CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so fast

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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby 23 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:20 pm

Yes and no, I think.

Power and control abuse only appear problematic to the middle class when the middle class isn't able to hold on to what they have and/or acquire more.

A fat and happy middle class doesn't mind having rich and poor classes in place, I've noticed.

It's when the middle class feels that it can't remain middle class (and fears becoming part of the poor class), that it aims its daggers towards the rich.

I always suspected that a contented middle class was the chief culprit for keeping the rich and poor classes in place.

On a tangential note, there is an economic system that is principally based on mutual cooperation. Maybe VK can shed some light on mutualism here.

hava1 wrote:I agree. the major struggle has always been against Abuse of power, control etc.

Hammer of Los wrote:
hava wrote:(A)re there only two options? Hierarchical exploitative unity or chaos? Its a huge philosophical question, I dont know the answer(.)


Well said.

I choose to believe that coercion or chaos are not the only options. The third option is cooperation, the sense of which is innate to all of us.

Just maybe we can learn to cooperate freely, not in the sense of what is in it for me, which puts me in conflict with you, but in the sense of what is in it for all who cooperate freely together to achieve a single objective.

And maybe, most importantly, when the coerced learn how and when not to cooperate, they will understand when cooperating is not in their best interests, nor in the best interests of all. I am hopeful that this is what is happening in Egypt.

And maybe those who coerce to achieve their own objectives will learn that it avails them nothing, only builds resistance, and leads to conflict.

So perhaps there is hope for the world.

It's an open question.

:)
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby lupercal » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:13 am

hava1 wrote:are there only two options ? hierarchical exploitative unity or chaos ? its a huge philosophical question, I dont know the answer, but maintaining unjust tyrranical regimes for the sake of unity, in our global world, is...depressing. But I agree that the USA destroyed many of its client states in the same manner, of encouraging domestic revolts on the grounds of equality demands. i think the masters in DC look at history in broad paint brush, without looking too much into the "price" of change the deem desirable FOR THOSE people. Its not unique to them, its actually attributed to COmmunist revolution (destory the old world to the ground and build a new one).

Thanks hava1, very good question, though I'm not sure I follow altogether. If you're asking were there only two options available to Egypt, suffering under an oppressive regime and a CIA-backed military coup, I'd agree that there's a universe of better alternatives. But that's what we're looking at, and if you're wondering if "the masters in DC," who might be better described as the masters in London and Langley, have the slightest concern for the welfare of Egypt or its citizens, the answer is emphatically non, never, not a shred, not a jot. Just the reverse. These outfits are crawling with Malthusians and psychopaths like our last pres and veep but that's another story. Maybe Obama has a warm feeling now and then, maybe Hilly feels a pang or two, but when it comes to "foreign policy" they do as the spooks tell them and spooks are the biggest bunch of democracy-hating misanthropes you'd ever want to see. Look at 911, Mumbai, look at the Afpak drones and the last two Gulf wars.

So, while it's conceivable that this or another ginned up color "revolution" could be hijacked by a populace and yield social, economic or political benefits, the chances are slim to none. It hasn't happened yet that I know of, not in the short term anyway. Decades out of course another fake revolution might be necessary, see Iran. So far they've had three, the last one having failed. But I hope I'm wrong and Egypt will be the exception.

Anyway here's Stephen Lendman marveling at the glorious benefits of this people-powered CIA coup:
................................................................................
Egypt's Military Declares Martial Law
By Stephen Lendman, 15 February, 2011, Countercurrents.org

World headlines are worrisome. On February 13, London's Guardian headlined Egypt's military rejects swift transfer of power and suspends constitution," saying:

Ruling generals rejected protester demands, saying they intend "to rule by martial law until elections are held." The announcement followed suspension of constitutional rule, retention of Mubarak's cabinet, and military police head, Mohamed Ibrahim Moustafa Ali, ordering protesters out of Tahrir Square under threat of arrest.

Many left "but a hardcore refused, saying they would remain until the army took a series of steps toward democratic reform including installing a civilian-led government and abolishing the repressive" Emergency Law, in force since 1981.

Instead, communiques have said chaos, disorder and strikes are prohibited, an ominous police state sign tolerating no dissent for an indefinite period. In other words, new faces are enforcing Mubarak-style despotism if harsh crackdowns follow. [Without the Mubarak-style economic prosperity, of course.]

Many pro-democracy supporters were alarmed, including Mohamed ElBaradei saying "We need heavy participation by the civilians. It cannot be the army running the show." One of the protest organizers, Mahmoud Nassar, said demonstrations will continue, adding:

"The revolution is continuing. Its demands have not been met. The sit-in and protests are in constant activity until the demands are met. All are invited to join."

On February 14, Reuters headlined, "Army orders last protesters out of Egypt's Tahrir," saying:

Those who held out out were cordoned by military police and soldiers, then told to leave under threat of arrest. One there said:

"We have half an hour left, we are condoned by military police. We don't know what to do. We are discussing (it) now. (They) told us we have one hour to empty the square" or else.

On February 14, New York Times writers Anthony Shadid and David Kirkpatrick headlined, "Army Clears Last Protesters from Tahrir Square," saying:

Egypt's military removed them to consolidate "their control over what it has called a democratic transition" from Mubarak's authoritarian rule. "How completely the military will deliver on its promises of a transition to a constitutional democracy will not be clear until the election," announced in six months with no specific date.

On February 14, Haaretz said "(s)oldiers scuffled with protesters....as the army sought to ensure traffic flow through the central Cairo square." Friday may prove decisive when a huge "Victory March" is planned, "perhaps remind(ing) the military of the power of the street" against which it has plenty of its own to exert.

Everything so far is uncertain, including:

-- transition to civilian rule if it comes and when;

-- a revised or new constitution if there is one with real democratic changes;

-- rescinding emergency power rule if ordered;

-- abolishing military courts;

-- open, free and fair elections if they're held;

-- candidates allowed to run, assuring transfer to civilian rule;


-- ending temporary martial law authority;

-- releasing political prisoners;

-- allowing media freedom and dissent;

-- and other protester demands.


According to City University London Professor Rosemary Hollis:

"The two big questions now are who is going to be on the constitutional committee to redraft (a new document), and are there any guarantees that what they come up with is then going to be deemed the way ahead," according to protester demands. So far, uncertainty and gray areas remain.

Some believe that transitioning to democracy won't be easy after decades of authoritarianism. Old ways die hard, including military rule, fraudulent elections, rampant corruption, and police state harshness against dissent.

For now, unease grips the country. Pro-democracy activists remain committed, but most so far dispersed. On Monday, however, hundreds of employees demonstrated outside a Bank of Alexandria Cairo branch, urging their bosses to "Leave, leave," echoing their anti-Mubarak chant.

Other protests, sit-ins and strikes occurred at state-owned institutions across Egypt, including the stock exchange, textile and steel firms, media organizations, the postal service, railways, and Culture and Health Ministries. An array of grievances were aired, but authorities now prohibit public actions.

On February 14, London Independent writer Robert Fisk headlined, "Is the army tightening its grip on Egypt," saying:

Mubarak's appointed prime minister, former General Ahmed Shafiq, said his first priorities were "peace and security (to prevent) chaos and disorder," the same words Mubarak used so often. "Plus ca change" plus c'est la meme chose? The more things change, the more it's the same thing, unfolding in real time in Egypt.

What began peacefully turned harsh. "Military policemen in red berets....emerged to control traffic. But then a young officer began lashing demonstrators with a cane - old habits die hard in young men wearing uniforms - and for a moment there was a miniature replay of the fury (displayed by) the state security police here on 28 January."

At issue is whether ousting Mubarak handed control to generals "who achieved their power and privilege under" him. Also, no specific election date was announced nor if it'll be open, free and fair as promised. Moreover, though military council authorities said its power will last six months, it's unknown if they'll renew or extend it indefinitely.

"But a clear divergence is emerging between the demands of the young men and women who brought down the Mubarak regime and the concessions - if that is what they are - (if) the army (is) willing to grant them." The combination of emergency and martial law power leaves the military free "to ban all protests and demonstrations as Mubarak" decreed. So far at least, plus ca change indeed!

Hints but No Confirmation of Coming Changes

Al Jazeera and other reports say ruling Egyptian generals gave indications of moving rapidly to amend the constitution by popular referendum and share power with civilians, according to Britain's Foreign Secretary William Hague. He said Prime Minister Ahmed Shafik told him he'd reshuffle his cabinet ahead in weeks to include opposition figures.

On February 14, New York Times writers David Kirkpatrick and Anthony Shadid headlined, "Egypt's Ruling Generals Meet with Opposition," saying:

They "told a coalition of young opposition leaders that they plan to convene a panel of distinguished jurists to submit a package of constitutional amendments within 10 days for approval in a national referendum within two months...." At the same time, they reacted angrily to strikes and public demonstrations, including by state workers, ordering them stopped.

At issue, of course, is whether promises mean real change or whether what's coming is more pretense than reform. Remain skeptical as events unfold, accepting nothing on face value. Real democracy excludes generals. Their presence under martial law is very worrisome.

Stratfor's Assessment

Stratfor's George Friedman speculated on what's ahead, saying:

"Except for Mubarak, the army remains in charge, (and) the fundamental warp and woof of Egypt is intact. We've not had a dramatic sea change....I don't know what (generals mean by) democracy." Anything ahead is possible, but rhetoric doesn't explain. "Pay very little attention to (what's being said) at this point. Even as we saw (earlier), we didn't have to pay attention to what Mubarak said. So let's take a look at the objective situation. Let's forget all the statements and so on."

Egypt's army is in full control. It's the nation's "central institution" and its most powerful. "Do I expect an election in which a dramatic change takes place in who (gets) elected? I suspect not, but (then) I'm not even sure when elections" are coming. All that's clear is that generals are in charge. They'll pretty much do what they want as they've always done.

In a follow-up commentary, Friedman said post-Mubarak, "the military regime in which he served has dramatically increased its power. This isn't compatible with democratic reform."

At this point, we don't know what's ahead. However, "(p)ower rests with the regime, not with the crowds. In our view, the crowds never had nearly as much power as many have claimed." Dispersed, for sure they don't, and once energy ebbs, reenergizing it isn't easy, especially if military forces abandon friendliness for harsh crackdowns.

What happened so far wasn't a revolution. The military-controlled regime remains in tact, solidified by coup d'etat rule. Only Mubarak's gone. A powerful junta remains. It's run Egypt for decades. It's hard imagining they'll stop in six month, perhaps ever unless real revolutionary change forces them. So far, it's nowhere in sight, but possibly could emerge. As Friedman explains:

"N)othing much has really happened in Egypt. It doesn't mean that it won't, but is hasn't yet. An 82-year-old man (was deposed), and his son will not be president. The constitution and parliament are gone and a military junta is in charge. The rest is speculation." Indeed so, especially against raw military power if unleashed.

A Final Comment

So far, little in Egypt changed. Its military remains in charge, governing by martial and emergency law rule. Curfews are still enforced, shortened from 10 to six hours nightly. Diktats are being issues, called communiques, Mubarak's appointed Prime Minister Ahmad Shafiq saying, "There is no change in form, or method, or the process of work. Matters are stable completely." Protests, unrest, instability and chaos will face crackdowns. No permanent Gaza border opening is planned.

Tahrir Square protester Adel el-Ghendy expressed alarm saying:

Soldiers "told us to go. They removed our tents but we will stay. We want another government. We need civilian government. They want to steal our revolution."

Another man, Ahmed Abed Ghafur, said:

"This is a revolution, not a half-revolution. We need a timetable for elections. We need an interim government," not one by generals. "We need a (civilian) committee for a new constitution. Once we get all that, then we can leave the square."

Reports said skirmishes broke out. At least 30 arrests were made. Detainees were taken to a military compound near Egypt's museum where others arrested earlier were beaten and tortured.

Others worry that military authorities won't keep promises, including ending martial and emergency law rule. They're part of Egypt's ruling class aligned with business, other elite interests, Washington, Israel and the West.

Under Mubarak, they were hostile to social, political and economic demands, including human and civil rights, better jobs, higher wages, improved living conditions, and democratic reforms. Why now should they change, including by fulfilling promises perhaps made to be broken?

http://countercurrents.org/lendman150211.htm
...................................

And let's not even talk about their ruined economy or inflation or the inevitable IMF loans, privatization, and austerity measures heading their way..
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:05 am

I dont know that the CIA is behind this one, or which faction in the CIA's of sorts. (that's not a homogenous situation). From the signals in Israel, the usual suspects were not updated. Israel's economy is not going to gain from this revolution. However, there are always chances that such revolt will bring upon it the wrath of the lords of the old guard. Israel definitely had more military power, but without western backing, I dont see Bibi waging a war, but of course he might do that for domestic reasons.

SOmeone once asked me, what would I do if I saw a new leader rising and saying all the right things, BUT i would be informed that he is "their man" (lets say, cia for the sake of storytelling). I said, I would still vote for him...I hope that clarifies something. Its like, what would you vote for, Obama (potentially controlled by ptb of sorts, or...what ? Palin ?). personally, i think that people in their right mind and ability should opt out of this region).

If all of us here, in the Middle East thought "what the heck, the CIA runs the show anyway", where would we end ? at least the slaves are rising, and I pray for us, them, whoever, that we stay safe and win some freedom, or more freedom and allocation of resources.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:26 am

According to the thinking of my leftist compatriots(whom I love!)...

1) All popular revolt is a CIA ops

2) If the CIA wants to overthrow or attack a country, then therefore the country is a good guy.

This is the thinking of most parapolitical and some leftist sites.

Yet...I can still hate the governments of China, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc as MUCH as I dislike the US, UK, and Israeli government. Things arent so black and white.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:35 am

From experience :), there are worse regimes than those of CIA-client-wreck state...that's for sure.


8bitagent wrote:According to the thinking of my leftist compatriots(whom I love!)...

1) All popular revolt is a CIA ops

2) If the CIA wants to overthrow or attack a country, then therefore the country is a good guy.

This is the thinking of most parapolitical and some leftist sites.

Yet...I can still hate the governments of China, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc as MUCH as I dislike the US, UK, and Israeli government. Things arent so black and white.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:18 pm

The closest to the cooks of this revolution, there is a "find" in israeli internet of this group

http://www.crisisgroup.org/

You can google the names, and see their position on Egypt, with Bzezinsy starring, and from the Egyptian side Al bardei etc.

Thats not CIA per se, athough I am sure its represented :)

---

The point that depressed me, in reading briefly this site, is that our reps there, (namely on behalf of ISrael) are the mubaraks themselves. (shimon Peres, Stanley Fisher and more benign SHlomo Ben Ami), and of course since Soros is Jewish, he is another mouth for me, we dine at the same resaurants in NY.

The ISrael part is all about Palestine, as important as it is, that deflects from the need to reform Israel and prevent a "crisis" and "conflict". But this arrangement of false representation is too convenient for everyone...to notice..

I prefer Soros to say, foxmans crowd, but frankly, Soros does not speak for me, he feeds on the ISraeli stalemate (domestic politics, that is).

Shimon Peres indeed might speakfor Palestine, as its not their Chi he is sucking.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby lupercal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:50 am

8bitagent wrote:According to the thinking of my leftist compatriots(whom I love!)...

1) All popular revolt is a CIA ops

2) If the CIA wants to overthrow or attack a country, then therefore the country is a good guy.

This is the thinking of most parapolitical and some leftist sites.

Yet...I can still hate the governments of China, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc as MUCH as I dislike the US, UK, and Israeli government. Things arent so black and white.

hey 8bit, where you been, and you're right, things aren't so b&w, including my analysis if we can call it that. There are plenty of popular movements that get crushed like bugs and discredited, or if that's not easily done, rarely spoken of in the corp media. The indigenous movements in India are good examples. You probably don't hear much about them, but apparently they're hugely problematic to the current regime, which helps explain their willingness to sign onto the War on Terror and play along with crap like Mumbai.

What makes Egypt and Tunisia unmistakable spook jobs is the technique, which is very little changed from Ajax, which brought down Mossadegh in 1953 and brought BP back to Iran. Twitter, Wiki and Gene Sharp notwithstanding, the fake crowds, fake stories, covert violence, agents provocateurs and orchestrated propaganda are straight from the Ajax playbook.

Speakin' of which what the hell DID change Mubarak's mind last week, anyway? Methinks it was changed for him because he showed every sign of hanging on until Leon spoke on Thursday and the next day poof, Mubarak vanished to parts unknown.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby lupercal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:11 am

hava1 wrote:I dont know that the CIA is behind this one, or which faction in the CIA's of sorts. (that's not a homogenous situation). From the signals in Israel, the usual suspects were not updated. Israel's economy is not going to gain from this revolution. However, there are always chances that such revolt will bring upon it the wrath of the lords of the old guard. Israel definitely had more military power, but without western backing, I dont see Bibi waging a war, but of course he might do that for domestic reasons.

Well, we're hearing the same thing here, i.e. the CIA was caught off guard, e.g. this story in AOL-HuffPo:

CIA's Mideast Surprise Recalls History Of Intelligence Failures
First Posted: 02-11-11 06:35 PM | Updated: 02-14-11 07:40 AM

"Despite our best intentions, the system is sufficiently dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed. Though the form is less important than the fact, the variations are endless. Failure may be of the traditional variety: we fail to predict the fall of a friendly government; we do not provide sufficient warning of a surprise attack against one of our allies or interests; we are completely surprised by a state-sponsored terrorist attack; or we fail to detect an unexpected country acquiring a weapon of mass destruction." --An excerpt from "The Coming Intelligence Failure," a Defense Intelligence Agency analysis written in 1997.

The failure of the Central Intelligence Agency to predict the unrest in Tunisia and Egypt dominated last week's Senate Intelligence Committee hearing. At one point, committee chair Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said the CIA should have had more warning of the revolts, since demonstrators were using the Internet and social media to coordinate, in many cases publicly. "Was someone looking at what was going on on the Internet?" she quipped.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/1 ... ution_1979

However, we were also told they were blindsided by 9/11, and nothing could be further from the truth. By the way I agree that "CIA" is a kind of metonym for a whole range of internationally coordinated operations and agencies including the kind-and-gentle intelligence gathering unit headed by Panetta which is basically a beard for the real business which comes out in Congressional hearings once in a blue moon, and with Teddy gone I see no blue moons rising.

hava1 wrote:SOmeone once asked me, what would I do if I saw a new leader rising and saying all the right things, BUT i would be informed that he is "their man" (lets say, cia for the sake of storytelling). I said, I would still vote for him...I hope that clarifies something. Its like, what would you vote for, Obama (potentially controlled by ptb of sorts, or...what ? Palin ?). personally, i think that people in their right mind and ability should opt out of this region).

If all of us here, in the Middle East thought "what the heck, the CIA runs the show anyway", where would we end ? at least the slaves are rising, and I pray for us, them, whoever, that we stay safe and win some freedom, or more freedom and allocation of resources.

Good points hava1, I like your point of view, but I'd counter that if slaves are cynically incited for the purpose of squeezing yet more blood out of them, it's probably better if they don't take the bait. In Iran for example replacing Mossadegh with Pahlavi and when he got funny ideas installing Khomeini didn't benefit the populace in either case that I can see.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:37 am

So this could be explained by some internal conflict within the services, and so forth

are you located in our neighborhood Lupercal (on account of your posting hours) ?

From Israel, there are two facts. 1/ the usual suspects were taken by surprise (bibi et al)
2/ we are seeing a wave of indictments major league (good development)
3/ bad point - Shimon Peres is still Pres, more so he was probably in the loop on this "revolt", which means that more trafficking is covered up.

I would assume maybe, that European services with factions in the CIA are behind it. But, I also bet that the stronger one wins eventually. So, all in all, who knows.

Youre saying that raising false hope is cruel, reminded me a scene in "Shindler's List" movie, where Shindler is spraying water in the train cars going to auschwitz. Cruel ? dont know, maybe one person was saved and jumped off...we cannot make those calculations (ie, my president dilemma example above).

I'd agree though that If the like of Peres are behind it, from my corner of the world, the slaves are up for a little satanic surprise...he never really does anything for life. I am also surprised that Arabs cooperate with the person who built DImona AND collaborated with Botha as close buddy. But...hell, what do I know.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby lupercal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:57 pm

hava1 wrote:So this could be explained by some internal conflict within the services, and so forth

That's the flimsy cover story, yes, like Panetta claiming he didn't have any specific information, but thought Mubarak could be taking a powder Thursday evening, which he didn't, but then the next day, surprise, did. In other words the "incompetence" theory is baloney. Incidentally the White House at least was not surprised. From Thursday's NY Times:

Secret Report Ordered by Obama Identified Potential Uprisings
By MARK LANDLER - February 16, 2011

WASHINGTON — President Obama ordered his advisers last August to produce a secret report on unrest in the Arab world, which concluded that without sweeping political changes, countries from Bahrain to Yemen were ripe for popular revolt, administration officials said Wednesday.

Mr. Obama’s order, known as a Presidential Study Directive, identified likely flashpoints, most notably Egypt, and solicited proposals for how the administration could push for political change in countries with autocratic rulers who are also valuable allies of the United States, these officials said.

(snip)

“There’s no question Egypt was very much on the mind of the president,” said a senior official who helped draft the report and who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss its findings. “You had all the unknowns created by Egypt’s succession picture — and Egypt is the anchor of the region.”

(snip)

The White House held weekly meetings with experts from the State Department, the C.I.A. and other agencies. The process was led by Dennis B. Ross, the president’s senior adviser on the Middle East; Samantha Power, a senior director at the National Security Council who handles human rights issues; and Gayle Smith, a senior director responsible for global development.

The administration kept the project secret, officials said, because it worried that if word leaked out, Arab allies would pressure the White House, something that happened in the days after protests convulsed Cairo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/world ... use&st=cse



are you located in our neighborhood Lupercal (on account of your posting hours) ?

Pacific time here.. how bout u?

From Israel, there are two facts. 1/ the usual suspects were taken by surprise (bibi et al)
2/ we are seeing a wave of indictments major league (good development)
3/ bad point - Shimon Peres is still Pres, more so he was probably in the loop on this "revolt", which means that more trafficking is covered up.

I would assume maybe, that European services with factions in the CIA are behind it. But, I also bet that the stronger one wins eventually. So, all in all, who knows.

Youre saying that raising false hope is cruel, reminded me a scene in "Shindler's List" movie, where Shindler is spraying water in the train cars going to auschwitz. Cruel ? dont know, maybe one person was saved and jumped off...we cannot make those calculations (ie, my president dilemma example above).

Not exactly. I'm saying that discontent was channeled by spooks (see Einstein Institute etc) into a US-UK friendly outcome that will leave Egyptians far worse off than before. In addition to the inevitable privatization, IMF loans, and austerity measures they're likely to lose control of the Suez canal, water from the Nile, and all that offshore oil BP recently discovered. And then there's Gaza..

I'd agree though that If the like of Peres are behind it, from my corner of the world, the slaves are up for a little satanic surprise...he never really does anything for life. I am also surprised that Arabs cooperate with the person who built DImona AND collaborated with Botha as close buddy. But...hell, what do I know.

I agree about the surprise. As to Arabs cooperating or collaborating, money talks, no translation needed. :|
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:19 pm

So, i guess the only news is that the CIA now does not brief Israel...that's news.
----

Maybe the only achievement people will get from this revolt is a regime which is less pro israel ? and maybe that's what they want ...

I noticed that in the arab politics a "good regime" is one that fights against Israel (at least verbally). the people are willing to trade personal rights and economic rights for this religious goal in Palestine.

Same here btw, the people follow leaders who are hardliners even if it means they lose their life style and freedom.under Bush - hating arabs was also financially sound. :)
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby lupercal » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:44 am

hava1 wrote:So, i guess the only news is that the CIA now does not brief Israel...that's news.

That would be very surprising, yes.
hava1 wrote:The closest to the cooks of this revolution, there is a "find" in israeli internet of this group

http://www.crisisgroup.org/

You can google the names, and see their position on Egypt, with Bzezinsy starring, and from the Egyptian side Al bardei etc.

Thats not CIA per se, athough I am sure its represented :)

Interesting. I hadn't heard about this outfit but it seems pretty closely involved in the propaganda effort. No, not CIA per se, maybe, but definitely a player. Here's some background on one of its funders, a guy named Peter Ackerman also who funds a lot of spooky AEI-type propaganda outfits here in the US like Freedom House (which he chaired until 2009) and Gene Sharp's Einstein Institution:
The Junk Bond “Teflon Guy” Behind Egypt’s Nonviolent Revolution
by Maidhc Ó Cathail / February 18th, 2011

On February 9, Al Jazeera aired an episode in its People and Power series entitled “Egypt: Seeds of Change.” The programme offers a revealing behind the scenes look at a core group of activists from the April 6 Youth Movement who played a crucial role in Egypt’s nonviolent revolution.

“This is not a spontaneous uprising,” reporter Elizabeth Jones stressed. “The revolution has been in the making for three years.” The key to its success, we learn, was the instruction April 6 leaders received from veterans of groups like Otpor, the student movement that brought down Serbian president Slododan Milosevic.

Srdja Popovic, a leader of that revolution, we are told, “shared his firsthand experience with April 6.” Mohamed Adel, one of the April 6 leaders, describes his training in Serbia in the tactics of nonviolent resistance, including “how to organise and get people out on the streets.” He brought back videos and teaching aids to help train the other leaders, who are shown “directing the uprising from the start.”

Since the ouster of Milosevic in 2000, Popovic has been busy spreading the gospel of nonviolent warfare. In 2003, he founded the Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies (CANVAS) in Belgrade. By spring 2010, the globe-trotting Serb reportedly had “five revolutions already under his belt.” In a Mother Jones puff piece, Nicholas Schmidle writes: “CANVAS got off to an impressive start, training the pro-democracy campaigners in Georgia, Ukraine, and Lebanon who went on to lead the Rose, Orange, and Cedar revolutions, respectively.”

But who funds it all? Schmidle, a fellow at the Soros-linked New America Foundation, quotes Popovic: “CANVAS is ‘100 percent independent from any government’ and funded entirely by private donors.” Yet an LA Times profile of Nini Gogiberidze, a Georgian employee of CANVAS, says the group is funded in part by the near-governmental organisation Freedom House.
“Gogiberidze,” the Times adds, “is among Georgia’s ‘velvet’ revolutionaries, a group of Western and local activists who make up a robust pro-democracy corps in this Caucasus country—so much of it funded by American philanthropist George Soros that one analyst calls the nation Sorosistan.”

CANVAS works closely with the International Center for Nonviolent Conflict (ICNC), with which it has shared a number of staff members—including Dr. Stephen Zunes, who has collaborated with CANVAS in training Egyptian activists. Founded in 2002, the ICNC is funded entirely by Peter Ackerman, its founding chair. Ackerman, who chaired the board of Freedom House from September 2005 until January 2009, also indirectly funds CANVAS.

Ackerman’s wealth derives mainly from his time at Drexel Burnham Lambert, the Wall Street investment bank that was forced into bankruptcy in February 1990 due to its involvement in illegal activities in the junk bond market.
As special projects aide to junk bond king Michael Milken, Ackerman cleaned up. In 1988 alone, he took home a salary of $165 million for his critical role in financing Kohlberg Kravis Roberts’s $26 billion leveraged buyout of RJR Nabisco. But four months before Drexel collapsed into bankruptcy, Ackerman “beat a fortuitously timed retreat” to the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London. While the “king” was sentenced to 10 years for securities fraud, “the highest-paid of all of Michael R. Milken’s minions” emerged as “the big winner” with a fortune of approximately $500 million—prompting one of his former colleagues to complain: “Peter Ackerman is a real Teflon guy.”

Having successfully escaped “the stench of Drexel,” Ackerman completed what BusinessWeek called “an improbable transformation from junk-bond promoter back to scholar.” Prior to his financial exploits, he had written his doctoral thesis under the guidance of Gene Sharp, the Harvard academic whose theories of nonviolent struggle had inspired the velvet revolutionaries. In fact, while he was still working for Milken, Ackerman had been funding Sharp’s Albert Einstein Institution. According to the Wall Street Journal, “A large part of ICNC’s and Canvas’s theoretical arsenal is drawn from Mr. Sharp’s writings.”

As part of his own contribution to worldwide revolution, Ackerman has helped produce two documentaries on nonviolent conflict and even a regime change video game. His film on Otpor’s toppling of Milosevic played a crucial role in the success of Georgia’s Rose Revolution, which brought George Soros protégé Mikheil Saakashvili to the presidency in 2004. Every Saturday for months, a Soros-backed TV network broadcast “Bringing Down a Dictator.” As one activist told the Washington Post, “Most important was the film. All the demonstrators knew the tactics of the revolution in Belgrade by heart because they showed [the film]…. Everyone knew what to do.”

At one point in the Al Jazeera programme, Ahmed Maher, “the main instigator of this revolution,” reveals his group’s close collaboration with Mohamed ElBaradei, the former IAEA chief, who flew back to Cairo on January 27. “From the beginning,” he said, “the April 6 Youth Movement has been allied with the groups that cooperated with ElBaradei when he returned to Egypt.” Up to his opportune return, ElBaradei and Peter Ackerman’s wife, Joanne Leedom-Ackerman, had both been board members of the Soros-financed International Crisis Group.

And for those who believe that Israel is genuinely worried about the prospect of “democratic change” south of the border, Ackerman’s participation in a roundtable discussion entitled “The Challenge of Radical Islam” at the 2008 Herzliya Conference with Uzi Landau—Ariel Sharon’s Minister of Internal Security and current member of the Knesset for Avigdor Lieberman’s Yisrael Beiteinu—should give them pause for thought.

http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/02/the-junk-bond-“teflon-guy”-behind-egypt’s-nonviolent-revolution/

From that last paragraph it looks like maybe they were briefed after all.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:37 am

I prefer to stop here, although this is an interesting subject. the reason being that this board is not discussing the Israeli domestic scene per se, and I dont want the role of a rat, or "informer" strictly speaking, that's not what I'm here for (I usually contribute info from Israel which I deem relevant for the MK-Ultra/Organized crime networks, of which I was victim).

You seem to be ignoring the popular will of Egyptians, a pretty large and established nation, where I am sure many people interfere, as everywhere, but its not a puppet and a master, so to speak, and the masters are well divided within their camp.

To sum up my partial take on this, if you dig deep you will find that the same shift changes are taking place in Israel as well, not in the streets, though.

Soros is NOT Israel, for sure, he is regarded by the right wing camp as NAzi Collaborator, no less.
Having said that, I was the one to claim that perhaps Soros IS CIA a while back on the Jstreet thread. I really dont know, from my very personal and non representative hole, these people and their stooges in Israel (peres etc.) are no better than the old guard (aipac), in fact maybe slightly worse. (that's not a political view, but again, coming from strictly my pov, re organized crime and the likes).

I am really not the person for political analysis, I am focused singularly and totally on the issue of trafficking women from Israel for sexual bribes/blackmail, and so forth, within a large organized crime network, that has legs in the Israeli political system, of course, but I regret maybe worse off in the "left" (or the "dove" camp, which I generally support politically).

Occasionally the pretext for trafficking children and women is "security" (right wing) , and more so, I suspect "for peace" (left wing). I suspect that the CIA works equally with both camps where convenient or expedient. My only hope is that within reforms, recently happening, the habit will be revised and eradicated , at least from the CIA, which will then dry the swamps in Israel. there there...my last words on this issue.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby lupercal » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:15 am

Thanks hava, I completely understand and wish you well. Your observations are much appreciated but you gotta do what you think best so à votre santé. As to ratting anyone out though, you haven't, rest assured. It's as impossible that the CIA would act without informing its local agents as the reverse so there was never any doubt about that.

You seem to be ignoring the popular will of Egyptians

That's a valid point so let me address it. I agree that my view is necessarily international, and from that perspective, this is a disaster for Tunisia, Egypt, and any other nation that falls victim to "engineered chaos," as well as for Palestinians who will shortly feel the loss of their strongest advocate, whatever foolishness the spook Guardian claims (thanks C2W). The ruinous effects on Tunisia are already manifest: smashed economy, refugees by the thousands, internal chaos, bloodshed and violence, with the same in store for Egypt, although the media circus will of course have moved on. Now as to whether Mubarak or Ben Ali were popular, I have no doubt that they weren't, or that their exit was a welcome event to many, but that doesn't mean these aren't bogus revolutions. They are.
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Re: CIA declares Mission Accomplished, Mubarak says not so f

Postby hava1 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:10 am

Ok, then.

I dont think I can rat anything that others cant find out if they took some time/effort. but I gave the same answer to "Plutonia" the other day, when s/he asked for reference on something from Israeli media, I think it was backtalks or something. I refused a little less politely than here, but same goes.

As I said, my focus here is the trafficking industry from israel, which I believe does not interest you one iota, which is fine. But other issues take from my time into fields i really dont know much about. By and large I see the struggle of Israeli women/children against traffickers from their own country, similar and en par as the struggle of any Egyptian or other person, from tyrrany and exploitation by their own. Slavery is a human condition, and more disgusting I suspect when the pimping is done by the very establishment that should be protecting and nourishing their subjects, and instead hunt them and feed on them, by selling them, literally, to foreign nations or otherwise by just eating them, so to speak.

I think the dignified individual, anywhere, will feel naturally on the side of the slaves. Other considerations, are to my taste immoral, and I find them, regertfully everywhere, including in groups like this one here, that purport to fight for freedom. So, I can only hope that Obama, being an african can by nature empathize with any slave's aspiration to gain freedom. Be it in Egypt OR in Israel or in Canada, wherever.

I am definitely not worried that the CIA is left out of the loop, and I'm not paid to worry for any given state agency these days, thank god. I do hope that those who are paid to protect me indeed do that, and not the reverse (how naive).
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