What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brekin » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:53 am

Ashley Judd apologizes for hip-hop remarks

http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/12 ... /?iref=NS1

After being criticized for attacking rap and hip-hop in her memoir, “All That Is Bitter and Sweet,” Ashley Judd is extending an olive branch along with a few points of clarification.

The backlash began after an excerpt from her book depicted the actress lobbing harsh words at the rap and hip-hop genres as well as artists Snoop Dogg and P. Diddy. While speaking about an AIDS awareness program she works with, Judd writes, "Along with other performers, YouthAIDS was supported by rap and hip-hop artists like Snoop Dogg and P. Diddy to spread the message...um, who? Those names were a red flag.”

Judd continued, “As far as I'm concerned, most rap and hip-hop music - with its rape culture and insanely abusive lyrics and depictions of girls and women as 'ho's' - is the contemporary soundtrack of misogyny.”


She concludes, "I believe that the social construction of gender - the cultural beliefs and practices that divide the sexes and institutionalize and normalize the unequal treatment of girls and women, privilege the interests of boys and men, and, most nefariously, incessantly sexualize girls and women - is the root cause of poverty and suffering around the world."

Now the 42-year-old says that in light of the many responses around the Web, she believes she should’ve framed her opinion a bit differently.

"The outcry regarding my remarks, 2 paragraphs of my 400+ page book, regarding hip hop and rap, has been as astounding as it is out of context...I have looked closely at the feedback I have received about those two paragraphs, and absolutely see your points, and I fully capitulate to your rightness, and again humbly offer my heartfelt amends for not having been able to see the fault in my writing, and not having anticipated it would be painful for so many. Crucial words are missing that could have made a giant difference,” she says in a post on GlobalGrind.com.

Judd asserts that those paragraphs should read: “Some hip hop, and some rap, is abusive. Some of it is part of the contemporary soundtrack [of] misogyny (which, of course, is multi-sonic). Some of it promotes the rape culture so pervasive in our world...I should have been clear...that I include hip-hop and rap as part of a much larger problem. It is beyond unfortunate that I am talking about some, for example, of Snoop Dogs’ lyrics, an assumption has been spread I was talking about every single artist in both genres."


She explains that if someone were to make generalizations about the music genres she grew up with, she too would feel slighted.

"My equivalent genres, as an Appalachian, an oppressed and ridiculed people, would be mountain music and bluegrass. Those genres tell the history, struggles, grief, soul, faith, and culture of my people. In imagining how I would feel if someone made negative generalizations about that music, I am deeply remorseful that anything I may have said in 'All That Is Bitter & Sweet' would hurt adherents of genres that represent their culture," Judd says.

The actress also clarifies that she was by no means trying to blame rap and hip-hop for "poverty, AIDS, and the whole of rape culture."

"Please, people. Seriously," she writes. "I am white, yes, but in spite of some allegations to the contrary, I am not an idiot. Gender inequality and rape culture were here a long before the birth of the genres and rage everywhere. "

But there's one thing Judd won't apologize for, and that's speaking out against hate and violence towards women and girls.

"Hatred of girls and women, I will oppose with spiritual and non-violent principles every day," she concludes, adding that the Twitter responses to her remarks included death threats. "Abuse and violence in any form, at any time, in any expression, are never okay. Period. I, and other girls and women, are not afraid of you. You can keep on hating, but I am going to keep on loving."
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:17 am

I wish she would have stood by what she said the first time. She didn't say ALL, she said most. And unless someone wants to present an academic study of every piece of rap/hip-hop music that proves otherwise, she should have told people who were criticizing her to get lost.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:18 am

norton ash wrote:C-W, i'm just disappointed AGAIN in your attitude to your thread and its participants. I don't see any gain in reducing Morgan's explanation of why that video is creepy rubbish or where it came from to rhetorical bullet points, and especially not your 'high five' of same.

Is this is a discussion thread or a volleyball game? Other posters see fit to fully engage with Morgan, whereas I think you'd prefer to just keep playing boys-against-girls.
Trolling? Want a little of momma C-W's attention, do you?


You embarrass me, but not for the reasons you might think.


oh boy, this means you think I care.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brekin » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:31 am

Canadian Watcher wrote:
I wish she would have stood by what she said the first time. She didn't say ALL, she said most. And unless someone wants to present an academic study of every piece of rap/hip-hop music that proves otherwise, she should have told people who were criticizing her to get lost.


I agree, she should have gone the distance. Of course as an entertainer incredible pressure is probably applied
on her to remain pleasant and harmless.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:36 am

A Millionaire Entertainer wrote:I have looked closely at the feedback I have received about those two paragraphs, and absolutely see your points, and I fully capitulate to your rightness, and again humbly offer my heartfelt amends for not having been able to see the fault in my writing, and not having anticipated it would be painful for so many.


That's not what a genuine apology sounds like. That's what abject terror sounds like.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:37 am

brekin wrote:Canadian Watcher wrote:
I wish she would have stood by what she said the first time. She didn't say ALL, she said most. And unless someone wants to present an academic study of every piece of rap/hip-hop music that proves otherwise, she should have told people who were criticizing her to get lost.


I agree, she should have gone the distance. Of course as an entertainer incredible pressure is probably applied
on her to remain pleasant and harmless.


yes, I totally agree. Plus she's southern, and I wonder if the Dixie Chicks came to mind for her at the time...
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:45 am

I've got a problem with that manifesto, beyond the belief in collective responsibility which I objected to in the video, which is that it's not a manifesto. A manifesto must have things which it wishes to make manifest. Everything in there boils down to "I'm gonna be a nice guy!". This, now that's a manifesto.

And collective responsibility IS a slippery slope. It's a quick road from a belief that men are morally responsible for things they as individuals didn't do, to the proposal by the Spanish government to charge men higher rates of income tax on the same income, to the Israeli position that Palestinians, with their democratically elected Hamas government, are all responsible for the alleged terror attacks launched by Palestinians and that it's therefore fine to deal out death and destruction to random members of the Palestinian public.

You either treat people as individuals or you don't. If you hold people responsible for the actions of others because of the group they were born into, you don't, even if those "people" include yourself. Those are just elemental human values.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:06 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:You either treat people as individuals or you don't. If you hold people responsible for the actions of others because of the group they were born into, you don't, even if those "people" include yourself. Those are just elemental human values.


I agree with Morgan! :yay
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:07 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:


Ha! I finally remembered what that soft-soaper's "manifesto" reminded me of: the first 60 seconds of this song & video:



You think you're going to live your life alone
In darkness and seclusion... yeah, I know.
You've been out there and tried to mix with those animals
And it just left you full of humiliated confusion,
So you stagger back home and wait for nothing.
But the solitary refinement of your room spits you back onto the streets
And now you're desperate and in need of human contact.

And then you meet me - and your whole world changes.
Because everything I say is everything you've ever wanted to hear...

...
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:57 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:You either treat people as individuals or you don't. If you hold people responsible for the actions of others because of the group they were born into, you don't, even if those "people" include yourself. Those are just elemental human values.


I agree with Morgan! :yay


We need a salute smilie.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:14 pm

brekin wrote:Canadian Watcher wrote:

I wish she would have stood by what she said the first time. She didn't say ALL, she said most. And unless someone wants to present an academic study of every piece of rap/hip-hop music that proves otherwise, she should have told people who were criticizing her to get lost.


I agree, she should have gone the distance. Of course as an entertainer incredible pressure is probably applied
on her to remain pleasant and harmless.


I think she absolutely stood by what she said the first time, and her statement is not pleasant and harmless but actually expands on the original words. This was no phony, content-less capitulation to social pressure. She responded to an outcry with due respect for the critics, clarifying her phrasing to eliminate the chance they can be interpreted as unfair generalizations, still insisting correctly that misogynistic rap (and other misogynistic music and entertainment) is widespread and harmful, and reinforcing the point especially about the unrelenting sexualization of females as key.

.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:26 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
brekin wrote:Canadian Watcher wrote:

I wish she would have stood by what she said the first time. She didn't say ALL, she said most. And unless someone wants to present an academic study of every piece of rap/hip-hop music that proves otherwise, she should have told people who were criticizing her to get lost.


I agree, she should have gone the distance. Of course as an entertainer incredible pressure is probably applied
on her to remain pleasant and harmless.


I think she absolutely stood by what she said the first time, and her statement is not pleasant and harmless but actually expands on the original words. This was no phony, content-less capitulation to social pressure. She responded to an outcry with due respect for the critics, clarifying her phrasing to eliminate the chance they can be interpreted as unfair generalizations, still insisting correctly that misogynistic rap (and other misogynistic music and entertainment) is widespread and harmful, and reinforcing the point especially about the unrelenting sexualization of females as key.

.


I just think that the 'absolutely capitulate to your rightness' part was over the top, and dampened the power of the rest of her words. In fact, all anyone is going to remember is that she apologized for being wrong - the nuances will be forgotten. This is certainly worse than no apology at all, since young women who don't hear the whole story will feel dis-empowered, disappointed, and will get the message that they should keep their mouths shut the next time they feel like speaking their minds against powerful men.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:40 pm

:)
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Saurian Tail » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:46 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:And collective responsibility IS a slippery slope. It's a quick road from a belief that men are morally responsible for things they as individuals didn't do, to the proposal by the Spanish government to charge men higher rates of income tax on the same income, to the Israeli position that Palestinians, with their democratically elected Hamas government, are all responsible for the alleged terror attacks launched by Palestinians and that it's therefore fine to deal out death and destruction to random members of the Palestinian public.

Stephen,

You are committing the same fallacy again. It sure is dramatic to connect apologizing for the collective misogyny of society with dealing out death and destruction to random members of the Palestinian public. But what does one have to do with the other? That is the very essence of a slippery slope fallacy. A leads to B leads to C (which is really, really horrible and has nothing to do with A) therefore we should not even talk about A. See what I'm saying?

Furthermore, I could easily make the opposite argument ... that dealing effectively with the misogyny of society would greatly reduce the destruction being dealt out to random human beings. And I think my case would be far stronger than yours because the real violence being dealt out on a daily basis to people around the world due to misogyny is abundantly clear to anyone who cares to look.

Stephen Morgan wrote:You either treat people as individuals or you don't. If you hold people responsible for the actions of others because of the group they were born into, you don't, even if those "people" include yourself. Those are just elemental human values.

My observation is that this is actually a definition problem because in English we use the same word "guilt" for both individual and corporate guilt ... they are similar, but definitely not the same. I agree with your statement as it pertains to the first, but not to the second.

In my opinion, it is this sort of "invisibility cloak" goes a long way towards holding the power structure in place.

-ST
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:37 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:I just think that the 'absolutely capitulate to your rightness' part was over the top, and dampened the power of the rest of her words.


Maybe. I hear a light, self-deprecating irony in there, but Web writing and especially reading is notorious for stripping nuance. At any rate, unless there are now headlines everywhere blaring that she apologized without quoting her, or unless everyone reads only the first words and then skips off to yell elsewhere that she's "capitulated," you have to assume most people who even go to the piece will actually read it. I don't know if "it's worse than no apology at all," since it gives a chance to reinforce her point on the Web, and otherwise it would be the others' Web accusations versus a quote from a book (Web usually beats book for reaching people).
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