Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Nordic » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:46 pm

I have no idea why you continue to write the same shit ........ over and over and over again


Exactly.

The very first response in this thread was from you and you wrote:

yes it is and there will be a lot more very very bad things happening


Because Trump, right?

Everything that happens now in the world is about Trump.

I got a hangnail. Damn that Donald Trump!

But I know it's like talking to a wall. Any attempts of giving you feedback make you more determined to continue. You are 100% determined to be completely obsessed and miserable and monomaniacal for at least the next four years. Unless your dream comes true and he's ass-ass-inated.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:52 pm

QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH ...JUST STOP THIS SHIT

STOP LYING ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID...WHAT I HAVE POSTED


STOP THE LYING AND MAKING UP SHIT

STOP DERAILING EVERY FUCKING THREAD WITH YOUR MADE UP BULLSHIT

QUIT YOUR FUCKING HARASSMENT AND STALKING IT IS REALLY GETTING OLD

DERAILING OTHER MEMBERS THREADS WITH YOUR PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST ME IS BEYOND BELIEF

Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby nashvillebrook » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:20 pm

Nordic » 20 Dec 2016 12:11 wrote:To add: I just woke up, drinking my coffee, after a five day job of extreme difficulty, and saw with great pleasure there was a six-page thread on the assassination. Cool! Turns out it was 5.9 pages of bickering and bullshit.

I'm about to write a very angry YELP review about this place. You've been warned! :evil:


Had a similar experience yesterday with my afternoon coffee. but that doesn't reflect on SLAD or Trump. I think Trump's presidency is in play w/r/t the IC, and that should be fairly obvious (that the IC would take advantage of a power vacuum).

i was more dismayed at the miserable personal attacks upthread. moderation?
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:54 pm

Why do you assume Russia (or anyone else) wants to co operate with anyone to achieve peace?

We don't, why would they?

That was to a comment tapitsbo made last night...

Did Russia... ahem... interfere in the US election though?

Or did a DNC staffer get murdered for leaking their documents in which their weren't a staggering amount of revelations other than stuff people already knew on a gut level?

I doubt most Americans paid attention to the leaks, really.

We remember the leaks about Putin and his buddies' offshore accounts, right? You may not like it, but this is tit for tat... IF there's anything "Russian" about the election leaks after all, that is to say!

The insane absurd hypocrisy of people engaging in misguided, xenophobic Russia-baiting over the election is that "polite" people aren't supposed to talk about the staggeringly extensive and massively compromising and substantial Israeli and Saudi and UK influence in US politics, for example!

It's especially bizarre given and inappropriate that the establishment beef with Russia seems to largely go back to some petty grudges about guys like Khodorkovsky.

Anyways whatever your theories about which teams are better than whatever other teams, co-operation and peace in Europe/Asia/MENA is a way better goal that the "tension with Russia" that is synecdoche for the current state of affairs.

So the sort of argument you guys are making ends up sounding like a bunch of strung together anxious, arbitrary prejudices without a lot of basis, really.


You obviously mistake me for someone who gives a shit.

Why wouldn't Russia work to support Trump? Trump has Rex Tillerson as secretary of state.... (Although this may turn out to be a good thing. Tillerson recognises the reality of AGW and believes taxing Carbon Emissions is the best way to deal with it. Whether that is because he recognises reality or thinks it'll be easier to scam a Carbon tax I dunno, but its a good thing to have a US SoS that is on the record supporting a Carbon tax because it'll work the most effectivelty across multiple jurisdictions.)

Russia is far more powerful and has access to more resources than Israel or Saudi Arabia. Why wouldn't they be as involved? This website is replete with references to israeli and saudi influence in US domestic politics. But you are saying we shouldn't mention Russia.

1/ Are you a Russian spy?
2/ Why are you trying to interfere in our freedom of speech?

Its not Russian baiting to recognise reality. can you see this statement:

One fascist nation with pretensions of superpowerdom interferes in the elections or internal politics of another fascist nation with pretensions of superpowerdom.

You can't even tell from that if I'm talking about the US or Russia can you? Do you know why? Cos its deliberately ambiguous and could refer to either nation. If you really think only one of the US or Russia has done that you shouldn't be commenting here because this place is for adults. If i'd followed the US election I reckon there would have been plenty of opportunities to say "look that's probably Russia" in the same way that when certain things happen in Australian politics (like the fall from grace of Sam Dastiyari) I am saying "look that's probably the US interfering in our domestic politics".

When Jarvis Cocker sang that song about "cunts still running the world" he didn't have a line in there saying "oh except for Putin cos he is a nice man and when he kisses children on the belly there is nothing sexual about it at all."

I'm not American. I don't care about the US and Russia so long as they don't blow each other up and fuck up my life but if you really think Russia, a country renowned for hundreds of years for its ability to manipulate geo politics, suddenly doesn't do it any more you don't have the intellect to engage in a meaningful discussion.

Co operation and peace will not happen while people are competing so hard for control of energy and other resources.

I'd love it if the leaders of our world were intelligent, far sighted people who cared about the long term interests of the planet but they aren't. the systems that choose those leaders aren't set up to select for those traits.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:33 pm

tapitsbo » 20 Dec 2016 23:55 wrote:Imagine if Trump got shot or impeached and the old agenda in europe/mena came back full throttle, either from Ds or Rs.

the agenda of all the pundits who felt BHO had "kept them on a leash"

who were salivating for a Clinton win...

Things still wouldn't go so smoothly...



I suspect if we dose the worlds leaders heavily enough and regularly enough with BHO there might be an opportunity for a lasting peace on earth.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:36 pm

seemslikeadream » 21 Dec 2016 01:02 wrote:sorry to sound snippy but I am sure you are aware a couple members here have been spreading that lie also


Russian delegation in Ankara to probe envoy's murder
18-strong team investigating murder of Russian diplomat

home > Turkey, world, todays headlines 20.12.2016 Satuk Buğra Kutlugün Ankara
Russian delegation in Ankara to probe envoy's murder
A Russian delegation leave Forensic Medicine Institution in Ankara, Turkey on December 20, 2016. Russian investigation team had arrived in the capital Ankara. The team, comprising of a prosecutor and two defense attaches, will investigate the assassination of Karlov along with Turkish officials. (Emre Şenoğlu - Anadolu Agency)

By Satuk Bugra Kutlugun

ANKARA

An 18-strong Russian delegation arrived in Ankara on Tuesday afternoon to help investigate the murder of ambassador Andrey Karlov.

One Russian prosecutor, two defense attaches, security officials, autopsy experts and officials from the country’s Ministry of Emergency Situations have examined the crime scene where Karlov was gunned down.

Turkish officials cooperated with the Russian delegates.

Some Russian officials examined Karlov's remains and those of the gunman, Mevlut Mert Altintas, at the Institution of Forensic Medicine in the Turkish capital.

Andrey Karlov died after being shot multiple times at an art exhibition in Ankara on Monday evening.

Karlov was delivering a speech when the assailant, 22-year-old policeman Altintas, opened fire on him.

The envoy's autopsy has been completed and his remains have been sent to Ankara’s Esenboga International Airport for a state ceremony before repatriation to Russia.

Deputy Prime Minister Tugrul Turkes, Interior Minister Suleyman Soylu and Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag attended the airport ceremony.

Karlov's family will also fly to Moscow.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on Tuesday said Ankara’s Karyagdi Street, where the Russian embassy is located, will be renamed Karlov Street in memory of the slain diplomat.

Security has been tightened at Turkey's diplomatic missions in Russia following Monday’s shock assassination, according to the Russian Interior Ministry.

"Police stepped up security at Turkey’s diplomatic missions in the Russian Federation," ministry spokeswoman Irina Volk was quoted as saying by the official TASS news agency.

Volk said Turkey’s embassy in Moscow and consulates in Russian cities were now under "round-the-clock" protection.

Arrests

Six relatives and a roommate of the assassin were arrested by Turkish police early Tuesday; his uncle was released under judicial restrictions.

Hasan F., the uncle of slain assassin Mevlut Mert Altintas, is a former senior executive at a Fetullah Terrorist Organization (FETO)-linked private school shut down in an investigation following the July 15 defeated coup, which was blamed on the group.

Altintas’s parents, sister and two other relatives were arrested in the southwestern province of Aydin.

The relatives were taken to Aydin’s Security Directorate after questioning, said security sources on condition of anonymity.

His roommate in Ankara was also arrested.
http://aa.com.tr/en/todays-headlines/ru ... der/710636


Russians descend on Turkey after assassination of one of their own
John Bacon and Jane Onyanga-Omara , USA TODAY 9:19 a.m. EST December 20, 2016

The gunman who fatally shot the Russian ambassador to Turkey was trying to "drive a wedge" between the two countries and derail efforts toward a peaceful solution of the civil war in Syria, the Kremlin said Tuesday.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov spoke to reporters in Moscow as 18 investigators from Russia arrived in Turkey to investigate the fatal shooting of Andrei Karlov, who was shot multiple times by a Turkish police officer Monday while making a speech in Ankara. Gunman Mevlüt Mert Altıntaş, 22, shouted slogans related to the Syrian crisis before he was shot and killed by police.

Peskov said he expects the attack will bring Turkey and Russia closer together.

"Most likely the murder was aiming to derail the efforts toward a peaceful Syrian resolution," Peskov said. "However, it will not impede this process in any way."

Peskov said the investigators will determine whether the attack was the work of Altıntaş alone or a more complex conspiracy. Turkish authorities have detained seven people, and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Turkey and Russia will work together on the investigation.

The ambassador was attending the opening of an art exhibition in Ankara when he was shot. Video provided by Newsy Newslook

Cavusoglu said a street near the Russian Embassy will be renamed for Karlov.

"It is known how important the relations with Russia are for the region and not only for two countries," Cavusoglu said.

Altıntaş shouted slogans, mostly in Turkish, such as “Don’t forget Aleppo! Don’t forget Syria! As long as our brothers are not safe, you will not enjoy safety. ... Whoever has a share in this oppression will pay for it one-by-one. ... Only death will take me away from here..." witnesses said.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova described the attack as an "act of terrorism." Russian TV reported that Altıntaş had guarded the Russian embassy in Ankara earlier this month, when there were rallies at the building protesting Russian involvement in Syria and the situation in the city of Aleppo.

Gunman kills Russian ambassador to Turkey, shouts 'God is great'
Russia and Turkey have been key players in the almost 6-year-old civil war in Syria, with Russia supporting Syrian President Bashar Assad while Turkey supports some Western-backed rebel groups. Russia has provided support for Syrian troops that bombarded rebel-held areas of the northern city of Aleppo, creating a massive humanitarian crisis. Russia and Turkey countries have in recent days worked to allow rebels and civilians to evacuate rebel-held neighborhoods.

Cavusoglu, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif met in Moscow Tuesday to work on a peaceful solution in Syria. The ministers adopted a joint statement on coordinated actions aimed at reviving political process.

"It is our common view that there is no military solution to the Syrian crisis," Lavrov said at a joint press conference with Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu and Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /95644568/


So my take from that is the Russians organised the shooting to bring about a thaw in their relationship with Turkey.








(Or maybe not.)
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:08 pm

Rory » 21 Dec 2016 02:05 wrote:It's a pretty bad turn of affairs. I'd like to hope this is a random event, unsupported by state actors or conspirators. Well..

The #FakeNews site, Saker, has some interesting things to say. It stuck me because of how angry he (and other Russians) seem to be at their own embassy/foreign department side for allowing him to go without apparent bodyguards or vetted security detail.

http://thesaker.is/a-few-initial-short- ... to-ankara/
What this means is one of two things:

Version 1: there was nobody in charge of security at this exhibition

Version 2: the room where this murder happened was considered ‘safe/sterile’ because it was inside an outer security perimeter which we don’t see in this video.

I find version 2 far more likely. That would also explain why and how Mevlut Mert Aydintas so easily got it: he simply flashed his police ID and was let through.

When such an event occurs it is also important to ask cui bono – whom does it benefit?


Finally, let’s remember the disastrous consequences for Turkey following the shooting down of the Russian SU-24 and the fact that, by numerous corroborated accounts, the Russian intelligences services saved Erdogan, probably literally, by warning him of the coup against him.
...
Here I really hope that I am wrong, but if I want to be honest I have to admit that I am completely unable to find an excuse of the lax security around Ambassador Andrey Karlov. And I am not referring to the Turks here, I am referring to the Russian security services. Here is why.

Even if we assume that the Turks had told the Russians that they had established a ‘safe/sterile’ perimeter around the exhibit and that the general public would not be let in, the footage shows what appears to be only a few guests, there is no excuse for the Russian not to have at least one bodyguard in the immediate proximity to the Ambassador. Turkey is not only a country at war, but Russia is a party to that war, the Takfiris have made a very long list of threats against Russia and, finally, Turkey is a country which has suffered from terrorism for years and which has just suffered a bloody attempted coup. In a country like that a top official like an Ambassador should have been protected by an entire group of bodyguards, but in this case there was clearly nobody. Oh sure, the Russian can blame the Turks for having set up a crappy perimeter, but as professionals they should know that the Turks are already having extreme difficulties in dealing with their own terrorists and that following the massive purges the security services are in a state of chaos. Would one bodyguard have made a difference?

Yes, possibly. Probably in fact.


From the video it appears that Mevlut Mert Aydintas was standing about 5 meter behind Ambassador Karlov when he opened fire. Apparently, not a single of the shots hit the Ambassador’s head. If Ambassador Karlov had been wearing a flack jacket or any other type of body armor he would have probably survived that first volley of bullets (unless one hit the cervicals). One single bodyguard could then have easily killed Mevlut Mert Aydintas and evacuated the ambassador to safety. Evidently Karlov was not wearing any kind of body armor that day. Why? He did not have a single bodyguard next to him. Why? No Russian voices are heard on the video, so there appears to have been no Russian security anywhere near the ambassador. Why?

Normally, ambassadors are a very easy target. Everybody knows them, their routine is public and, contrary to what many seem to think, most of them have no security detail. I am absolutely amazed that more ambassadors are not killed regularly. In high risk countries, however, ambassadors are normally protected, especially ambassadors representing countries involved in a war or who are likely targets of terrorist attacks. True, as a rule, the Russians, including diplomats, tend to be more brave/reckless (pick the term) than their western counterparts: they don’t scare easy and they like to show that they are not afraid. But that kind of attitude needs to be kept in check by professionals.

Frankly, it makes me angry to see how many Russians have been killed by that lax attitude towards personal risk and security. Yes, it is very noble to be courageous, but to die killed by a manic is also plain dumb. I would feel much better if Russian officials and politicians would be a little less courageous and a little more careful. Because what happened today begs the question: who will it be the next time?

Conclusions

What happened today is a tragedy made twice as painful by the fact that it could probably have been avoided. The Turkish security services will probably arrest overnight pretty much anybody and everybody Mevlut Mert Aydintas has ever met, and they will get lots of confessions. I am pretty sure that they will share a lot of that data with the Russians, if only to show how sorry they are. Alas, both the Turks and the Russians have an long tradition of secrecy and we might never find out who, if anybody, really was behind Mevlut Mert Aydintas.

The only thing I am sure of is that Putin will do nothing harsh regardless of who is behind this murder. If it is the Takfiris, then the people involved will die in the next couple of years. If the CIA is involved, however, the Russians will be much more careful and might chose to act in a very different way, possibly through the next Administration. The murder of Ambassador Karlov will not succeed in derailing the Russian and Iranian efforts at getting some kind of a regional solution to the war in Syria, nor will it change the Russian determination to prevent the AngloZionst Empire of turning Syrian into yet another Takfiristan.

As for Russia and Turkey, as long as Erdogan remains in power they will continue to try to collaborate against the odds and in spite of deep and fundamental differences. Neither Russia nor Turkey, which have fought each other in twelve wars, have any other option.


With that said, the assassino, if he was paid, I'm not sure considered the likely, full implications of the russian response. Might take a few years to do it all but I'd expect everyone in his family to be at risk of being killed. I mean, Erdogan might just do it all himself just to placate the surely angry and disturbed russians



The only other question I have is in the angry arab post AD made with the photo of the Iranian ambassador - was he in the loop and expecting something or just alert to the possibility given how slack the security seemed?
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:13 pm

That post Rory made just kind of reinforces what I'm thinking. I'd love to have the sort of access to Russian and eastern Eurpoean stuff that we have to English language stuff. Just to get a bit of a picture of who the Russian ambassador to turkey was. Was he expendable? Because the last thing Turkey would have wanted was the assassination of the Russian Ambassador.

Of course it could have just been the seppos and the west that teed it all up. That would fit with general lack of subtlety and competence.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby freemason9 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:19 pm

The USSR tried to maintain peaceful relationships with the west after the end of WWII, but the U.S. and the U.K. would have nothing of it. The "light fascism" of the capitalist nations was consumed with the idea of preventing socialist movements from succeeding in the world, and they committed to it for the next five decades. The fascists of the U.S. controlled the media and the police, and they used that control to demonize socialists, communists, and anything else that resembled a labor union. The U.S. government has sucked for years and committed countless atrocities in the name of "freedom." There is much blood on the hands of the United States government, and it has stained its citizenry.

In my mind, the election of Trump is merely the ripening of the nation's karma. He isn't the cause of our great and final demise . . . he is simply one aspect of it.

Also, what does a guy have to do to change his user name in this joint?
The real issue is that there is extremely low likelihood that the speculations of the untrained, on a topic almost pathologically riddled by dynamic considerations and feedback effects, will offer anything new.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:14 am

freemason9 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:19 pm wrote:The USSR tried to maintain peaceful relationships with the west after the end of WWII, but the U.S. and the U.K. would have nothing of it. The "light fascism" of the capitalist nations was consumed with the idea of preventing socialist movements from succeeding in the world, and they committed to it for the next five decades. The fascists of the U.S. controlled the media and the police, and they used that control to demonize socialists, communists, and anything else that resembled a labor union. The U.S. government has sucked for years and committed countless atrocities in the name of "freedom." There is much blood on the hands of the United States government, and it has stained its citizenry.

In my mind, the election of Trump is merely the ripening of the nation's karma. He isn't the cause of our great and final demise . . . he is simply one aspect of it.

Also, what does a guy have to do to change his user name in this joint?


Why don't you enroll a new account with another user name?

You could tell others your old / current user name (or put in sig line or in profile of new account) or not.

The assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey is eerie in the video tape and in the actual act.

There are multiple sides within Turkey and also influencing Turkey from outside.

No doubt some fractions in the USA back Gulen or would use the Gulen movement aa cover, makes little difference.

Russia taking charge in Syria has changed the game in the Middle East.

Hard not to conclude that there is a tug of war between the USA and Russia on some ultimate level.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby tapitsbo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:07 am

Joe Hillshoist » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:54 pm wrote:Why do you assume Russia (or anyone else) wants to co operate with anyone to achieve peace?

We don't, why would they?

That was to a comment tapitsbo made last night...

Did Russia... ahem... interfere in the US election though?

Or did a DNC staffer get murdered for leaking their documents in which their weren't a staggering amount of revelations other than stuff people already knew on a gut level?

I doubt most Americans paid attention to the leaks, really.

We remember the leaks about Putin and his buddies' offshore accounts, right? You may not like it, but this is tit for tat... IF there's anything "Russian" about the election leaks after all, that is to say!

The insane absurd hypocrisy of people engaging in misguided, xenophobic Russia-baiting over the election is that "polite" people aren't supposed to talk about the staggeringly extensive and massively compromising and substantial Israeli and Saudi and UK influence in US politics, for example!

It's especially bizarre given and inappropriate that the establishment beef with Russia seems to largely go back to some petty grudges about guys like Khodorkovsky.

Anyways whatever your theories about which teams are better than whatever other teams, co-operation and peace in Europe/Asia/MENA is a way better goal that the "tension with Russia" that is synecdoche for the current state of affairs.

So the sort of argument you guys are making ends up sounding like a bunch of strung together anxious, arbitrary prejudices without a lot of basis, really.


You obviously mistake me for someone who gives a shit.

Why wouldn't Russia work to support Trump? Trump has Rex Tillerson as secretary of state.... (Although this may turn out to be a good thing. Tillerson recognises the reality of AGW and believes taxing Carbon Emissions is the best way to deal with it. Whether that is because he recognises reality or thinks it'll be easier to scam a Carbon tax I dunno, but its a good thing to have a US SoS that is on the record supporting a Carbon tax because it'll work the most effectivelty across multiple jurisdictions.)

Russia is far more powerful and has access to more resources than Israel or Saudi Arabia. Why wouldn't they be as involved? This website is replete with references to israeli and saudi influence in US domestic politics. But you are saying we shouldn't mention Russia.

1/ Are you a Russian spy?
2/ Why are you trying to interfere in our freedom of speech?

Its not Russian baiting to recognise reality. can you see this statement:

One fascist nation with pretensions of superpowerdom interferes in the elections or internal politics of another fascist nation with pretensions of superpowerdom.

You can't even tell from that if I'm talking about the US or Russia can you? Do you know why? Cos its deliberately ambiguous and could refer to either nation. If you really think only one of the US or Russia has done that you shouldn't be commenting here because this place is for adults. If i'd followed the US election I reckon there would have been plenty of opportunities to say "look that's probably Russia" in the same way that when certain things happen in Australian politics (like the fall from grace of Sam Dastiyari) I am saying "look that's probably the US interfering in our domestic politics".

When Jarvis Cocker sang that song about "cunts still running the world" he didn't have a line in there saying "oh except for Putin cos he is a nice man and when he kisses children on the belly there is nothing sexual about it at all."

I'm not American. I don't care about the US and Russia so long as they don't blow each other up and fuck up my life but if you really think Russia, a country renowned for hundreds of years for its ability to manipulate geo politics, suddenly doesn't do it any more you don't have the intellect to engage in a meaningful discussion.

Co operation and peace will not happen while people are competing so hard for control of energy and other resources.

I'd love it if the leaders of our world were intelligent, far sighted people who cared about the long term interests of the planet but they aren't. the systems that choose those leaders aren't set up to select for those traits.


Exactly, if the interference goes in multiple directions so why give a shit about it?

And if the interference is undocumented what can really be said about it? Nobody knows what transnational actors are setting the agenda behind the scenes, it's the policies that are at issue. Of course there could be more than meets the eye going on the scenes with the Ankara assassination. The good thing is it didn't derail reconciliation.

There isn't a undifferentiated flux of conflict, there are important differences from one event to the next, from one government to the next.

I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about Russia, I'm saying the propaganda push is to ONLY talk about Russia.

Different leaders have pursued different policies of escalation and de-escalation. The pattern of endlessly sabotaged negotiations and lies in conflicts like syria should be obvious... not every party's behaviour is equivalent.

The fixation on personalities of leaders aside the important thing is there are still negotiations over the wars haven't stopped.

where you see FASCIST FASCIST FASCIST (in which case why give a shit?) others see policies with important differences.

hoping superpowers "don't blow each other up" doesn't help when other places are being blown up with an endgame of open-ended destruction.

Countries like israel and saudi funded clinton's campaign while lobbying for wars of aggression. Somehow this is barely controversial. Canadian support for the genocidal Saudi campaign in Yemen is barely a controversy here.

Yet the prospect of co-operation and peace between the US and Russia is somehow supposed to be a horrible, world ending travesty? Get real

Likewise if you're unhappy with the devastation of the MENA and islamic world why would something like cooperation between turkey and iran be a bad thing? Not literally you joe but crappy msm propaganda is basically saying as much.
Last edited by tapitsbo on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:26 am

How is the Telegraph as a source? Evidently there have been shots fired near the US ebassy as well but nothing in the text of this article, only in url.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... mbassador/

Turkey claims followers of US-exiled cleric killed Russian ambassador

Roland Oliphant
20 December 2016 • 3:14pm

Turkey blamed the murder of Russia's ambassador to the country on a US-based a cleric on Tuesday, as both Ankara and Moscow vowed the killing would not undermine a fragile alliance between them.  

Turkey's foreign minister on Tuesday told John Kerry, the U.S. Secretary of State, that Ankara and Moscow believe followers of Fethullah Gulen were behind the killing of Andrei Karlov on Monday.  

"Turkey and Russia know that behind the attack... there is FETO," Mevlut Cavusoglu told Mr Kerry, referring to Turkey's acronym for Mr Gulen's organisation, the state-run Anadolu news agency said.

The Turkish government has previously accused Mr Gulen, a critic of president Recep Tayyip Erdogan, of orchestrating the failed military coup that rocked the country in July. Mr Gulen denies the accusation. 

Earlier officials in Moscow and Ankara blamed the attack on “terrorists” seeking to sabotage bilateral relations and damage efforts to make peace in Syria.
"It benefits those who want to drive a wedge between Russia and Turkey" and undermine joint efforts to find a settlement in Syria, Dmitry Peskov, Vladimir Putin’s spokesman said.  

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish president, said in a speech in Istanbul that he and Mr Putin agreed in a telephone call after the murder that "our expanding areas of cooperation with Russia, particularly on Syria, will not be hampered by this attack".

Russia and Turkey have clashed repeatedly over the war in Syria, where they support opposing sides, but in recent weeks they have worked closely on arranging evacuations from rebel-held eastern Aleppo.

Andrey Karlov, 62, was shot in the back at least eight times as he delivered a speech at the opening of an exhibition sponsored by the Russian embassy on Monday evening.
His attacker, a 22-year old policeman called Melvut Mert Altintas, shouted “Allahu Akbar” and “remember Aleppo” as he opened fire.

Altintas was shot dead by police fifteen minutes later.

No group has claimed responsibility for Karlov’s murder. However, some Turkish officials and pro-government media have laid the blame on Mr Gulen, an anti-Erdogan cleric based in the United States.  

Melih Gokcek, the mayor of Ankara, speculated on Twitter that the gunman may be linked to a group led by Fethullah Gulen, who Mr Erdogan accused of orchestrating a failed military coup in July.

Mr Erdogan said: “We have started to work out the links," but did not elaborate. Mr Gulen, who denies involvement in the July coup attempt, issued a statement condemning the killing as a “heinous crime.”

Experts cast doubt on the link to Mr Gulen, saying it was more likely the gunman was acting out of anger at Russia's involvement in the war in Syria.  

The killing comes at a time of deep anger among religious and socially conservative grassroots supporters of Mr Erdogan’s Law and Justice Party over the unfolding humanitarian catastrophe in Syria.

While the government has largely refrained from criticising Moscow's actions in Aleppo, protesters had gathered on a near daily basis outside Russian diplomatic missions in Istanbul and Ankara in the week preceding the attack.

Eighteen officials from Russia’s foreign ministry and intelligence agencies landed in Ankara early on Tuesday morning after Mr Putin and Mr Erdogan agreed on a joint investigation into the murder.

The Russians joined a Turkish police team who have so far detained seven people in connection with the killing.

Suspects currently in custody include Altintas’ parents, sister and three other relatives from his home town in Aydir province.

In Ankara, police arrested the policeman’s flatmate.

Further details emerged about the murder on Tuesday, including that the killer used his police ID to bypass metal detectors at the entrance to gallery where the killing took place, it has been reported.

Altintas was challenged by security guards at Ankara’s Contemporary Arts Centre when he refused to pass through the metal detector but was waved through after he produced his police identity card, Hurriyet reported.

Karlov’s body was flown back to Russia with ceremonial honours on Tuesday. His wife Marina, who held two red carnations, wept as her husband's flag-draped coffin was carried by a Turkish honour guard to a Russian aircraft at Ankara airport on Tuesday afternoon.

Tugrul Turkes, a deputy prime minister of Turkey, said at the ceremony that Karlov had "become the eternal symbol of Turkish-Russian friendship."
Turkish authorities separately promised to rename the road where the Russian embassy is in Ankara “Karlov street."
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:26 am

oops double post.

How did that happen? lol
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:31 am

tapitsbo » 21 Dec 2016 16:07 wrote:
Exactly, if the interference goes in multiple directions so why give a shit about it?

And if the interference is undocumented what can really be said about it? Nobody knows what transnational actors are setting the agenda behind the scenes, it's the policies that are at issue. Of course there could be more than meets the eye going on the scenes with the Ankara assassination. The good thing is it didn't derail reconciliation.


I do agree with that.

There isn't a undifferentiated flux of conflict, there are important differences from one event to the next, from one government to the next.

I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about Russia, I'm saying the propaganda push is to ONLY talk about Russia.

Different leaders have pursued different policies of escalation and de-escalation. The pattern of endlessly sabotaged negotiations and lies in conflicts like syria should be obvious... not every party's behaviour is equivalent.

The fixation on personalities of leaders aside the important thing is there are still negotiations over the wars haven't stopped.


Ok the impression I get here at the moment is that talking about Russia as if they actually interfered in the last us election is on par with suggesting the official story is kosher re 9/11.

I'm gonna post this now cos there is an electrical storm then try with the rest of your comment.
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Re: Russian ambassador to Turkey shot and killed

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:09 am

where you see FASCIST FASCIST FASCIST (in which case why give a shit?) others see policies with important differences.


What are those important differences in your opinion?

Seriously.

hoping superpowers "don't blow each other up" doesn't help when other places are being blown up with an endgame of open-ended destruction.

Countries like israel and saudi funded clinton's campaign while lobbying for wars of aggression. Somehow this is barely controversial.


Yes there is a bloc made up of US/UK and Saudi Arabia (and other Gulf States). Israel may be part of it depending on how you look at it. their interests and the US/K and Saudi blocs coincide at the moment. Personally I think Israel is a effectively US colony masquerading as independent state, whether Israel realises or not. But they will turn to Russia if the US abandons them. Obviously they and the saudis will lobby extensively to influence US elections. Everyone (most of the US population) knows this don't they? IMO they are happy with that state of affairs and openly support it.

So what are you gonna do about the other places being "blown up"?

Canadian support for the genocidal Saudi campaign in Yemen is barely a controversy here.


But Justin is such a lovely guy. He could never do anything wrong.


Back to:

So what are you gonna do about the other places being "blown up"?

or

More reasonably - why do you think Putin is engaging with Turkey? Clearly he wants to destabilise the EU, Nato and US Relations in the ME and in the process possibly Israel (tho probably not. Lots of Russian ex pats in Israel now.) On the face of it that isn't necessarily a bad thing for people in the ME. But he isn't doing it for the well being of the people of the ME. He is trying to rebuild Eurasia - the former USSR - tho not necessarily as a communist enitiy, more an energy based capitalist one. (Sound familiar - a superpower built on controlling the energy trade?) Most of that energy comes from fossil fuel.

Ultimately he will expect certain things from the people of the middle east and will take them regardless. Look at his career - has anything he has done given you the impression he won't?

Yet the prospect of co-operation and peace between the US and Russia is somehow supposed to be a horrible, world ending travesty? Get real


That depends. I don't really see the prospect of peace between "the US" and Russia because the USA/Israel/Saudi axis is in direct competition with Russia for the energy market in Europe. That is what is driving this conflict. There will be no peace in the middle east imo.

There will be more conflict and it will disrupt traditional (late 20th century) western oil trading as Russia tries to increase its market share of the worlds energy markets.

Likewise if you're unhappy with the devastation of the MENA and islamic world why would something like cooperation between turkey and iran be a bad thing? Not literally you joe but crappy msm propaganda is basically saying as much.


Real co operation between the MENA would involve them being independent in their ability to market their energy resources. Most of 20th century history involves Europeans or people of European descent in North America trying to prevent that. I see Russia's involvement as more of the same. Tho if Turkey and Iran play their cards right they may be able to cut Russia out and generate a bit of independent energy supply to China.

Which wouldn't be a bad thing, (and might drop gas prices in Australia as a bonus.)
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