Huge explosion in Oslo

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:14 am

A whole series of different wacky explanations have now been given by the Norwegian police for why none of their officers (not even the "elite" "anti-Terror" "Delta Force") could use a helicopter to get there quickly:

1. It would have been too dangerous for the helicopter crews -- although they are tough, highly-skilled, and used to working in dangerous situations -- because the pedestrian killer had pistols and might possibly have shot at them (as opposed to just carrying on massacring children).

2. Helicopters are not suitable vehicles in such a case (i.e., an ongoing massacre [demanding a very rapid response] by one or at most two gunmen on a small island),

3. We only have one helicopter, and it was too far away at the time.

4. Plus, unfortunately, all the crew members were on holiday.

5. Besides, everyone was all tied up in Oslo, and it was possible that further attacks might happen there or elsewhere in Norway, and we would of course have had to respond quickly to those HYPOTHETICAL new attacks. (So that's why we couldn't possibly respond quickly to another ACTUAL attack elsewhere in Norway, namely the ongoing massacre of children on an island very close to Oslo, which we demonstrably already knew was happening. Because, you see, something bad MIGHT have happened elsewhere, you understand, if we had responded to the massacre on the island. So it was best just to ignore the massacre on the island, as we did.)

Am I being sarcastic? Yes. So sue me. But I am not exaggerating. These were indeed the reasons given, one after another. They are literally incredible.

Now: I posted this before about 30 pages back and it was almost completely ignored, so here it is again, with emphases added:

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Norwegian Air Ambulance

The Norwegian Air Ambulance is the air ambulance service in Norway organised through the government owned limited company Luftambulansetjenesten (Air Ambulance Service). The service provides helicopter emergency medical service (HEMS) and fixed wing air ambulance operations.

Dedicated planes are provided at six airports, and helicopters at 11 hospitals. In addition the service depends on the state Search and rescue helicopters for a full national coverage. The fixed-wing aircraft and HEMS helicopters are operated by the private companies Lufttransport and Norsk Luftambulanse on contract for the Air Ambulance Service. The rescue helicopters are operated by the Royal Norwegian Air Force 330 squadron

(...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Air_Ambulance


By the time the massacre started, PM Stoltenberg had been in a secure bunker for well over an hour, since immediately after the Oslo bombing, presumably talking to Army and Air Force chiefs, as well as police chiefs and medical and emergency-response leaders. All of these national defence systems must already have been on high alert, precisely because the government and capital city had already been attacked and new attacks were feared at any moment. "How can we best use our available airpower, including helicopters?" will undoubtedly have been a major consideration. "For a start, make sure they're fueled and ready, and that the crews are on high alert" will undoubtedly have been the obvious answer.

- Doesn't all this speak for itself?

If not (and some will inevitably insist not), then here's a link to one of many helicopter companies in Norway:

HeliWing Helicopterservice - Here you find us.

HeliWing Helicoptertservice is located south of Oslo near the theme park Tusenfryd.

Ås - Between the agricultural university at Aas and the Oslofjord town of Drobak. HeliWing also dispose of landing areas near Oslo city centre at the museum area of Bygdøy.

...

Our helicopters

Example:

AS350-BA 1-engine


Seats Pilot + 5
Speed 215 km/t
External load 750 kg
Luggage capasity Good
Endurance 3 hours
Price per. hr. ex.vat 12.000,- [Expensive, yes.]



Helicopter pilots in HeliWing - Call us directly

(Four tough-looking blokes, each of whom lists his personal phone number, in addition to the company phone number in Central Oslo.)

http://www.heliwing.no/


No doubt these skilled pilots and competent company managers, just like those Finnish lesbian holidaymakers, would have been more than happy to respond quickly to an ongoing massacre of Norwegian children, especially if asked nicely by the PM and the Air Force chiefs, or even ordered to. Requisitioning has been heard of in cases of extreme national emergency.

This is, of course, only one helicopter company out of many in Norway.

Remember, too, that a TV helicopter crew was FILMING the massacre as it went on.

-----------------------

I'll be accused of long-windedness, or maybe even obsessiveness, or (even more heinous) sarcasm, so I'll shut up now. But although the point is blatantly obvious, I'm forced to spell it out:

Norway is anything but short of helicopters and helicopter pilots, both military and civilian. The official "explanations" for the grotesquely delayed response are demonstrably untrue.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby RobinDaHood » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:21 am

stickdog99 wrote:OK, point taken. But then again, point not taken. It's like when FEMA did not allow the Red Cross into New Orleans to hand out water and deliver first aid. The island was 600 fucking meters away and kids were dying every second at the hands of a single maniac. Kids were drowning and bleeding to death in the water while other kids were getting shot up on land.

In the US, a team of two cops is deemed as a sufficient force to meet such a threat. You don't sit around waiting for back up when children are getting murdered and you and your partner and the active shooter are the only confirmed armed threats.

Sure, it's possible that the whole thing could have been a big cop ambush. I guess anything's possible. But if so, why weren't the rescuers all getting picked off? After watching the events with binoculars for a few minutes, how could you possibly just keep letting kids die without lifting a finger unless you were under direct orders to do so?

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showth ... procedures

Well i dont have a problem if the public sees my policy on it. Ours in a nut shell states do what you have to do to eliminate the threat. weather one officer goes or 4 do what you need to do to save lives.

Gotta love Texas Sheriffs

Where in 57 pages has that been proven? Lone shooter? It would seem to be a very big assumption to make, no? What about the brunette?
This is what it looks like when Barney Fife, first responder, runs in gun blazing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cMIVNntHs
Nine officers wounded. The first few responders are now victims. OOOPS Others have pointed out that the doctrine is not to run into a unknown situation. As you've pointed out, there were literally dozens of calls made to the emergency line ("I'm on the North side of Utoya Island, there's a shooter, send help!", "I'm on the South side hiding, people are dying!"). All those calls (including the texted parents calling in to any jurisdiction in the country) combined with known bodies in the water is the kind of amply vague information that would cause any first responder to put the brakes on and evaluate before acting.
It also seems important to remind everyone of this...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html
The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm

It's from 2005, and obviously only applies to the Americans on the board, but it certainly is pertinent. Maybe someone should point this out to Walker Texas Ranger you're quoting above.
I agree with you 100% that there is a very big hole in the timeline, but only on the part of the local cops.
17:27: The local police district in Buskerud learn about the shooting, and three minutes later the police in Oslo are informed.[10]
17:52: The first local police car arrives at Tyrifjorden, but the officers have to wait for a suitable craft before they can cross over to Utøya.[12]

Now I admittedly know nothing about the local geography, but when I attempted to map Buskerud at google, it showed me a town that seemed almost equidistant to Utoya from Oslo. The funny thing was that there appeared to be closer towns/villages that aren't mentioned as responding (no assets to contribute?).
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:23 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
ShinShinKid wrote:Has anyone else heard the story of the ten year old boy who spoke to the shooter? The boy ended up being spared, but his father was shot dead in front of him.


Wopw. NO.

I dunno if I want to either.


back on page 36. one of the cops i was apologizing for as it happens.:

vanlose kid wrote:*

the one cop on Utoya. must have been in on it.

Norway attack victim saved own son before dying

One of Anders Behring Breivik's first gun victims, Trond Berntsen, who shielded 10-year-old, is among names emerging

Lizzy Davies
guardian.co.uk, Monday 25 July 2011 18.11 BST

Image

Trond Berntsen was working as an off-duty police officer on Utøya when Anders Behring Breivik arrived at the shore. Unarmed and unaware of the horror that was about to be unleashed on the island, Berntsen succeeded in protecting his 10-year-old son but could do nothing to save himself. The father-of-two became one of Breivik's first victims when he was shot dead within minutes.

In a sign that the killing spree has left no sector of Norwegian society untouched, the royal court has announced that the 51-year-old was the stepbrother of Mette-Marit, Norway's crown princess.

"The crown princess's thoughts go to his closest family," a spokesman for the palace told Dagbladet newspaper.

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... -saved-son


*


*
Last edited by vanlose kid on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:24 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:If you had a boat and you rescued one of those kids and they said "He was a cop from Oslo and then he started shooting us." Would you go near an armed group of paramilitary cops in the vicinity?

Um, sure. And I'd be thinking, "Well, finally," not fearing for my life.

You have a crisis of epic proportions on your hands. You have been calling for the cops during the entire emergency and wondering where they fuck they are. Now, what are the odds that a bunch uniformed Norwegians in an official vehicle are there to kill you?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby sw » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:37 am

I don't know how I'd act in such an event. And, If I speculate, I could be wrong in my speculation.

I think normal kids would run and hide. After it was determined that the killer was dressed as a cop, I think maybe I would have tried to ambush him with a club or throw something the size of a baseball at his head to knock him out. I might have missed. I probably would have gotten killed. But, I have a guess that would be my response today.

I was an angry kid.

If this event had unfolded against a group of very angry young victims, I bet they would have slaughtered him even if they were slaughtered in the attempt.

Just wonderings.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:38 am

Dradin Kastell wrote:
barracuda wrote:How many local officers were there, anyway? Do we know? Because if it were only two or three it might make a difference as to the dynamics of their motivations. Where one man can be a hero, five can become a unit, doing what they were told. And as others here have mentioned, police aren't trained to act heroically, they're trained to use caution.


This is an important point for me too. To recap (even if it might mean I will be called a "police apologist" in this thread), this was a small-town police department on a late Friday afternoon during the summer holidays. I don't claim to know much about the police in Norway, but here in my Nordic Social Democratic Utopia a police precinct the (demographic) size of Honefoss has one or at best two mobile police patrols on duty at any given time. That would mean 2-4 officers ready to respond reasonably soon, that is if they are not handling another emergency in the other end of the municipality.

To get more officers to the scene Honefoss would have to request help from the other Nordre Buskerud stations, pull people from desk duty (which would not be a huge local reserve at the time, most cops not "on call" being already home for the day or off for the weekend), or call cops that are off-duty or on vacation back to work. It seems that by the night of the 22nd, all of this was being done.

Exactly. You wouldn't want to pull cops off that other "emergency" they were handling, make them leave their desks or bother them from their vacations just because kids are getting murdered by the dozen.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:49 am

vanlose kid wrote:
Peachtree Pam wrote:I have translated an interview with an Iranian who was on the island. It is from the Danish newspaper Politiken.

http://politiken.dk/udland/ECE1346462/o ... -panikken/

Survivors from Utøya: First came confusion, then panic



...

Ali Esbati survived the attack on Utøya. But the experience left him deeply scarred.


Ali is speaking to the yound politicians about the (political) turn to the right in the neighboring country of Sweden when the troubling sms began to come in.

A bomb has hit Oslo and many are dead. The talk was quickly ended and the 34 year old Swedish debator and economist with an Iranian background, who in recent years had lived in the Norwegian capital, did not immediately return home because of the attack on the government complex.

Instead he stayed on Utøya to eat supper with members of the Norwegian Labour party youth organization AUF.

"I stood in the main building when there was suddenly unrest, people looked out of the windows. Then I heard a sound (smaeld) and I thought: people are excited and anxious because of the bombing, it is just a bad joke", he said.

...



AJ interview with Ali Esbati, first clip from page 41 or so:

stickdog99 wrote:
vanlose kid wrote:
survivor at 0010: ... like many other people i thought it might be some kind of joke...

two survivors at 0300: ... we all thought it was a joke...

*

Yes. all that screaming and dying and bloody gore stuff must have been very easy to mistake for a joke. And these are the sound bites we get from what must be much longer interviews. We are supposed to believe that it took 20 minutes and how many people shot to death before somebody decided to dial 911 even though the PM confirmed there was a "critical situation" going on but that he was fine within 11 minutes of when the shooting began? Does anyone here actually believe that?



*


Those saying they thought it was a joke are talking about their initial response to the situation when they heard the first shots and resulting panic. Nobody is saying that anybody was laughing five minutes into the bloody massacre.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby RobinDaHood » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:55 am

RobinDaHood wrote:I agree with you 100% that there is a very big hole in the timeline, but only on the part of the local cops.
17:27: The local police district in Buskerud learn about the shooting, and three minutes later the police in Oslo are informed.[10]
17:52: The first local police car arrives at Tyrifjorden, but the officers have to wait for a suitable craft before they can cross over to Utøya.[12]

Now I admittedly know nothing about the local geography, but when I attempted to map Buskerud at google, it showed me a town that seemed almost equidistant to Utoya from Oslo. The funny thing was that there appeared to be closer towns/villages that aren't mentioned as responding (no assets to contribute?).

I think I can answer my own question. (ie.- local police response time)
Call comes in- Shooting at Utoya Island. "We'll probably need the boat for that one." So someone has to drive to where ever it's being kept, hook-up the trailer to a vehicle capable of towing it, drive to the appropriate launch site (slowly, because towing is dangerous), etc.. This will eat up much of the "missing" time.
Then, as has been noted else where, they overloaded that craft (easy to do) because they attempted to cross (what they most likely thought was an adequate sized force) at least eight (what I counted in the picture) fully kitted-up ninjas (200lbs. per man plus 50?lbs. of gear each = one ton).
The thing that must be remembered is that due care and the taking of adequate time is rule one for these cops. A lone shooter probably could have prevented any landing by an unarmored boat if he'd wanted to. The Scuba Ninja pic shows Brevick holding what I remember listed as a Mini-14 with a holographic red-dot sitting behind a magnifier (2x-4x). Find a rock and start popping shots at anyone armed near a boat. The Nazi could have kept that up for hours. That's why the cops didn't commandeer the dinghys and row-boats and just paddle over immediately.
If the first responders eat it swimming/paddling over- Who's the second responder?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:57 am

The Return of the Neocons’ Prodigal Son

Anders Behring Breivik and the Axis of Hate
by Justin Raimondo, July 27, 2011


Suggestions that the “counter-jihadist” ideology spread by such websites as Frontpagemag.com, run by neocon David Horowitz, and the affiliated “Jihad Watch,” inspired – and provoked – the Norway killer Anders Behring Breivik have been met with cries of outrage by the neoconservative Right. This is hardly surprising: confronted with the sight of someone who put their hateful and inherently violent ideology into practice, what else are they supposed to do? There is, however, a superficially reasonable case to be made against drawing any larger lesson from the Norwegian tragedy. As Gene Healy, a vice president of the Cato Institute, put it:

“In general, invoking the ideological meanderings of psychopaths is a stalking horse for narrowing permissible dissent. Former New York Times columnist Frank Rich provided a classic in the genre with his February 2010 piece ‘The Axis of the Obsessed and Deranged,’ in which he railed against the dangerous climate of anti-government rhetoric and warned that a ‘tax protester’ who flew a plane into an Internal Revenue Service building in February may be a dark harbinger of Tea Party terrorism to come. (No such luck, Frank.)

“But blaming Sarah Palin for Jared Loughner, or Al Gore for the Unabomber makes about as much sense as blaming Martin Scorsese and Jodie Foster for inciting John Hinckley. There’s little to be learned from the acts of ‘the obsessed and deranged.’ But these incidents ought to teach us not to use tragedy to score partisan points.”

All of which is true – up to a point. This is generally true, but in the case of Breivik, however, what Healy misses is the specific content of the ideas expounded in the killer’s online manifesto [.pdf], and the video which summarizes his stance. For what Breivik and the counter-jihadists are saying is that Islam is at war with the West – and that a “culture of appeasement” prevalent on our side of the barricades is delivering us to the Enemy. If you go through the material published by Robert Spencer, who is quoted in some 64 instances by Breivik, one central idea leaps out at you: we are at war with the one billion Muslims on the planet Earth. Not that we should be at war, or will be at war – the battle, in Spencer’s view, has already commenced, not on account of anything we in the West have done, but because Islamic doctrine is inherently violent and expansionist. Likewise, Pamela Geller, his collaborator in “Stop the Islamization of America” – and its European affiliate, which Breivik supported – denies the very existence of moderates in the Muslim camp. David Swindle, who writes for Horowitz’s website, describes the internal debate among counter-jihadists at one of their West Coast retreats:

“Breakfast begin [sic] with a debate between Robert Spencer and Dr. Zuhdi Jasser on the prospects for reform within Islam. Andrew McCarthy moderated and begin the talk by explaining that he still debates amongst himself over whether we’re at war with Islam or Islamism. This is a healthy debate to have and the position I find myself in at the moment. I’ll dissect Spencer and Jasser’s engaging back and forth once we have the video posted but in the mean time my position is basically that I embrace Spencer’s intellectual skepticism about the challenges reform faces but Jasser’s optimism and spirituality about the necessity of the project still wins me over.”

Even the hardcore ideologues within the Horowitzian camp find the blanket condemnation of an entire religion a bit hard to take. For if all Muslims are the Enemy, then Breivik’s agenda – mass deportations and/or mass murder – takes on an aura of legitimacy.

Spencer seems to realize this, which is why he has been backtracking and fuming over the sudden attention to his “work”:

“The hapless Adam Serwer in the Washington Post lies outright when he says that ‘most of Geller and Spencer’s blogging consists of attempts to tar all Muslims with the responsibility for terrorism….assigning collective blame for an act of terror through guilt-by-association.’ In ten books, hundreds of articles, and over 25,000 blog posts, I have never “attempted to tar all Muslims with the responsibility for terrorism,” and challenge Serwer to prove his claim.”

Horowitz “defends” Spencer by writing:

“Robert Spencer has never supported a terrorist act. His crime in the eyes of the left is to have told the truth about Islamic fanatics beginning with the Islamic prophet who called for the extermination of the Jews and said in his farewell speech that he was called to fight until all men say that there is no God but allah. (see Bruce Thornton’s article today’s Frontpage).”

While not coming right out and saying all Muslims should be deported and/or killed, Spencer – and Horowitz – believe Muhammad’s followers pose a deadly and imminent physical threat. Oh, and by the way, go read another Islam-is-evil rant, which supposedly proves Horowitz’s point. These people condemn themselves out of their own mouths.

Spencer is a fake-“scholar” whose innumerable polemics are all about the same thing: the intractable evil and danger posed by Islam. He believes there is a conspiracy to impose Sharia law on America, and annex the United States to a “global caliphate.” This is the stuff of pure fantasy, and yet anyone who takes it seriously and accepts its premises has to believe that the Muslim world must be challenged militarily – which is precisely what neoconservatives have been urging since well before the 9/11 terrorist attacks. And they succeeded in their mission, to a large degree: today we are embarked on a worldwide crusade which involves the invasion and occupation of a great deal of the Middle East. Breivik and his collaborators – if any – are simply taking it one step further, and in that they are more consistent than their neocon brethren, who prefer to have other people fight their wars of choice.

The neoconservative agenda [.pdf] is about one thing and one thing only: the desirability and necessity of a war to the death against the Muslim Enemy. Their relationship with Breivik is identical to the links between the “theoreticians” of yesterday’s New Left – Herbert Marcuse, Franz Fanon, etc. – and the activist rank-and-file, the college professors and the kids. Spencer is the theory: Breivik is the practice.

A screed posted on Horowitz’s website defends Spencer as being a mere “researcher” whose job it is to “monitor” the Muslim Threat. The pose of impartiality is supremely unconvincing. Spencer is a “researcher” in the same sense as Breivik: both start out with a foregone conclusion and then “research” assiduously to rationalize their preexisting agenda.

Breivik’s hate, expressed in terms of violence, is repulsive and therefore “fringe” – and yet Spencer and his ilk are the “respectable” proponents of the same basic ideology. Breivik was consigned to the margins, a member of a small sect – the “Knights Templar Europe” – which may very well have consisted of one member, himself. Spencer, on the other hand, has achieved a measure of quasi-respectability – or, at least, respectable enough to be included in a “training session” for military intelligence and law enforcement agencies.

Do we really want the man who inspired the worst mass murder in recent memory “training” our military and instructing our police in the intricacies of “Jihad in America”? That is just asking for trouble.

I have to add that there is one person who accurately foresaw this coming, and it is none other than my old adversary Charles Johnson, of the “little green footballs” website. Johnson is a former counter-jihadist who balked when his former buddies, like Geller, began palling around with the English Defense League and their continental co-thinkers around the “Gates of Vienna” and Brussels Journal sites. Johnson warned, more than once, that this could lead to nothing but bad-and-crazy, and raised the alarm: unfortunately, no one listened. While I have absolutely nothing in common politically with Johnson – indeed, quite the opposite – I have to give him credit for his remarkable prescience in calling out the dangerous transatlantic alliance between our homegrown haters and the Euro-crazies of Breivik’s sort.

Breivik, Spencer, and the burgeoning anti-Muslim mini-industry that sprang up after 9/11 constitute an Axis of Hate, one that inevitably grew out of the “axis of evil” rhetoric employed by the Bush administration and their neoconservative Rasputins to justify the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. For over a decade, the West has been awash in a sea of propaganda targeting the Muslim world as a “swamp” which has to be “drained” for the good of humankind. Is it any wonder that some took seriously the comparison of Muslims to mosquitoes and embarked on an eradication campaign?

Which brings us to the oddest aspect of this tragedy: instead of turning his murderous hatred on the congregants of a mosque, Breivik slaughtered defenseless children attending a Norwegian Labor Party youth camp – all native Norwegians, and not a likely venue in which to find Muslims. The camp, held yearly, is a rite of passage for the children of the ruling Norwegian Labor Party elite – and this reflects another measure of the influence Breivik’s American co-thinkers had on him. Central to the analysis offered by Spencer, and the Islamo-haters in general, is the idea that the West is asleep, and their job is to awaken it to the imminent danger posed by Islam. And this isn’t a benign sleep, in their view, or a natural one: the public has been liberally dosed with the poison of “multiculturalism” by the “elites,” who have engendered a “culture of appeasement.” This sort of language, echoed in Breivik’s “European Declaration of Independence,” is a common theme in counter-jihadist circles. In an interview with Melanie Phillips, author of Londonistan, Frontpage’s Jamie Glazov asks:

“Glazov: Describe for us Britain’s culture of appeasement. What do you think engendered it?

“Phillips: Various factors. First, the kind of moral inversion and cultural slide I’ve just been talking about. Next, sheer funk. Then there’s Britain’s deep reluctance – which it shares with the US – to get stuck into issues of religion. It’s a kind of fastidiousness that religion represents private space into which a liberal society should not intrude –which is fine, all other things being equal, but which of course here they are not.…

“Finally, don’t forget that before a certain Winston Churchill came along and inspired the ‘bulldog breed’ who stoically endured the Blitz and saw off Hitler, Britain in the 1930s was cheering to the echo Neville Chamberlain’s ‘peace in our time’. There is an insularity to the British that leads them to think that, provided they don’t upset anyone beyond their island fastness, nasty people in far-away places will leave them alone. And besides, the British ruling class have always done appeasement. Think of their betrayal of the Jews and kowtowing to the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine.”

Besides an admiration for Winston Churchill, Phillips and Breivik share the same obsession with enforcing cultural purity and blaming decadent liberal elites for a loss of national identity:

“Multiculturalism has turned Britain’s values inside out – and the root cause of the problem is the deconstruction of Britain’s identity. For decades, the British elite has been consumed by loathing of its national identity and values which it decided were racist, authoritarian and generally disagreeable. Much of that was due to our old friend, post-colonial guilt. The elite was therefore vulnerable to the predations of the left, which had signed up to Gramsci’s insight that a society could be suborned by replacing its normative values by the mores of those who transgressed them or were on society’s margins.”

Breivik, too, targets Gramsci and the Frankfurt School as the conspiratorial bogeymen behind the Western elite conspiracy to eradicate traditional culture and – quite improbably – raise the crescent flag over “Londonistan.” So the main enemy, it turns out, isn’t Muslims at all – it’s the “elites,” as Phillips (and Breivik) characterize them, our own leaders who are betraying us. That’s why Breivik turned his gun on the youth camp at Utoya island: he was eliminating future progenitors of the “culture of appeasement,” which Phillips describes with such gusto in her interview with Glazov, describing it as the idea that:

“All cultures were equal to each other and which thus provided minorities with an enormous weapon with which to force the majority to give in to their demands. One of the consequences of this was moral inversion, which holds that since minorities are weak they must always be victims of the majority because it is strong. So even when minorities behave badly, it’s always the majority’s fault. Translate that onto the world stage, and you arrive at the view that even when third world people commit terrorist outrages against the west it must be the west which is to blame. That’s why multicultural Britain said, after 9/11, that America ‘had it coming to them’ – and why, after the London bombings last July, it said the reason British Muslim boys had blown up the London transit system was because of Britain’s support for the US in Iraq.”

As one of Britain’s few but loudmouthed neocons – they actually have a Henry Jackson Society over there! – Phillips couldn’t help putting a foreign policy gloss on her point, because that, indeed, is the point. To the counter-jihadists, such as Phillips – and the David Horowitz types in this country – the goal is to provide enough ideological fuel to keep the flagging “war on terrorism” going. With a war-weary public, and even many Republicans, calling for US withdrawal from Afghanistan, and cuts in the military budget, the War Party is in a panic. They are going into overdrive pushing this “stop the Islamization of the West” campaign as a counterweight to the overwhelming desire of Americans to attend to our own business right here at home.

As the temporary madness imbued by the 9/11 terrorist attacks wore off, a systematic campaign of anti-Muslim provocations was launched, starting with the Muhammad cartoons and ending in the growth of anti-Muslim gangs like the English Defense League. One could attribute this to spontaneous forces acting without direction, but when it comes to the intrigues of nations, I can’t help but think of what Ayn Rand said in, I believe, The Fountainhead: Don’t bother to examine a folly, ask yourself only what it accomplishes.

Who benefits from a wave of anti-Muslim hysteria and terrorism carried out by previously unknown groups such as Breivik’s “Knights Templar Europe”? This is the first but not the last question one has to ask, and other questions naturally follow, such as: how did Breivik manage to finance his terrorist operation, which was begun, full-time, starting in at least 2009? Aside from his own boasting about having started several successful companies, we don’t really know how Breivik made a living through all the years of preparation for his day of terror, except what’s on the public record: his Facebook page, and official records, some of which are coming to light. We know he is the sole director of Breivik Geofarm, a business with 790 employees engaged in growing vegetables. I see no evidence of his having seriously worked for a living, although he did get a degree in management. But what was he managing – and who were the investors? There are also rumors he gave a lot of money to the counter-jihadist movement. Where did it come from?

Aside from these mysteries, however, another point needs to be made, and that is the key link between the theorists of the counter-jihadist movement, such as Phillips, Horowitz, et al., and its practitioners, or street-level activists, such as Breivik. In her Frontpage interview, Phillips is asked what inspired her to write Londonistan. Her answer unlocks the mystery of why Breivik chose to slaughter Norwegian children, whose declining birth rate he decries in his magnum opus, and in particular the children of Norway’s political elite:

“I was just appalled by the fact that, not only had Britain become the key European hub of Islamist extremism and terrorism during the 1990s under the noses of the British authorities, but even after both 9/11 and last year’s suicide bombings in London the British political and security establishment is still appeasing Islamist extremism, and remains in a state of denial about the threat to the west. After the London bombings, when home-grown British Muslim boys set out to murder as many of their fellow British citizens as possible, a senior London police officer went on TV and said that the words Islam and terrorism did not go together. If a threat is so badly misunderstood in this way, it will not be defeated.”

If the British – or Norwegian – political and security establishment has, in effect, gone over to the enemy, then Breivik’s actions – in the context of this implacable Spencerian war between Islam and West – are entirely justified. If the security and political establishment won’t defend the West against the Muslim Threat, then the Knights Templar Europe surely must. Given Phillips’ thesis that the authorities had gone over to the enemy, Breivik could depict himself as a Crusader out to save the West. Along with Phillips, Breivik believes that Western elites aren’t merely inadequate – they’re treasonous Quislings.

Let American neocons try to scramble out of taking responsibility for their European offspring all they want, for all the good it will do them. The family resemblance is too strong to be denied.

And please don’t give me any guff about “guilt by association.” The neocons have been playing that game for years: indeed, they may have invented it. They can dish it out, but they sure can’t take it – well, isn’t that tough?

The neocons should embrace their Prodigal Son, who is at last returning home, and the proof of parentage is right there in front of our eyes: in Breivik’s by now very public utterances, of which we have probably not heard the last. I’m counting the moments until he starts quoting Robert Spencer at his trial.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:01 pm

*

have been trying to get talk on this started a few times in the thread, hasn't happened. have only managed to do it IRL. Brievik is not an anomaly, nor a freak madman, not a lone-nut but a lone wolf (there's a distinction), clear-headed, knew exactly what he was doing. nor was he an extremist or fringe. he might have been 10 years ago. now he's the mainstream. in my view this is not a conspiracy. it's the new normal.

the psyop was 9/11 and the new media discourse/saturation that followed. psyops is a means, this is one of its ends. the seed was planted there and this is just one of the fruits. i think it's the tipping point and i only see this act strengthening the ideology behind it. i see a decoupling happening. there will be no fight back. there is no one to fight back.

Ex-Berlusconi minister defends Anders Behring Breivik
Northern League member says Norwegian killer's ideas are in defence of western civilisation


John Hooper in Rome guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 27 July 2011 15.28 BST Article history

Image
Oriana Fallaci, the Italian journalist and author who popularised the term Eurabia for a supposedly Islamised Europe. Photograph: Gianangelo Pistoia/AP


One of Silvio Berlusconi's former ministers has defended the thinking of the Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

Interviewed on a popular radio show, Francesco Speroni, a leading member of the Northern League, the junior partner in Berlusconi's conservative coalition, said: "Breivik's ideas are in defence of western civilisation."

Speroni spoke as other right-wingers around Europe, including leading officials of his own party, distanced themselves from the massacre on Utøya and the ideology that inspired it.

The Italian politician was endorsing the comments of another high-profile member of the league who had drawn fierce criticism for arguing that the killings might have been part of a plot to discredit hardline conservative thinkers. Like many in his party, Mario Borghezio, who sits in the European parliament, is an admirer of the writings of the late Italian journalist and author Oriana Fallaci, who popularised the term Eurabia to describe a future, supposedly Islamised Europe.

Borghezio, a member of the European parliament's committee on civil liberties, justice and home affairs, suggested that there was something suspicious about the fact that Breivik had been able to move around freely until last Friday. He said he disagreed with the way "this massacre is being used to condemn positions like that of Oriana Fallaci".

While describing the Norwegian killer as "unbalanced", Borghezio said: "Christians ought not to be animals to be sacrificed. We have to defend them." His comments brought outraged demands for his expulsion from opposition politicians and at least one member of the Berlusconi government.

The party's chief organiser, Roberto Calderoli, who also sits in the cabinet, responded with a public apology to Norway "and above all to the relatives of the victims for the terrible, unspeakable remarks made in a personal capacity by [Mario] Borghezio". His gesture was almost immediately undermined, however, when Speroni spoke up in defence of his party colleague, using even franker language than Borghezio.

Unlike his fellow MP, who is notorious for headline-grabbing, extremist comments, Speroni is a Northern League heavyweight. He was the minister for institutional reform in Berlusconi's first government between 1994 and 1995 and has since been the league's chief whip in the senate, the upper house of the Italian legislature, and the European parliament.

"I'm with Borghezio. I don't think he should resign", Speroni said. "If [Breivik's] ideas are that we are going towards Eurabia and those sorts of things, that western Christian civilisation needs to be defended, yes, I'm in agreement," he told Radio 24.

In France, the National Front announced on Tuesday it had suspended a former local election candidate who made remarks on his blog that were interpreted as supportive of Breivik.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... ds-breivik


*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:58 pm

DrVolin wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:Except they knew that only one gunman had gone across to the island on the ferry, that they therefore heavily outnumbered him, and that a commando force was on the way just in case.


No one knew this at the time. It was one of many reports. In fact, we don't even know it now.


The police couldn't have asked people on the shore, or the bloke driving the boat (who had returned to land)?
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:58 pm

stickdog99 wrote:OK, now I am confused. All of these quotes come from an AP article. Since when do AP articles ravage Western police forces like this?


Not, "western", but "Norwegian".
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby norton ash » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:08 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:OK, now I am confused. All of these quotes come from an AP article. Since when do AP articles ravage Western police forces like this?


Not, "western", but "Norwegian".


Okay, since when does the AP ravage another American-ally fascist police force in Christendom? Hmm, not much better.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:14 pm

That Cressida Dick has been promoted at least twice since "shooting" to fame in the "Speedy" de Menezes case, and has been given a medal. She's one of the favourites to be the next Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, after Sir John resigned over the recent scandal.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:18 pm

I see that his farm, gun-toting crazies are often farmers, was formerly used for trans-shipping and growing marijuana.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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