How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:41 am

Searcher08 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:26 am wrote:And so the CopyPasta crosspost deluge begins once more, complete with more racist cartoons
than a st0rmfr0nt art holiday.

Translation: "I am going to ignore everything in that post about David Icke because I don't even want to acknowledge the implications of it"...

And to think this comes from a Randiphile lover of 'critical thinking' and 'evidence'


More clumsy propaganda techniques, this time strawmanning and guilt-by-association. I have never ever claimed to be "a Randphile" and you know it, though I have held your feet to the fire regarding critical thinking (no scare quotes) and evidence- that part is true.

'bogus formulation' -
How this formulation is 'bogus' is not explained

'neat categories'
The poster actually said they were not so - comprehension fail

'insidious form of spin'
This is a propaganda technique.
It is like saying 'a hideous form of evil' or ' a monstrous form of
racism' , when in fact there has been no demonstration whatsoever of evil, racism or spin.


'propaganda, not social science'
without providing any basis of the criteria for inclusion in either of your categories.


That post is worth very little of my time and energy. You set up some categories that have broadly recognized as valid aspects but also carry problematic baggage: "HISTORICAL NAZIS, HISTORICAL ZIONISTS, HISTORICAL CONCERNED JEWS, PRESENT DAY NAZIS, PRESENT DAY HASBARA / ZIONISTS, PRESENT DAY CONCERNED-lIBERTARIANS, PRESENT DAY CONCERNED DATA BASED FOLKS". Setting off your carefully constructed categories off in opposition to each other is a key part of the strawmanning and spin which I find so objectionable.

You attach so many problematic riders:

The numbers vary from 1 to 6 million
Yikes!

Extensive collaboration of Wall Street (WASP and HISTORICAL ZIONIST) with Nazi regime before and during WW2 established by Anthony Sutton.
Antony Sutton is a dubious source to cite so authoritatively and the vague "Zionist" allegations you make are problematic.

PRESENT DAY HASBARA / ZIONISTS
Seek to shut down debate / discussion about factual data (Six Million number must not be questioned)
Questioning facts taken as evidence of being an associate of Neo-Nazis
Seek to establish Nazi Holocaust as exceptional and unique and complain about when
attempts are made to show commonality (Evidence Abe Foxman video of him in Ukraine)
Regard any questioning of their assumptions as itself Anti-Semitic
Speak of secret PRESENT DAY NAZIS using code words for Jews
See anyone connected to Anti-Semitic figures or talking about what they regard as Anti-Semitic tropes as being themselves Anti-Semites
Will treat all anti-Zionist statements as Anti-Semitic

You use "true facts" about right wing zionist infowarriors selectively to in effect tar all critics of Holocaust Revisionism with the same brush, since you never really say that all kinds of people call bullshit on: arguments about the numbers/details of the genocide, the endemic anti-Semitism/Judeophobia and friendly linkages to Duke/Shamir/Atzmon/Irving/Zundel types, etc.

PRESENT DAY CONCERNED-lIBERTARIANS
React violently to being told what are grey zones and areas that they cannot / should not go into.
Able to do their own research and make own mind up, not brow-beaten by HASBARA
Vehemently reject the HASBARA "Asking Questions" = "Anti-Semite" universal equivalence
Reject thought police, whether Zionist or Anti-Zionist
Aligned with Norman Finklestein on rejecting the "Nazi Holocaust as an industry"
See HASBARA use of 'PRESENT DAY NAZIS use code words for Jews" as designed to stifle debate and act as thought police
This would make Goebbels blush...

PRESENT DAY CONCERNED DATA BASED FOLKS
Exhaustive research of Holocaust facts done by Nizkor.
Forensic, point by point fact based debunking of the key PRESENT DAY NAZI documents like the Leuchter Report
Generally ignored by HASBARA / ZIONISTS and also by PRESENT DAY NAZIS (who refuse to debate / correspond with)
Suggests that quibbling over all the details of the Nazi mass murder is the road forward. It really is not.

And that's all the attention I'm willing to give to such an execrable and insidious formulation. Maybe you have some substantive comments to share on the Disillusioned Marxist's critiques/depictions of extreme racism in the David Icke world?
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:45 am

Searcher08 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:43 am wrote:
American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:05 am wrote:
solace » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:00 pm wrote:"Yes- a bogus formulation to me. The neat categories proffered carry an insidious form of spin. This is propaganda, not social science."

"Spin," seems tame. Agenda is more like it and it's a smelly one. This guy's a slippery one but the reliance at least twice recently on the Neturei Karta bullshit is pretty much the dead giveaway. Good thing he's got some "Jewish friends, aka alibi Jews," for camouflage.


Yes- Neturei Karts is a tiny, marginal culty group that opposes Zionism on dogmatic theological grounds, and is often appropriated by the racists as proof somehow that they're not...racist. They are indeed mostly used as "alibi Jews" in my experience...


What does their size,
marginality
**at the margin of WHAT? margin of Israeli politics? New York Jewish life? WHAT???
culty
**based on WHAT evidence? my search on Rick Ross's Cult Education Network turned up ZERO results

**opposing on dogmatic theological grounds'
How are you determining WTF are 'dogmatic' theological grounds??

I have repeatedly posted their 'Questions for Zionists' from their site and AFAIR you never actually address them in either re-butting their content or context.

Why is that? Your 'Guilt by Association' gambits still leaves their questions (and context) unanswered.

You are also specifically endorsing 'agent baiting', which is against RI rules.


I have no time for your bullshit. By no means am I violating any RI rules about agent-baiting, nor am I veering into any sort of gray zone to undermine those guidelines or anything even remotely like what you and other posters do regarding the Nazi Genocide. I have never read NK's 'Questions for Zionists' as best I can recall, and I do not care. I stand by my previous statement about them:

Neturei Kart[a] is a tiny, marginal culty group that opposes Zionism on dogmatic theological grounds, and is often appropriated by the racists as proof somehow that they're not...racist. They are indeed mostly used as "alibi Jews" in my experience...
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby slimmouse » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:22 pm

I find the notion of anyone hiding the inherent antisemitism of their nature by supporting a group of Jewish people who oppose the illegal occupation of Palestine to be ,quite frankly plain fucking stupid.

Because to me, it's counter-intuitve.

But Im open to persuasion.

Who are these alibi seekers? Any on here do you think?

Why do they choose this particular group for an alibi?

You can really help the discussion here AD.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby Searcher08 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:27 pm

American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:41 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:26 am wrote:And so the CopyPasta crosspost deluge begins once more, complete with more racist cartoons than a st0rmfr0nt art holiday.

Translation: "I am going to ignore everything in that post about David Icke because I don't even want to acknowledge the implications of it"...


And you bring in David Icke into yet ANOTHER thread?
Ignore? Too bloody right, I ignored it. This thread isnt about Icke. Or wasnt. Read up TL;DR

And to think this comes from a Randiphile lover of 'critical thinking' and 'evidence'


More clumsy propaganda techniques, this time strawmanning and guilt-by-association. I have never ever claimed to be "a Randphile" and you know it, though I have held your feet to the fire regarding critical thinking (no scare quotes) and evidence- that part is true.


I said a Randiphile, not Randphile. I never suggested you like Ayn Rand.
Part of critical thinking is holding one's OWN feet to the fire and looking at HOW one oneself formulates a basis evidence and WHAT system of logic is being used.
You yourself said it was useful to be reminded that people often have different perceptions and dont see the same thing the same way.
Clarification: you were also mistaken in my use of single quotes vs scare quotes.
Scare quotes are " " in the US; my use of single quotes was within UK usage and is meant to mark out the item as a term in a value free way.

You have NEVER addressed these points.
You refuse to discuss the basis of evidence and logic.
This allows you to be free of the hassle of examining YOUR system-of-thinking.


'bogus formulation' -
How this formulation is 'bogus' is not explained

'neat categories'
The poster actually said they were not so - comprehension fail

'insidious form of spin'
This is a propaganda technique.
It is like saying 'a hideous form of evil' or ' a monstrous form of
racism' , when in fact there has been no demonstration whatsoever of evil, racism or spin.


'propaganda, not social science'
without providing any basis of the criteria for inclusion in either of your categories.


You dis not address ANY of the clarifying questions I raised about your points.

That post is worth very little of my time and energy. You set up some categories, have broadly recognized aspects but also carry problematic baggage: "HISTORICAL NAZIS, HISTORICAL ZIONISTS, HISTORICAL CONCERNED JEWS, PRESENT DAY NAZIS, PRESENT DAY HASBARA / ZIONISTS, PRESENT DAY CONCERNED-lIBERTARIANS, PRESENT DAY CONCERNED DATA BASED FOLKS".


You have not actually engaged with anything I said.
Despite what I said at the start, you continue to treat them rigid, in or out categories

You attach so many problematic riders:

The numbers vary from 1 to 6 million
Yikes!


Extensive collaboration of Wall Street (WASP and HISTORICAL ZIONIST) with Nazi regime before and during WW2 established by Anthony Sutton.
Antony Sutton is a dubious source to cite so authoritatively and the vague "Zionist" allegations you make are problematic.


OK, so you are very concerned about facts here.

Far from being a dubious source, Antony Sutton was an impeccable researcher and outstanding academic, with a Doctor of Science in his field.
AFAIK you never rebutted any of the research which Sutton did. AFAIK no one has.
I would suggest that you find what he found out as incompatible with your worldview and refuse to incorporate it. And why are you using scare quotes around "Zionist". I made specific reference to NK. These were not vague allegations, they were detailed and specific.
You, however, have not read them.


PRESENT DAY HASBARA / ZIONISTS
Seek to shut down debate / discussion about factual data (Six Million number must not be questioned)
Questioning facts taken as evidence of being an associate of Neo-Nazis
Seek to establish Nazi Holocaust as exceptional and unique and complain about when
attempts are made to show commonality (Evidence Abe Foxman video of him in Ukraine)
Regard any questioning of their assumptions as itself Anti-Semitic
Speak of secret PRESENT DAY NAZIS using code words for Jews
See anyone connected to Anti-Semitic figures or talking about what they regard as Anti-Semitic tropes as being themselves Anti-Semites
Will treat all anti-Zionist statements as Anti-Semitic


You use "true facts" about right wing zionist infowarriors selectively to in effect tar all critics of Holocaust Revisionism with the same brush, since you never really say that all kinds of people call bullshit on: arguments about the numbers/details of the genocide, the endemic anti-Semitism/Judeophobia and friendly linkages to Duke/Shamir/Atzmon/Irving/Zundel types, etc.


Aside: I am unclear what "true facts" in scary quotes means.

I am calling bullshit on an insistence that a line of questioning entails one being a freakin Nazi.
And I am calling bullshit on the covering up of acting as a thought police on the excuse that that is what Nazis / Anti-Semites do, (which is a strategy I actually pointed out!!) implies that one is one, oneself. Which is Pretzel Logic.
Particularly coming from someone who described Nizkor as 'quibbling about the details.


PRESENT DAY CONCERNED-lIBERTARIANS
React violently to being told what are grey zones and areas that they cannot / should not go into.
Able to do their own research and make own mind up, not brow-beaten by HASBARA
Vehemently reject the HASBARA "Asking Questions" = "Anti-Semite" universal equivalence
Reject thought police, whether Zionist or Anti-Zionist
Aligned with Norman Finklestein on rejecting the "Nazi Holocaust as an industry"
See HASBARA use of 'PRESENT DAY NAZIS use code words for Jews" as designed to stifle debate and act as thought police
This would make Goebbels blush...


1 Acknowledgement of the primacy of my own thinking process
2 Acknowledgement of my right to choose where I direct my attention
3 Respect for a person's ability to research and question assumptions
4 Respect for going against the grain
5 Respect for the right to respectful enquiry and to be engaged with as such
6 Respect for factual data

Goebbels would run screaming and yelling from that.


PRESENT DAY CONCERNED DATA BASED FOLKS
Exhaustive research of Holocaust facts done by Nizkor.
Forensic, point by point fact based debunking of the key PRESENT DAY NAZI documents like the Leuchter Report
Generally ignored by HASBARA / ZIONISTS and also by PRESENT DAY NAZIS (who refuse to debate / correspond with)


Suggests that quibbling over all the details of the Nazi mass murder is the road forward. It really is not.


** That comment landed with me as frankly, ghastly**
Who are YOU to determine what is 'quibbling over all the details' over a fucking GENOCIDE????
Having a detailed factual evidence base is an extremely powerful means of refutation for people who may have been taken in by the Far Right and are not ideologues.
It is actually dealing with real world documented evidence.
So when you are faced with a real-world evidence based approach (one which you neglect to mention fascists actually RUN AWAY from, and consistently refuse to debate, despite their devious attempts to say they are always 'welcome it') you SHUN it.
WTF does that say about what you regard as evidence??

nd that's all the attention I'm willing to give to such an execrable and insidious formulation. Maybe you have some substantive comments to share on the Disillusioned Marxist's critiques/depictions of extreme racism in the David Icke world?


No self-reflection or critical thinking on your own assumptions, and an unwillingness to discuss both your evidence criteria and logic. An off-topic multiply posted CopyPasta deluge is neither debate nor exploration.
I have posted lots on my thoughts about many aspects of Icke (whom you see as black and white with a hint of grey). I dont. BFD Your response varies from truly getting that I would far rather be producing something constructive between us to appearing to see me as a NAZI fanatic dreaming of invading fucking Poland by myself.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby Searcher08 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:53 pm

American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:45 pm wrote:I have no time for your bullshit. By no means am I violating any RI rules about agent-baiting, nor am I veering into any sort of gray zone to undermine those guidelines or anything even remotely like what you and other posters do regarding the Nazi Genocide. I have never read NK's 'Questions for Zionists' as best I can recall, and I do not care. I stand by my previous statement about them:

Neturei Kart[a] is a tiny, marginal culty group that opposes Zionism on dogmatic theological grounds, and is often appropriated by the racists as proof somehow that they're not...racist. They are indeed mostly used as "alibi Jews" in my experience...


Firstly, you endorsed solace's agent baiting post, which I reported as against the Board Rules, so BS on that.
Secondly, your argument against NK is based on saying that they are somehow insignificant because of size, mainstream acceptance, unspecified 'dogmatic theology' and appropriation and leaves totally unaddressed and ignored what they actually SAY.
It addresses nothing of what NK say about Zionists during WW2.

Personally, I think refusing to look at what they say is not modelling valuing evidence

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/RakBedam.cfm

excerpt from Sefer Min Hametzar
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva and author of min hametzar

The following is an excerpt from Sefer Min Hametzar (p-92) by Rabbi Michael Ber Weismandel OB"M. The excerpt is a literal translation of the letter the Jewish Rescue Committee in Czechoslovakia received from the Zionist "Jewish" Agency Executive Officers in Switzerland. This was in reply to the call of the Jewish Rescue Committee for help, with Documentary evidence furnished, concerning the fate of millions of Jewish people in Nazi occupied Europe.


"We are writing to remind you of the one factor of which you must never lose sight: that ultimately, the Allies will win the war. After their victory, territorial boundaries will be reshaped, as they were after the First World War. Then, the way will be clear for our purpose. At this time, with the war drawing to a close, we must do everything in our power to change Eretz Yisroel into Medinat Yisrael and many steps have already been taken in this regard. Therefore, we must turn a deaf ear to the pleas end cries emanating from Eastern Europe. Remember this: all the allies have suffered many losses, and if we also do not offer many human sacrifices, how can we gain the right to sit at the conference table when the territorial boundaries are reshaped? Accordingly, it is foolhardy and brazen for us to negotiate in terms of money or supplies in exchange for Jewish lives. How dare we ask of the allied powers to barter money for lives whilst they are sustaining heavy casualties daily? So, insofar as the masses are concerned: RAK B'DAM TIHJE LAKU HAAREZ, (Eretz Yisroel will be ours only by paying with blood), but as far as our immediate circle is concerned, ATEM TAJLU. The messenger bearing this letter will supply you with funds for this purpose."


After I accustomed myself to the peculiar writing, I trembled when I realized the import of RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ. But many weeks passed, and I was still confounded by the meaning of ATEM TAJLU. Until one day, it struck me. ATEM TAJIU meant "You escape", for the word "tiyul" (walking trip) was used by them as a euphemistic code for "escape". They meant to say - you fifteen or twenty "party members", escape from Czechoslovakia and save your hides. The price of Eretz Yisroel is the blood of the men and women, hoary sages, and babes in arms, - but not YOUR blood! Let us not spoil this plan by giving the Axis powers money to save Jewish lives. But for you, comrades, I have enclosed carfare for your escape. What a nightmare! The Zionist agent "diplomat" comes to Czechoslovakia and says 'Now is a very critical time. But comparatively speaking, it is not at all critical for you trapped Jews. For there is an emergency of far greater proportions; namely, BINYAN HA-ARETZ (the prize of Modinat Yisrael). Shed your blood cheerfully, for your blood is cheap. But for your blood, the Land (of Israel) will be ours!
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:58 pm

AD:

I am curious to see a single-paragraph reckoning of why it is that you're the #1 contributor of flagrantly racist imagery to the General Discussion forum. What makes that necessary?
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:57 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:58 pm wrote:AD:

I am curious to see a single-paragraph reckoning of why it is that you're the #1 contributor of flagrantly racist imagery to the General Discussion forum. What makes that necessary?


I suppose in any comparison, there has to be a #1, unless there is the unlikely event of a tie. someone has to occupy that spot.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with egregious imagery or ideation being presented in an adult arena, unless it is consistently not qualified eg by being pasted with no contextual remarks.

As to 'racism', this word seems so tired nowadays as to be almost usless, mainly due to it being so lazily and liberally(sic) applied over a long period of time,
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:00 pm

jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:57 pm wrote: As to 'racism', this word seems so tired nowadays as to be almost usless, mainly due to it being so lazily and liberally(sic) applied over a long period of time,


Wow, that's deep, thanks for contributing, man.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:21 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:00 pm wrote:
jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:57 pm wrote: As to 'racism', this word seems so tired nowadays as to be almost usless, mainly due to it being so lazily and liberally(sic) applied over a long period of time,


Wow, that's deep, thanks for contributing, man.


I don't usually aim for depth, but aptness. I'll leave depth for to scuba crowd.

Don't know about your part of the world, but in the UK a number of people are extremely weary of this particular expression and how it has come to be used as a bludgeon . What is really sad though is how meaning gets eroded, that's the real loss.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:24 pm

Well, in my neck of the woods, ain't nobody more "extremely weary of this particular expression" than racists.

And when it comes to describing racism, well, I find the adjective "racist" to be pretty apt.

I do raise a pint to the plight of your mates, though, that sounds like a real hard life out there. I find the coping mechanism of "Giving No Fucks" has been helpful to me when I get accused of being something I'm not.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:36 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:24 pm wrote:Well, in my neck of the woods, ain't nobody more "extremely weary of this particular expression" than racists.

And when it comes to describing racism, well, I find the adjective "racist" to be pretty apt.

I do raise a pint to the plight of your mates, though, that sounds like a real hard life out there. I find the coping mechanism of "Giving No Fucks" has been helpful to me when I get accused of being something I'm not.


Possibly it has not been massively overused in your part of the word then. I see it used to designate all sorts of undesired behaviours where race cannot even be discerned.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer 'racism' to apply to issues of race.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:43 pm

Just found this:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/denial/abc-clio/

Holocaust Denial, a Definition

by Andrew E. Mathis

This entry on Holocaust denial appears in Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia. Written by a member of The Holocaust History Project, it discusses the history of this conspiracy belief in Europe and America. We gratefully acknowledge ABC-CLIO for permission to reprint it here.

The Nazi Holocaust is one of the events of history that has received the greatest scrutiny. While historians disagree on different aspects of this phenomenon, it is basically agreed on that the Holocaust may be correctly defined as follows: (1) the Holocaust was the intentional murder of European Jews by the Nazi government of Germany during World War II as a matter of state policy; (2) this mass murder employed gas chambers, among other methods, as a method of killing; and (3) the death toll of European Jews by the end of World War II was roughly 6 million. Not surprisingly, with a group of historical events as laboriously studied as the Holocaust, conspiracy theories about this period abound. However, the most prominent U.S. conspiracy theory regarding the Holocaust is its denial.

Before discussing how Holocaust denial constitutes a conspiracy theory, and how the theory is distinctly American, it is important to understand what is meant by the term "Holocaust denial." Holocaust deniers, or "revisionists," as they call themselves, question all three major points of definition of the Nazi Holocaust. First, they contend that, while mass murders of Jews did occur (although they dispute both the intentionality of such murders as well as the supposed deservedness of these killings), there was no official Nazi policy to murder Jews. Second, and perhaps most prominently, they contend that there were no homicidal gas chambers, particularly at Auschwitz-Birkenau, where mainstream historians believe over 1 million Jews were murdered, primarily in gas chambers. And third, Holocaust deniers contend that the death toll of European Jews during World War II was well below 6 million. Deniers float numbers anywhere between 300,000 and 1.5 million, as a general rule.

While Holocaust denial began as a German and French conspiracy theory, its antecedents are both specifically American and an encapsulation of 2,000 years of European antisemitism. Addressing the latter point first, the conspiracy theory that Jews have manipulated non-Jews in many ways, shapes, and forms is nearly as old as Judaism itself. According to antisemites, Jews (not just the ruling Jewish elite of the first century, but all Jews) killed Jesus, poisoned wells, spread the Black Death, murdered Christian children to make Passover matzohs with their blood, and were the prime movers behind the Communist movement in Eastern Europe. If a single text encapsulates European antisemitism, it is the anonymous Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, the purported minutes of a meeting of leaders of international Jewry in which the destruction of non-Jewish culture is discussed. Originating in Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century, the Protocols were, in fact, an altered plagiarism of Maurice Joly's Dialogue aux Enfers entre Montesquieu et Machiavel (A Dialogue in Hell between Montesquieu and Machiavelli), written in the 1860s as an attack against Louis Napoleon III (Ridgeway, 5002).

Oddly, despite the present connections between some Holocaust deniers and violent extremists, it was via the anti-war movement of World War I that the seeds of Holocaust denial were planted in the United States. This process was twofold. First, the antisemitic U.S. industrialist Henry Ford brought the Protocols to the United States after a visit to Europe during World War I designed to promote a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Ford read them and became convinced that the "Jewish industrialists" were primarily responsible for the war. The introduction of this document to a nation where Ku Klux Klan membership was on the rise added antisemitism to the current nativist, racist, anti-Catholic sentiment. Ford published the Protocols in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent, over a seven-year period between the two world wars, giving legitimacy to a conspiracy of a Jewish cabal that sought to propagate war as a moneymaking operation.

At the same time, antiwar historians, notably Harry Elmer Barnes, began to suggest conspiratorial motivations on the part of the major powers at war. As historian Deborah Lipstadt has noted, Barnes and his colleagues were correct in many of their assumptions, for example, Germany was not solely at fault for the war (Serbia had, after all, fired the opening salvo); much anti-German propaganda spread during and after the war was, in fact, false; and there were war profiteers who made fortunes on the slaughter of the war (Lipstadt, (33-34)01). However, this did not change the essentially imperial nature of the war itself. Nevertheless, with the doubts of Barnes and his cohorts borne out through historical method, reports of German atrocities committed during World War II (this time true) would be treated with even greater skepticism. Barnes, who lived into the late 1960s, was among the first Americans to embrace Holocaust denial.

Aside from the obvious denial of Nazi atrocities by the perpetrators themselves, the Frenchman Paul Rassinier, a leftist who had been interned at Buchenwald and Dora, first promoted Holocaust denial most vociferously. (Rassinier's influence on the culture of Holocaust denial is still felt today, with his disciple Robert Faurisson leading the denial movement in France.) It did not take denial long to reach the United States, however. The first major Holocaust denier was Austin App, a Pennsylvania-based literary scholar. Beginning almost immediately after the war, App began a media campaign to expose what he believed were exaggerations in the Nazi treatment of Jews. While his own German ethnicity was likely a prime attraction for him to denial, App's own antisemitism and susceptibility to conspiracy theories informed much of his writing. For instance, App frequently used any combination of the terms "Talmudist," "Bolshevik," and "Zionist" in his writings as indicators that Jews were behind what he deemed a hoax that the Nazis had murdered 6 million Jews. In this way, he was able to imply that religious Jews, atheistic Communist Jews, and nationalist Jews were all conspiring together to spread belief in a mass murder against Jews. Furthermore, App blamed Jewish media control for the continued belief in this hoax (Lipstadt, 94-96)01, and this continues to be a theme in antisemitic and denial writings. If, as John Zimmerman and other observers have noted, the aim of Holocaust denial is to rehabilitate National Socialism, then it is fitting that App et al. would reiterate most of Hitler's own antisemitic themes in their writings (Zimmerman, 119)04.

The title of App's major work on the Holocaust, The Six Million Swindle, is informative because it implies on its very own the existence of a conspiracy of Jews to perpetrate a hoax against non-Jews for monetary gain. This monetary gain, specifically, would be reparations paid by West Germany for crimes committed against Jews during the war. What App and later deniers fail to address is a simple fact: reparations have been paid out since the 1950s based not on the number of deaths of Jews during World War II, but rather on the number of Jews who survived and whose costs of being settled elsewhere (primarily Israel) needed to be paid. Historian Michael Shermer has pointed out that, were the Holocaust truly a hoax designed by Zionists to gain cash for the fledgling state of Israel, then Zionists would have inflated the number of survivors and not the number of dead (Shermer and Grobman, 106)03.

Nevertheless, the Zionist angle of the conspiracy continued to be played by deniers and continues to this day. After App, U.S. Holocaust denial was carried on by Arthur Butz, a professor of electrical engineering at Northwestern University outside Chicago. In his 1976 book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, Butz reiterates the notion that the Holocaust is a consciously perpetrated falsification of history. While Butz is more subtle than App in blaming Jews for this hoax (he does not attack the Jewish religion in the manner of App, nor does he depict all Jews as Communists), he does target Zionists specifically as the hoaxsters, along with the governments of the Allies (particularly the Soviet Union), refugee and survivor organizations, and even the International Committee of the Red Cross (Lipstadt, 12601).

What Butz and other deniers fail to realize is the relative weakness of the Zionist movement before, during, and even after World War II. Zionism was considered heretical by most Jewish religious movements, and those Jews that did settle in Palestine before the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 were largely refugees with nowhere else to go, rather than political ideologues bent on creating a Jewish state in Palestine. Indeed, much recent research from Israel on the Holocaust has shown that some major figures in the Zionist movement cared very little about the dire situation of Jews in Europe during World War II. For instance, Menachem Begin, prime minister of Israel from 1977 to 1983, was jailed by Soviet authorities for Zionist activities until the Nazi invasion in 1941. However, rather than stay in Europe to fight the Nazis, Begin left for Palestine, where he waged guerrilla war for five years in the name of Zionism. Begin was not alone in his decision to fight for Zionism rather than the survival of European Jews.

Notably, the antisemitism of most deniers leads them to denounce Begin's choice while, at the same time, choosing to continue to believe that this fractious movement called Zionism could perpetrate a worldwide hoax. Nearly all major deniers, in fact, share a dual obsession with the Holocaust and with Zionism and the State of Israel. The chief purveyor of denier propaganda in the United States is the California-based Institute for Historical Review (IHR), which sells not only Holocaust denial books and pamphlets but also critiques of Zionism and religious Judaism. Willis Carto, head of the Liberty Lobby, an anti-Israel political action group based in Washington, D.C., founded the IHR. While there has been much internecine fighting over the last two decades at the IHR over money, Carto's views and those of the present directors (who include Mark Weber, a formerly overtly neo-Nazi propagandist) are not far from each other. In another twist, over the course of his battle with the current IHR leaders, Carto conspiratorially accused Weber of being a Zionist agent.

Weber also bangs the drum of equating Jews with the Bolshevik Revolution, a practice begun by App among U.S. deniers but going back to the revolution itself among observers in both Europe and the United States. While Weber is able to seize on certain truths about the Bolshevik Party that can tie it, at least on the surface, to Jews (such as that many prominent Bolshevik leaders, including Leon Trotsky, Lev Kamenev, and Grigori Zinoviev, were Jewish by birth), Zimmerman has pointed out that the average Russian Jew was more attracted to Jewish nationalist, Zionist, or democratic socialist parties (Zimmerman, 128) than to Communist radicals such as the Bolsheviks. Weber also repeats App's error of equating Zionism and communism. While there did exist Marxist-Zionist parties, particularly in the early days of the Israeli state, the backing of the Soviet Union for countries hostile to Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war was a coup de grâce for any alliance between two ideologies that are, by nature, diametrically opposed (Zionism is a form of nationalism, while communism is international in its aims).

It can thus be seen that Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory that seeks to place Jews behind an international movement to promote a falsehood for monetary gain. In this way, Holocaust denial is no different than many other previous forms of antisemitism, which imputed to Jews monetary greed as well as a conspiratorial air. Besides the haphazard manner in which deniers have chosen to lump all Jews together, regardless of religious or political orientation, as perpetrators of this "hoax," deniers also engage in efforts at pseudoscience to try to prove their point of view regarding the Holocaust. To date, none of their efforts has made any lasting impression on Holocaust historiography. While the rational observer will conclude that this is a testament to the truth of the history of the Holocaust, for the Holocaust deniers, it is merely one more piece of evidence of a conspiracy to quash what they believe to be the "real truth" about the fate of Jews during World War II.

References

Lipstadt, Deborah E., Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. New York: Plume.
Ridgeway, James. 1990. Blood in the Face. New York: Thunder's Mouth Press.
Shermer, Michael, and Alex Grobman. 2000. Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It? Berkeley: University of California Press.
Zimmerman, John C. 2000. Holocaust Denial: Demographics, Testimonies, and Ideologies. New York: University Press of America.


Citation note

The citation information for this article is: Mathis, Andrew E. 2003. "Holocaust, Denial of." Pp. 321-324 in Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia, edited by Peter Knight. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:58 pm

I would say that it is far easier to confront those who attempt to deny the NG (aka The Holcaust) if the issue of antisemitism is sidelined, it's a historical event and can be broached on that alone.

I am assuming that, as the title suggests, this thread is about confronting these people, and not developing side issues that make the issue even more complicated.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:03 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:58 pm wrote:AD:

I am curious to see a single-paragraph reckoning of why it is that you're the #1 contributor of flagrantly racist imagery to the General Discussion forum. What makes that necessary?


I don't know that I am but isn't this thread essentially about Racism? That is a core concern to me. I think that honestly depicting racist imagery in the process of (genuinely) critiquing it can be OK. Racism exists after all, and critical consciousness about its place in the conspiracy sphere is very, very important.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:29 pm

American Dream » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:03 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:58 pm wrote:AD:

I am curious to see a single-paragraph reckoning of why it is that you're the #1 contributor of flagrantly racist imagery to the General Discussion forum. What makes that necessary?


I don't know that I am but isn't this thread essentially about Racism? That is a core concern to me. I think that honestly depicting racist imagery in the process of (genuinely) critiquing it can be OK. Racism exists after all, and critical consciousness about its place in the conspiracy sphere is very, very important.


Looking at the OP of yours, which seemed to take you a while to amplify upon. It seems to be about confronting those who deny the occurence of a historical event. That seems a good platform to work from.

I would say it is more effective to challenge them on the historical record that speculate on their motives.
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