Questioning Consciousness

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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Sun May 08, 2016 6:54 pm

Without hearing my voice or seeing my face as I speak, or analysing my posture or movements, do my words have the ring of truth?

Is it even possible to reasonably doubt my intentions, as they are only to improve the perceptual process?

What is my hidden agenda?
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby JackRiddler » Sun May 08, 2016 7:14 pm

minime » Sun May 08, 2016 5:54 pm wrote:What is my hidden agenda?


You're HMW's sane persona?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby jakell » Mon May 09, 2016 7:09 am

Chalmers' delineation of 'the easy problem' and 'the hard problem' keeps coming back to me and could be useful in navigating past two sticking points we have encountered in the last few pages:


The first is how we tend to choose our frame of reference when looking at complex problems. Certainly we are familiar with varying frames of reference from looking back over our lives (assuming our recall is fairly reliable), and it can be deduced that therefore our present one is not absolute either (assuming we have passable powers of deducton). Given this confusing situation, how can we possibly do any constructive thinking?
One coarse method is to put aside, or even dismiss, anything we find too complex. The former action here can be part of a practical methodology and enables us to keep an open mind. the latter though is not so good and seems a tactic to avoid altering one's frame of reference. Nevertheless, these two can look similar.

Similar as they are, I would say that only the former represents a rational use of Chalmers' model, the latter is more of a kneejerk version.

------------------------

Talk of rationality brings me to that second sticking point..

I think I may have spotted an embryonic version of a rather hackneyed trope appearing under the label of 'rational consciousness'. The phrase itself has meaning, but it is rather pointless to immediately attach value judgements to it (except for rhetoricians of course, they love that). That trope is that rationalism (and therefore 'rational consciousness') is associated with the 'death force', as opposed to some undefined force for good.
Before we get carried away with the human tendency to prefer moralistic narratives, I would like to attempt to pull the irons out of the fire and suggest that 'rational consciousness' (and its mysterious opposite) is, in itself, neutral, as well as rationality being something that people tend to cleave to naturally when attempting positive discussions (ie, we prefer it)

I would say that to put an automatic bad value judgement on rationality is:

1) At worst, hippy hogwash
2) At best, a reflection of the human tendency to have two basic modes of looking at the world.. those of Classical and Romantic understanding which are described well in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.

This last seems to be another version of Chalmers' model, I leave it to others to decide which are the easy/hard poles, and again trying to minimise value judgements.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon May 09, 2016 7:30 am

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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Mon May 09, 2016 7:58 am

jakell wrote....
2) Not really. I have not said that 'rational consciousness' is better (why better?) but that it is the only construct that is demonstrable if we wish to build a model.


Read more closely, I said; Yes, you and billions of other folk feel that more rational consciousness is always better.
So I said ‘you feel’, not you said. Also the word ‘more’ is important to the sentence and context.

Also Parmenides and his ilk created their ‘constructs’ through direct contact to Source, then Plato killed the father, and since then we have a lot of talk about wisdom, yet very limited expressions of actual wisdom.

Talk of rationality brings me to that second sticking point..

I think I may have spotted an embryonic version of a rather hackneyed trope appearing under the label of 'rational consciousness'. The phrase itself has meaning, but it is rather pointless to immediately attach value judgements to it (except for rhetoricians of course, they love that). That trope is that rationalism (and therefore 'rational consciousness') is associated with the 'death force', as opposed to some undefined force for good.
Before we get carried away with the human tendency to prefer moralistic narratives, I would like to attempt to pull the irons out of the fire and suggest that 'rational consciousness' (and its mysterious opposite) is, in itself, neutral, as well as rationality being something that people tend to cleave to naturally when attempting positive discussions (ie, we prefer it)

I would say that to put an automatic bad value judgement on rationality is:

1) At worst, hippy hogwash
2) At best, a reflection of the human tendency to have two basic modes of looking at the world.. those of Classical and Romantic understanding which are described well in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.


I would never put a bad value judgement on rationality, I love the stuff. I merely think that it, like ego would provide better service to us it they functioned as servants rather than as rulers. To say that more is not always better in no way implies an automatic bad value judgement, or that some or any is a bad thing. That would be absurd, no? Why do people feel the need to paint others positions with absurdity? Well I suppose it is a useful rhetorical trick, but it’s not very conducive to having a rational discussion.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby jakell » Mon May 09, 2016 8:20 am

I can only point to what I have said though, this being connected with what I may 'feel' (which is a pretty woolly handle for either of us to use).

Presumably you do recognise that trope though (rationality = the death force) and how persuasive it can be, so it is gratifying to keep that one embryonic for now. (It was your use of the word poison that caught my eye). As we're both of the same opinion on that, let's look out for others using it, it's still pretty prevalent.
I'm also pleased to be able to bring up Pirsig's classical and romantic understanding. As well as providing a useful insight into human perspectives, it does address that 'death force' thing pretty closely

As I've mentioned Chalmers numerous times by now, what do you think of how he manages to encapsulate both Dennet and Hameroff (especially how that enables us not to get to bogged down with quantum physics)? He is my main focus here at present.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby DrEvil » Mon May 09, 2016 1:40 pm

Sounder wrote:

I would never put a bad value judgement on rationality, I love the stuff. I merely think that it, like ego would provide better service to us it they functioned as servants rather than as rulers. To say that more is not always better in no way implies an automatic bad value judgement, or that some or any is a bad thing. That would be absurd, no? Why do people feel the need to paint others positions with absurdity? Well I suppose it is a useful rhetorical trick, but it’s not very conducive to having a rational discussion.


Servants to what? Hippy hogwash? :bigsmile
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby jakell » Mon May 09, 2016 2:18 pm

Hippy Hogwash was a bit hyperbolic I know, but I was trying to define two extremes. (and I like a bit of alliteration)

The servant/ruler metaphor doesn't work for me, it more about using what is apt for the context, not which one dominates. Even when I see folks trying to fashionably argue against the cruel symbol of male suppression and dominance** (etc) that is rationality, I find them falling back on rationality to support this, it's an arrangement that forever upends itself.

Personally I've spent a fair bit of time arguing against what I termed Fundamentalist Scientific Materialism (ie , a belief system) in other places, but it's a lot more of a nuanced issue than the spotty Youtube 'Science Sucks' crowd tend to think it is.

** you could probably add something about Western supremacism in here too, it all works.
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Re: Consciousness is a field phenomenon.

Postby Sounder » Wed May 18, 2016 7:12 am

http://www.zengardner.com/earths-electr ... s-connect/
......Another point that illustrates the importance of coherence is the fact that several organizations around the world have conducted synchronized meditations, prayers, intention experiments, and more. A number of studies have shown that collective meditations, prayer or focused intention directed toward a certain positive outcome can have measurable effects.

For example, one study was done during the Israel-Lebanon war in the 1980s. Two Harvard University professors organized groups of experienced meditators in Jerusalem, Yugoslavia, and the United states with the specific purpose of focusing attention on the area of conflict at various intervals over a 27-month period. During the course of the study, the levels of violence in Lebanon decreased between 40 and 80 percent each time a meditating group was in place. The average number of people killed during the war each day dropped from 12 to three, and war-related injuries fell by 70 percent. (1)

Another great example is a study that was conducted in 1993 in Washington, D.C., which showed a 25 percent drop in crime rates when 2,500 meditators meditated during a specific periods of time with that intention.

Every individual’s energy affects the collective field environment. The means each person’s emotions and intentions generate an energy that affects the field. A first step in diffusing societal stress in the global field is for each of us to take personal responsibility for our own energies. We can do this by increasing our personal coherence and raising our vibratory rate, which helps us become more conscious of the thoughts, feelings, and attitudes that we are feeding the field each day. We have a choice in every moment to take to heart the significance of intentionally managing our energies. This is the free will or local freedom that can create global cohesion. – Dr. Rozman (1)

Often times spiritual seekers resort to meditation in an effort to calm and try to reconcile their programming and shortcomings, and good on them for trying. Still while these efforts serve as an example and model, imagine how much more productive we might be if we had a community wide understanding and model for how our consciousness fields propagate?

Imagine what the world might be like if we all knew for certain that our ‘enemies’ were not enemies at all, but were rather a proper spur toward enlightenment.

Then we might learn to spread our love around to ever wider considerations and people.


http://runesoup.com/2015/05/force-majeu ... y-part-10/

The violent, confusing premise of scientific materialism is promoted as actual reality because -despite its woeful ontological shortcomings- it is the model of reality best suited to selling us Pharma products, GMO foods, material status anxiety, Apple Watches and the Kardashians.


Scientism and Scientific Materialism are dead, and they were zombies from the start. We will heal and do much better when we collectively adopt a culture of life.

Then we may see that the only ‘virtue’ of SM is to raise input costs, leaving most ‘profit’ to large conglomerates, with little else but debt for the little folk. Think Green Revolution.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Consciousness is a field phenomenon.

Postby minime » Wed May 18, 2016 7:36 am

Sounder » Wed May 18, 2016 6:12 am wrote:http://www.zengardner.com/earths-electromagnetic-fields-connect/
......Another point that illustrates the importance of coherence is the fact that several organizations around the world have conducted synchronized meditations, prayers, intention experiments, and more. A number of studies have shown that collective meditations, prayer or focused intention directed toward a certain positive outcome can have measurable effects.

For example, one study was done during the Israel-Lebanon war in the 1980s. Two Harvard University professors organized groups of experienced meditators in Jerusalem, Yugoslavia, and the United states with the specific purpose of focusing attention on the area of conflict at various intervals over a 27-month period. During the course of the study, the levels of violence in Lebanon decreased between 40 and 80 percent each time a meditating group was in place. The average number of people killed during the war each day dropped from 12 to three, and war-related injuries fell by 70 percent. (1)

Another great example is a study that was conducted in 1993 in Washington, D.C., which showed a 25 percent drop in crime rates when 2,500 meditators meditated during a specific periods of time with that intention.

Every individual’s energy affects the collective field environment. The means each person’s emotions and intentions generate an energy that affects the field. A first step in diffusing societal stress in the global field is for each of us to take personal responsibility for our own energies. We can do this by increasing our personal coherence and raising our vibratory rate, which helps us become more conscious of the thoughts, feelings, and attitudes that we are feeding the field each day. We have a choice in every moment to take to heart the significance of intentionally managing our energies. This is the free will or local freedom that can create global cohesion. – Dr. Rozman (1)

Often times spiritual seekers resort to meditation in an effort to calm and try to reconcile their programming and shortcomings, and good on them for trying. Still while these efforts serve as an example and model, imagine how much more productive we might be if we had a community wide understanding and model for how our consciousness fields propagate?

Imagine what the world might be like if we all knew for certain that our ‘enemies’ were not enemies at all, but were rather a proper spur toward enlightenment.

Then we might learn to spread our love around to ever wider considerations and people.


http://runesoup.com/2015/05/force-majeu ... y-part-10/

The violent, confusing premise of scientific materialism is promoted as actual reality because -despite its woeful ontological shortcomings- it is the model of reality best suited to selling us Pharma products, GMO foods, material status anxiety, Apple Watches and the Kardashians.


Scientism and Scientific Materialism are dead, and they were zombies from the start. We will heal and do much better when we collectively adopt a culture of life.

Then we may see that the only ‘virtue’ of SM is to raise input costs, leaving most ‘profit’ to large conglomerates, with little else but debt for the little folk. Think Green Revolution.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Consciousness is a field phenomenon.

Postby jakell » Wed May 18, 2016 7:44 am

Sounder » Wed May 18, 2016 11:12 am wrote:http://www.zengardner.com/earths-electromagnetic-fields-connect/
......Another point that illustrates the importance of coherence is the fact that several organizations around the world have conducted synchronized meditations, prayers, intention experiments, and more. A number of studies have shown that collective meditations, prayer or focused intention directed toward a certain positive outcome can have measurable effects.

For example, one study was done during the Israel-Lebanon war in the 1980s. Two Harvard University professors organized groups of experienced meditators in Jerusalem, Yugoslavia, and the United states with the specific purpose of focusing attention on the area of conflict at various intervals over a 27-month period. During the course of the study, the levels of violence in Lebanon decreased between 40 and 80 percent each time a meditating group was in place. The average number of people killed during the war each day dropped from 12 to three, and war-related injuries fell by 70 percent. (1)

Another great example is a study that was conducted in 1993 in Washington, D.C., which showed a 25 percent drop in crime rates when 2,500 meditators meditated during a specific periods of time with that intention.

Every individual’s energy affects the collective field environment. The means each person’s emotions and intentions generate an energy that affects the field. A first step in diffusing societal stress in the global field is for each of us to take personal responsibility for our own energies. We can do this by increasing our personal coherence and raising our vibratory rate, which helps us become more conscious of the thoughts, feelings, and attitudes that we are feeding the field each day. We have a choice in every moment to take to heart the significance of intentionally managing our energies. This is the free will or local freedom that can create global cohesion. – Dr. Rozman (1)

Often times spiritual seekers resort to meditation in an effort to calm and try to reconcile their programming and shortcomings, and good on them for trying. Still while these efforts serve as an example and model, imagine how much more productive we might be if we had a community wide understanding and model for how our consciousness fields propagate?

Imagine what the world might be like if we all knew for certain that our ‘enemies’ were not enemies at all, but were rather a proper spur toward enlightenment.

Then we might learn to spread our love around to ever wider considerations and people.


http://runesoup.com/2015/05/force-majeu ... y-part-10/

The violent, confusing premise of scientific materialism is promoted as actual reality because -despite its woeful ontological shortcomings- it is the model of reality best suited to selling us Pharma products, GMO foods, material status anxiety, Apple Watches and the Kardashians.


Scientism and Scientific Materialism are dead, and they were zombies from the start. We will heal and do much better when we collectively adopt a culture of life.

Then we may see that the only ‘virtue’ of SM is to raise input costs, leaving most ‘profit’ to large conglomerates, with little else but debt for the little folk. Think Green Revolution.


Correct, they are, and always were tools, however you seem to be pointlessly raising the spectre of people who made idols of them (acolytes of scientism).

This even negates their usefulness as tools.
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Wed May 18, 2016 8:04 am

Correct, they are, and always were tools, however you seem to be pointlessly raising the spectre of people who made idols of them (acolytes of scientism).

This even negates their usefulness as tool.


You may be right about a sloppy use of words, please expand.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby jakell » Wed May 18, 2016 8:28 am

Sounder » Wed May 18, 2016 12:04 pm wrote:
Correct, they are, and always were tools, however you seem to be pointlessly raising the spectre of people who made idols of them (acolytes of scientism).

This even negates their usefulness as tool.


You may be right about a sloppy use of words, please expand.


I haven't a lot more to add but IMO, tools, like machines should be dead, this is what makes them useful. It is the dead things around us that, by comparison, give life a special status.
(dead is a bit of a loaded term and tends to repel, I'm thinking more of a neutral state)

Scientism and machine fetishes** do tend to be a worship of dead things, conferring a sort of 'life' upon them, but they are an aberration. Association does tend to encourage people to want to throw out the tools too.

** Not so unusual as I'm referring to people loving their computers and smartphones as well as cars etc
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Wed May 18, 2016 5:23 pm

Correct, they are, and always were tools, however you seem to be pointlessly raising the spectre of people who made idols of them (acolytes of scientism).


I never said they are tools, anyway, sure they are a tool of a sort but they are much more than that. It is the backbone of our dysfunctional understanding and relation to reality. Billions of propaganda dollars are spent to maintain this very costly, inefficient and wasteful system.

The last line here might get more consideration if you can tell me how it is that I 'seem to be pointlessly raising the spectre of people who made idols of them'.

My basic point still, is that all of us are very poor in our abilities at creating coherent field effects through focused application of consciousness because communally we interact, for the most part, under the banner of a very shallow modeling of reality.
This even negates their usefulness as tools.


I haven't a lot more to add but IMO, tools, like machines should be dead, this is what makes them useful. It is the dead things around us that, by comparison, give life a special status.


Why would them being dead make them more useful? Anyway IMO objects all have life and soul in them, nothing is dead. They will treat you well if you treat them well.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby jakell » Wed May 18, 2016 6:19 pm

'Nothing is dead'?... apart from scientism and scientific materialism apparently.

I put aside the word 'dead' as it is a loaded word and tends to repel and replaced it with neutral or lifeless. A tool is an object of fixed and predictable function . To use something that has life as our tool is really an abuse of its lifeforce, it objectifies it.

Therefore non-living things are more useful as tools
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