For those interested in Cassiopaea, Laura K-J

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi Lunarose, all... You wrote:

Thank you for sharing your story. Theories and citations are great, but there is something compelling about a person's first hand experience. It offers the opportunity to dig in further at the source with any questions, instead of having to leave things hanging. Maybe more posters will follow your example!

Aw shucks! (blushing) You're sweet!

There are only a very few things that have happened in my life that seem to be worth sharing, at one time or another. I'm glad this is one of those things. Plus, my own intellectual rigor ain't what it used to be, so personal experience is about all I got left!

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi Doodad, all-- You said:

Groups like these take advantage of what seems to be the vacuum that exists when people have a spiritual crisis; we seemed hard wired for the spiritual even if it takes the form of atheism or scientific rigor. The way I avoid it as much as I can is to not trust anyone who suggests they have a truth to share. At least the cult of "me," can be forgiven and worked on. Naturally it is not a popular stance among true believers of any sort.

You point about atheism or scientific rigor being equivalent to spiritual beliefs is well taken. You're right--it's not that I was experiencing a spiritual crisis, per se, at the time. I've always been a student, of just about anything, and I've always wanted to know the truth, even if I doubt it exists! I know, weird.

The thing about Laura, though, is not that she ever said she had the truth. In fact, she'd go to great lengths to say that we should all do our own research and make up our own minds.

That, her personality, and her prolific brilliance are exactly the things that made her and the group so compelling. It was like an anti-cult cult, maybe!

This is why I think it's so dangerous for some RI folks to get too heavily involved. It's like, "Wow! This is sooo cool! And look, they keep telling me that they're not claiming to have all the answers! And they're giving this information away, when so many charlatans are charging for it!"

It's very seductive to a person with a rigorously intuitive mind. Just don't forget to use that rigorous intuition on *yourself*, and *often.*

So, sure, read, but break it up with other sites, you know? Keep getting lots of other viewpoints. Take a break for a reality check now and again, to be trite.

I'll try to find the cult info that I'm talking about... it was sort of 7 or 8 characteristics of cults and dang if the stuff that went on wasn't very similar.

Edited to add quote formatting (again! dang!)

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi all: After poking around a bit, I believe the list of cult characteristics I read that woke me up was this one, now found in wikipedia. I don't remember at all where it came from originally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist

Steve Eichel

In his "Building Resistance to Manipulation", the psychologist Steve K.D. Eichel created a checklist of signs of a sect designed to brainwash its members into loyal followers:

* Isolate them in new surroundings apart from old friends or reference-points;
* Provide them with instant acceptance from a seemingly loving group;
* Keep them away from competing or critical ideas;
* Provide an authority figure that everyone seems to acknowledge as having some special skill or awareness;
* Provide a philosophy that seems logical and appears to answer all or the most important questions in life;
* Structure all or most activities so that there is little time for privacy or independent action or thought, provide a sense of "us" versus "them";
* Promise instant or imminent solutions to deep or long-term problems;
* Employ covert or disguised hypnotic techniques.

I want to emphasize that it seemed as if the group *functioned* this way, especially during the "conference." It also seemed to me at the time that the group was *headed* this direction, if it wasn't already there.

And again, I'm not saying it was (or is) a cult--just that if you choose to go swimming in that pool, be sure you're not a frog in a pan of slowly coming-to-boil water. That's how it was, with me--slowly, over time, without me realizing it was happening.

[theeKultleeder]

The Cassiopeia stuff is very seductive. I found the web site around the same time i found this one. There was something about it - I didn't "bite" and lost interest in it fairly quickly.

Part of the trick in these types of leaders is in their prolificness. So many words and concepts covering almost anything one could think about makes it hard to ever get out of that thought-box.

And don't you know, "make up your own mind" was one of the demon Hubbard's favorite lines for his followers, and then, of course, came the in-group behaviors, the separation (disconnection) with friends and family, and the feelings of superiority and specialness the higher you get up in the pecking order, the closer you get to the "leader."

It doesn't matter if LKJ stated out to form a cult; by your description one formed around her. Indiepop pointed out that cults are "within," and obviously the people around LKJ were willing and perhaps desiring to engage in the behavior of "followers." I'm glad you decided not to play that game.

I'm afraid that 'mind-control survivor' is becoming something of a professional title in our weird parapolitical world. I'm now very wary of any of those claims (sorry - I don't mean "you" anyone reading this getting upset).

Can cults form online? It depends on how you define cults, really, but yes. Discordianism started out with people mailing each other stuff. ECK is mainly through the mail, some "Rosicrucian" clubs send "occult instruction" through the mail. Many cults are benign; some are dangerous.

Buyer Beware

[populistindependent]

Thank you for sharing your story. Theories and citations are great, but there is something compelling about a person's first hand experience. It offers the opportunity to dig in further at the source with any questions, instead of having to leave things hanging. Maybe more posters will follow your example!

What you say here is so valuable.

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi PI, all-- You wrote:

The pressure to form cults comes from below as much as it comes from above. Many leaders don't even want a cult following and have to fight against it. I know from my performing days that there were - unsolicited and discouraged by me - starry-eyed people sitting cross legged on the floor at the edge of the stage immersing themselves in something or the other with these expectant and glazed looks on their faces. They presumed some sort of intimacy with the people in the band, as though there were some shared inside knowledge, and often violated the boundaries trying to make contact with us or hunt us down.

I was not any sort of big celebrity and yet this happened.

This is kind of funny, in a rueful way. I, too, am a performer, although very far from an accomplished one. Normally, I play drums, but at one point, I was in a band and I wrote a few songs, so when we played out, I'd come up to the front of the stage, grab my crappy, no-name, broke-ass, couldn't-stay-in-tune guitar, and croak out my discordant lyrics about getting old (called "The Love Song of Jane Prufrock"--I couldn't even come up with my own ideas!), shopping for shoes, Courtney Love, and Chimayo, New Mexico (four of the ones I played most often). I was really, really bad. Not being falsely humble--I was actually awful. My bandmates were awfully sweet to indulge me, I can say that much.

Yet, after one show, a young woman approached me and said (literally), "Can I touch the hem of your garment? You were so great! I loved your songs!" I was flattered and flustered to say the least. She hung around, peppering me with questions, introducing me to her boyfriend (who look mortified), and sort of just *hovering* in a disconcerting way.

Not only was I not famous, I wasn't even *good* and yet I had a follower. So I can't even imagine what it must have been like for you, most likely a talented musician, much less for an actual celebrity....

I can't even imagine what it must be like for more famous people. I can tell you that for me it was a big pain in the ass - the cult-like followers gave me the creeps.

Oh, okay. I guess I can *imagine* it, then! BTW, The Flight of the Conchords, an HBO series that recently wrapped up its first series, has a *great* obsessed fan character.

But that does tell us that there is a huge army of people out there ready and eager to go into some sort of trance-like state and follow someone mindlessly, desperate to belong to something, to believe in something, to totally immerse themselves in something.

Yeah, but, see, here's the thing: I definitely wasn't in that army. I was always so contemptuous of that kind of behavior, of mindless following. That's why it seems like I should say... if it could happen to me, it could happen to you (not you in particular, PI--just anyone among us).

[bks]

Fat Lady Singing wrote:

It's interesting, is it not, that the people who are interested in parapolitics and the paranormal have come together so much online, where it becomes *very* difficult to determine intent and it's so *very* easy to be anonymous to most readers... this very medium may be obscuring the message, and perhaps that's quite intentional.

I also find this interesting, because I see no affinity between parapolitics and the paranormal except for the occult aspect (occult as in hidden). Parapolitics does not require a belief in the paranormal, and vice versa. Parapolitical narratives locate responsibility with earthly actors and systems.

Perhaps I'm working with an impoverished concept of the paranormal. I'd love to hear thoughts from those who see it differently, because I've puzzled over this.

I suppose I COULD start another thread . . .

[Doodad]

Fat Lady Singing wrote:

It's interesting, is it not, that the people who are interested in parapolitics and the paranormal have come together so much online, where it becomes *very* difficult to determine intent and it's so *very* easy to be anonymous to most readers... this very medium may be obscuring the message, and perhaps that's quite intentional.

I also find this interesting, because I see no affinity between parapolitics and the paranormal except for the occult aspect (occult as in hidden). Parapolitics does not require a belief in the paranormal, and vice versa. Parapolitical narratives locate responsibility with earthly actors and systems.

Perhaps I'm working with an impoverished concept of the paranormal. I'd love to hear thoughts from those who see it differently, because I've puzzled over this.

I suppose I COULD start another thread . . .

Actually I would love another thread because I think it's a very topical item for discussion. I can see the affinity even if I seem to be the worst skeptic in town to some but I do get what you are saying as well. I would welcome such a thread.

[populistindependent]

Yeah, but, see, here's the thing: I definitely wasn't in that army. I was always so contemptuous of that kind of behavior, of mindless following. That's why it seems like I should say... if it could happen to me, it could happen to you (not you in particular, PI--just anyone among us).

Oh, yeah. I agree.

[Avalon]

Fat Lady Singing, what was your take on the Cassiopaean entity/ies?

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi Avalon, all--You wrote:

Fat Lady Singing, what was your take on the Cassiopaean entity/ies?

Thanks for asking! My position was this: I didn't care if they were aliens, time travelers, or just Laura's subconscious. Or even her conscious, and this was the way she chose to express herself.

I didn't care much one way or another because I figured if there was wisdom there to be had, what did it matter where it came from? Wisdom is wisdom, I feel. If I were a Catholic, you'd call me a "menu Catholic." I take what I like and ignore the rest.

Hm, my attitude could present some ethical difficulties. I'm thinking of how modern medicine has "benefited" from Nazi human experimentation, for instance. Is it right to have gained (medical) wisdom from that source? I know, not really on topic, but hey, it's my thread and I'll stray if I want to.

But back to the topic: It seemed to me that a lot of the group members took it more literally than I did. Not all, but a large number. While some group members seemed to skirt the whole topic entirely, you'd get others who would quote from the transcripts as if they were the Bible or Nostradamus quatrains or something.

[philipacentaur]

I just want to say that this is a great thread. Thanks for making it.

[LilyPatToo]

Fat Lady Singing said:

My position was this: I didn't care if they were aliens, time travelers, or just Laura's subconscious. Or even her conscious, and this was the way she chose to express herself.

I didn't care much one way or another because I figured if there was wisdom there to be had, what did it matter where it came from? Wisdom is wisdom, I feel. If I were a Catholic, you'd call me a "menu Catholic." I take what I like and ignore the rest.

That was my position too, before I learned of the existence of decades old technology and hypnosis methods that could place a voice inside a human mind. As I said in the Xymphora thread, "After learning about the way that some prominent channelers have been played by the mind control boys, I avoided the Cassiopaeans' material. Laura Knight-Jadczyk is very intelligent, but then so was Helen Schucman (A Course in Miracles), who was "played" like a violin by William Thetford (MKULTRA/CIA). I'd want to know a lot more about all the people involved in the Cass material before I'd swallow it whole."

That said, I'm reasonably certain that in 99% of all channeling experiences there is absolutely no psy-ops involvement and the psychic is not being played by anyone with an agenda. But now that I know about Schucman and Thetford, I have to be very rigorous in looking for possible ulterior motives when I encounter channelled info online.

LilyPat

[Fat Lady Singing]

Hi LilyPatToo, all: You wrote:

That was my position too, before I learned of the existence of decades old technology and hypnosis methods that could place a voice inside a human mind. As I said in the Xymphora thread, "After learning about the way that some prominent channelers have been played by the mind control boys, I avoided the Cassiopaeans' material. Laura Knight-Jadczyk is very intelligent, but then so was Helen Schucman (A Course in Miracles), who was "played" like a violin by William Thetford (MKULTRA/CIA). I'd want to know a lot more about all the people involved in the Cass material before I'd swallow it whole."

That said, I'm reasonably certain that in 99% of all channeling experiences there is absolutely no psy-ops involvement and the psychic is not being played by anyone with an agenda. But now that I know about Schucman and Thetford, I have to be very rigorous in looking for possible ulterior motives when I encounter channelled info online.

I saw your post on that thread, too--you're very wise and thanks for passing along this information. I'd read a little about A Course in Miracles years ago, and read some passages from it, and thought, hey, this lady sounds all right! Do you remember where you learned about William Thetford? That's not a name I'm familiar with.

Of course, at RI, we've seen how operatives mess with "outsider" movements... but I don't know about this particular case. Whether Laura was a part of that, who knows. But, as she doesn't hear voices in her head, but rather uses a Ouija board (or did), I doubt that the particular technique you mention, above, was used. There were always witnesses, because someone had to take down the letters as they were being spelled out. In the transcripts, it sounds like a lot of times there are four or five people in the room.

[LilyPatToo]

Re: Thetford's influence on the Course is detailed here--once you become aware of his MKULTRA involvement, it takes on a whole new significance. If you go to this page and scroll down to the bottom of Box #4, you'll find his name on Subproject 130 of MKULTRA (the source of the documents is the National Security Archive, donated by John Marks). I wish that Dream's End hadn't taken down his blog, because he wrote about this, but there's an article at a conspiracy site about it that does a good job of covering the basics of Thetford's involvement with The Course and with the CIA.

As for Laura and her group's use of a planchette, I suspect that there are methods of previously planting information in the subconscious minds of one or both people who were going to be touching that planchette. I don't of course know that this was done, but I've found evidence in my own life of powerful post-hypnotic suggestions and I can imagine how such a thing could be accomplished.

Again, I don't want to seem to be casting aspersions on channeling in general or seeing mind control in everything, but the number of other likely New Age manipulations by the mind control boys (and girls) has made me very cautious. Any belief system that can be used to make followers more passive and less likely to become involved in political activism is suspect to me. Did you notice yourself becoming less likely to get involved that way while you were part of their group?

LilyPat