internal sanctions, are seldom forthcoming.

As faculty members, we can help change the outcomes. We can ensure that students receive up-to-date information about rape rather than simply a list of phone numbers to call after a rape has been committed. Given the many public misconceptions about rape, faculty and staff would benefit from such information, too—whether through administrative memos or in training sessions. We can incorporate into our handbooks clear procedures that recommend reporting sexual assaults to local police, to make sure that students—and faculty and staff members—get the message. And above all, when our students report sexual assault, we can listen and encourage them to act.

Donna L. Potts is an associate professor in the English department at Kansas State University and chair of the Assembly of State Conferences for the American Association of University Professors.

[Canadian_watcher]

thank you for that, brekin. this part:

Although there are now rape-awareness posters on most campuses, they're more likely to emphasize the responsibility of the victim to prevent rape rather than the roles of bystanders, roommates, friends, faculty, and staff in responding to rape. Even when victims report rape to campus police or university authorities, criminal charges, or even internal sanctions, are seldom forthcoming.

I have experience with this on a personal level. I don't think I need to add my details, but I'd like to add my voice to the author's in support of the facts she presents.

One thing that has always bothered me is this: when an 'outbreak' of sexual assaults occurs on a campus (or in a town) it is always the potential victims who are given curfews.

[Nordic]

Nordic said the thing about "someone to support my while I pursue my art" that is exactly my situation and it made me feel directly insulted.

Well don't feel insulted, feel lucky!

I think all artists should be supported, preferably by people who love them.

I'm just bitter that I've never found that in my life, honestly. I wouldn't mind, even if my fellow males looked down on me.

I was using rhetoric to make a point, and once again ended up hurting someone's feelings, which is why I promised myself to stay out of this thread. But? Broke that promise. I'm such a man! (that was a joke directed at men)

My wife is an amazing writer and I wish to god I was making enough money right now that she could just stay at home and write, but that's just not the case any more. I feel terrible about it, because I feel that as a man I should be supporting her 100%. Maybe I'm just old fashioned?

My ire in the previous post was mainly about all the wealthy housewives I know who are unhappy with their husbands, when the main reason they're unhappy is because their husbands work so much to support their extremely extravagant and indulgent lifestyles. Many of them drink, some of them cheat.

And some are really really nice!

I will try to stay out of this thread now, but I get bored, and sometimes this thread is the only one in red, meaning it's got some new stuff in it .........

[Canadian_watcher]

Nordic - like I said earlier I did at first feel a bit hurt.. not hurt by what you said, because I was pretty much sure you didn't' even know that about me... but seeing it there like that touched a nerve. I got over it. No hard feelings. These things cannot be discussed without getting into personal territory so don't worry about it.

And thanks for being honest about your motivations and inner thoughts on the whole matter. More than old-fashioned I think you are conditioned by your society just like the rest of us. You can let go of those gender stereotypes that keep you down. You have cosmic permission to do so. cosmic permission!!!

[brainpanhandler]

I found the Mirren interview while watching an Iris Murdoch interview about the distinction between philosophical and literary writing and the nature of art. Murdoch is one of my favorite novelists. Since gender issues are in the forefront of my awareness these days I clicked on the Helen Mirren interview. What a delightful woman.





I wonder if she realized the strap on her dress had fallen off her shoulder as she was discussing the difficulty shooting a nude scene.

Orange Rubber Gloves! LOL
wizard20 2 days ago

It looks like a victoria's secret commercial from the 60's
wizard20 2 days ago

shes very hotttttt
alhawal1 3 days ago

favourites...
peacemonger1967 4 days ago

WOW!!
attffgg 1 week ago

meow!
talk about sex kittens,she's gotta be in the top of the cream dreams
Rosiexxmyrearendxx 1 week ago

fucking hottttttt
Allenbarclay17 1 week ago

o_o
ThisIsAeroPlane 2 weeks ago

Yeah she's 65 now, but I would still bang her.
PhillyLucky7 2 weeks ago

Her husband Taylor Hackford directed her in the the box office and critical bomb, Love Ranch -



How did Taylor Hackford score Helen Mirren I wanna know?

[Project Willow]

Helen Mirren can't be a feminist icon, she never wears pants.

[brainpanhandler]

Helen Mirren can't be a feminist icon, she never wears pants.

Not even on a show produced by Worldwide Pants Incorporated.

[Iamwhomiam]

Project Willow wrote:

"I think this thread could use a little counter-balance, a small triumph discharged onto the face of defeat."



Canadian_watcher, what I take from your writing is that you are a very kind soul. Perhaps too kind.

What seems to me to be your honest attempts to please everyone is similar to what I feel is one of the reasons that misogynous behaviors flourish. (And no, I’m not blaming women for causing misogynistic behaviors by men.)

You're soothing the 'hurt' egos of certain men who have demonstrated repeatedly that they haven't a clue. You feel badly for their plight and attempt to make everything copacetic while remaining in denial of their incorrigibility, just as an abused victim would their abuser. “They’ll change, just you wait and see.”

Instead, you should try verbally cutting off their heads much in the loving way C2w does so well. She's very good at emasculating the clueless. They fall into a swoon from her words of kindness and never see through her razor sharp wit to the teeth of her biting remarks.

All women always should adopt a zero tolerance policy towards misogynistic behavior in men. It should never be tolerated, even when demonstrated in the least of its forms. It needs to be nipped at the bud whenever it rears its ugly head.

Misogynistic behavior is not at all unlike sexual abuse, which it may often lead to. How much sexual abuse is to be tolerated, just a little or none at all?

You also said this:

"If I'd married a jerk who expected me to be like the wife in the paragraphs posted by IamwhoIam, I'd leave him. If my wife expected money and nothing more from me I'd leave her."

Please don’t relegate an essay written by a once prominent renowned feminist author to obscurity by referring to it as “the paragraphs.” Please give credit where credit is due: “…feminist Judy Syfers essay…” would have been much more appropriate, imo.

Please let’s not forget that Ms. Syfer’s essay was written 40 years ago as satire; humorous, but cutting satire.

Here’s a good analysis of her essay, Why I Want A Wife: http://www.personal.psu.edu/t2l/an_whole.htm

JackRiddler, very well said.

[Canadian_watcher]

Project Willow wrote:

"I think this thread could use a little counter-balance, a small triumph discharged onto the face of defeat."



Canadian_watcher, what I take from your writing is that you are a very kind soul. Perhaps too kind.

What seems to me to be your honest attempts to please everyone is similar to what I feel is one of the reasons that misogynous behaviors flourish. (And no, I’m not blaming women for causing misogynistic behaviors by men.)

You're soothing the 'hurt' egos of certain men who have demonstrated repeatedly that they haven't a clue. You feel badly for their plight and attempt to make everything copacetic while remaining in denial of their incorrigibility, just as an abused victim would their abuser. “They’ll change, just you wait and see.”

Instead, you should try verbally cutting off their heads much in the loving way C2w does so well. She's very good at emasculating the clueless. They fall into a swoon from her words of kindness and never see through her razor sharp wit to the teeth of her biting remarks.

All women always should adopt a zero tolerance policy towards misogynistic behavior in men. It should never be tolerated, even when demonstrated in the least of its forms. It needs to be nipped at the bud whenever it rears its ugly head.

Misogynistic behavior is not at all unlike sexual abuse, which it may often lead to. How much sexual abuse is to be tolerated, just a little or none at all?

You also said this:

"If I'd married a jerk who expected me to be like the wife in the paragraphs posted by IamwhoIam, I'd leave him. If my wife expected money and nothing more from me I'd leave her."

Please don’t relegate an essay written by a once prominent renowned feminist author to obscurity by referring to it as “the paragraphs.” Please give credit where credit is due: “…feminist Judy Syfers essay…” would have been much more appropriate, imo.

Please let’s not forget that Ms. Syfer’s essay was written 40 years ago as satire; humorous, but cutting satire.

Here’s a good analysis of her essay, Why I Want A Wife: http://www.personal.psu.edu/t2l/an_whole.htm

JackRiddler, very well said.

don't hate the player.. hate the game.

we all have different ways of trying to get our messages across. I appreciate - fully & with a satisfied smile - that there are posters on here who approach the matter in that biting way you describe. I can do it too, and I do, when I feel it.

I dedicated nearly 10 years of my life to getting a university degree through night school & correspondence studies - I was a single working mother who for years got not child support and who faced an ugly legal battle instigated by my daughter's father. All the while I was looking after the house, yard & car that I bought with my own money... that's a lot on a person's plate. My degree was in Women's History and I even won an academic prize for my achievement in it. Believe me when I tell you that I meant no disrespect to Judy Syfer by saying "the paragraphs." Also, I appreciate her words and understand where they are coming from.

In my opinion we can't all offer up angry responses all the time. It doesn't help the cause.

I respect you for taking the time to point this out though... not for me, because I already knew how I was coming off. But it needs to be pointed out: this strange gentle coddling of male egos that needs to be done in order to further the conversation. It's wrong and frustrating ... but that's just where the battle is at at the moment.