"The Jewish People": A Zionist Invention?

[sunny]

JackRiddler:

At this point a non-violent strategy is unviable. Israel has the Palestinians penned in, it's building a wall and bombs from the air. I have no answers, except that the support for Israel has to be cut off from the U.S. This in turn requires clarity about the true strength of "the Lobby" and of Israel's role in American imperialism. Theories of "Zionist" control of the U.S. a la xymphora or even Walt & Mearsheimer serve to altogether muddy the reality.

I abandoned xymphora some time ago as I detected a foul whiff of Protocols approval.(sorry, that's just my opinion) However, W & M enjoy the esteem of many Jewish anti-zionists, such as Philip Weiss.

And if you'll read Jewish anti-zionist Jeffrey Blankforts interview here you may change your mind as to the degree of control exerted by Zionists over our political processes, where it concerns Israel. Indeed, I think understanding this degree of control is exactly what we need for clarity's sake.

Now don't get me wrong. The US is an Evil Empire. "It" as an entity could care less what Israel does to the Palestinians, even probably in the absence of an intimidating zionist presence in Washington. If every single Palestinian turned up dead tomorrow, the Evil Empire would shrug it's shoulders and go about it's dirty business. Nothing we can do will effect this attitude, but I think we can have an effect with boycotts and divestment campaigns.

[JackRiddler]

the degree of control exerted by Zionists over our political processes, where it concerns Israel.

First of all, "anti-Zionist Jew" is not necessarily a qualification. The truth of a statement isn't enhanced just because it comes from an anti-Zionist Jew, who may be just as emotionally invested for personal reasons as the Zionist Jew, or the Christian Zionist, or the raving racist, or me or you. Ultimately the truth of a statement depends on the truth of a statement (sorry to be circular).

Anyway, I doubt I disagree - where it concerns U.S. support for Israel against the Palestinians. But this is also true of the pharmaceutical lobby, where it concerns their industry, and there are many other examples in the self-service lobbying system that passes for U.S. politics.

Where things are muddied by the most resolute anti-Zionists, for example, is in the current idea (also in M&W) that the Iraq war (the culmination of 30 years of U.S. imperialist history) was actually run by a "dual national" Zionist submarine, captained by Perle and Feith against the noble factions of the Bush regime as represented by Powell and Scowcroft. Or the idea that the history of U.S. imperialism dating back decades is actually a "Zionist" tail wagging "American interests."

[sunny]

First of all, "anti-Zionist Jew" is not necessarily a qualification. The truth of a statement isn't enhanced just because it comes from an anti-Zionist Jew, who may be just as emotionally invested for personal reasons as the Zionist Jew, or the Christian Zionist, or the raving racist, or me or you. Ultimately the truth of a statement depends on the truth of a statement (sorry to be circular).

I disagree. While I do not think that only Jews should be allowed to speak on this issue, Jew hate is eliminated as a motivation when such ones do speak out, therefore lending their opinions more weight and credibility, or maybe it just has more of an impact. Sure they are emotional, this is an emotional issue for all concerned. This does not in any way disqualify their opinions. The truth of their statements, as I linked above, speaks for themselves.

[AlicetheKurious]

Sorry I've fallen behind, I just got home, but I still want to respond to wordspeak2. Everybody else can just skip it, ok?

wordspeak2, I just re-read it and am stunned by how many lies and racist crap can be crammed into one, admittedly long, post.

Wow. So, the Muslim Brotherhood is the precursor of Hizbullah? And Hizbullah and "al Qaeda" have anything at all to do with each other? If this is what Dave Emory says, then Dave Emory has completely discredited himself, because he's either an ignorant twit or a sleazy liar.

And they're all rooted in Nazism? Yes, I suppose from the zionist perspective, if you don't voluntarily give up your home and land to Jewish settlers, and agree to live as a sub-human in a Jewish state, by definition you must be a Nazi.

In light of the most-recent news of the Palestinian gunman killing eight people in an Israeli school today and all of Gaza cheering it on- I think we should be seeing the whole picture honestly, folks.

Yes, we should, wordspeak2. And "honestly" speaking, describing this particular yeshiva as a "school" is misleading, no? More of a center for the racist indoctrination of fanatic, genocidal thieves and killers, who are sent out to murder and terrorize Palestinians in their own homes. Funny how you're so riled up about fictional Islamic "fascists", but dishonestly ignore the extreme fascism propagated by that particular "school"...

As for the Palestinians in Gaza "cheering it on": do you blame them? How about if you take into consideration that the vast majority of these Palestinians were born and raised prisoners in a vast concentration camp, where the only Israelis and Jews they ever saw, were those who were murdering their children, bulldozing their homes, shooting at them, stealing their money, starving them and shooting missiles at them from the sky? A majority of the Palestinians in Gaza have literally never seen any decent human beings, but many monsters and killers, who were Jewish. Is that relevant?

The Hopeful Left is a species associated with the Arab-Israeli dispute. It believes that the Arabs fighting Israel are waging a classic struggle for national liberation. All they want is a state of their own in Judea and Samaria, otherwise known as the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

No, darling. "Judea and Samaria" are the illegitimate names given by the illegal occupation religious fanatics, to the Palestinian territories they have stolen. "Otherwise known" is one way of referring to their internationally-recognized legal names, but it's not the honest way.

Beginning three years ago, I was forced by the tremendous escalation of media attacks on Israel to study the facts about the Arab-Israeli dispute. I now believe the Hopeful Left is dangerously wrong. There is much evidence that the so-called Palestinian movement is not an outgrowth of the history of some Palestinian people, but an artificial creation of the Arab states, with much help, at various times, from Great Powers, such as the former Soviet Union, the United States, Britain and others.

Fascinating. Some Palestinian people? So, the history of Palestine is not the history of all Palestinians, according to Mr. Emory? Oh, I forgot: it's the zionists' right to dictate to Palestinians what their own history is, and who represents them.

In my previous post, I explained the fallacy of conflating the non-Palestinian PLO that was formed in 1964, with the Palestinian PLO of 1968, on which Jared Israel bases this bizarre conclusion:

Doesn’t this support the conclusion that the so-called Palestinian national liberation movement is, in fact, not a movement for liberation at all, but an attack force cloaked in the rhetoric of national liberation, a rhetoric chosen as a public relations device, because it has worldwide appeal? That this ‘movement’ was not created to strive for national liberation, but as a weapon against Jews?

So, in other words, the Palestinian people do not really want to live free in their own land, nor to obtain justice for the atrocities and crimes committed against them, nor to have their inalienable rights respected and reconstituted. Even though they have the law and moral right on their side, even though they are living in a zionist hell, no. It's all just a sneaky trick, an excuse to attack Jews.

A more racist, hateful, stupid analysis is hard to imagine. But then, the zionists never cease to amaze me with their contempt for logic, the law and basic human decency.

Speaking of the Jewish settlers that were illegally in Gaza:

As everyone has seen on TV, this means the forcible removal of the Jewish population of these areas and the destruction of their homes and workplaces, indeed of everything they built over many years. ...

So let us look at ‘disengagement’ in terms of this question: is the PLO involved in a movement for national liberation? Or against Jews?

Arabs live in Gaza; until now, Jews have lived there too. Gaza Jews built towns and villages out of what was previously considered un-farmable land. Junk land. In 1967, when Israel seized Gaza from Egypt, that land was inhabited by nobody. These are indisputable facts.

Woohoo. Welcome to the zionist alternative universe. "Gaza Jews"? These were fanatic armed colonial settlers who forced themselves onto the 1.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza, with the backing of a formidable number of Israeli soldiers, due to the illegal occupation of Gaza in 1967. During curfews by the Israeli occupation forces, they would regularly go on murderous rampages against the trapped Palestinian population, fully protected by the occupation army.

Numbering less than 8,200 individuals (that's just over 0.005% of the population, for those who can't do the math), they stole 40% of Gaza's land and water, and made life a daily hell for their Palestinian victims.

Were they held accountable for their theft and terrorism against Palestinians? No, they were rewarded with brand new homes, and big bucks at the expense of the amazingly (and inexplicably) generous American taxpayers:

Gaza settler leaders said a fair payout and a united move could defuse resistance to the pullout, which was set for the summer. The settlers were currently slated to get nearly US $900 million, expected to be about $200,000 to $500,000 per family. Settler representatives would propose to Prime Minster Sharon on their first meeting with him that the "Gush Katif" residents (about 7,000 people) be moved as a group to the nearby coastal area of Nitzanim, north of the Israeli town of Ashkelon.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85255d ... enDocument

Imagine that! You steal land and homes that belong to other people, you beat up, kill and oppress those other people for 38 years, under the protection of an illegal occupation, and at the end, you not only make out like a bandit, you feel SORRY FOR YOURSELF.

If you have a hard time imagining that, get this: there are actually people who then BLAME THE VICTIMS for not "welcoming these Jewish individuals to stay"!!!

Compare and contrast the treatment of these Jewish terrorists and thieves, to that of the Palestinian refugees of Gaza (from a UN report in 2004):

UNRWA announced it had stopped distributing emergency food aid to some 600,000 refugees in the Gaza Strip. Its statement said the suspension followed restrictions introduced by Israel on the sole commercial crossing into Gaza through which it is able to bring in humanitarian assistance.

The Agency said it had now completely run out of stocks of rice, flour, cooking oil and other essential products. "Under normal circumstances, UNRWA delivers some 250 tons of food aid per day in Gaza alone as part of a wider programme of emergency assistance to refugees, initiated shortly after the outbreak of strife in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in September 2000," the statement said. Since then, the Gaza Strip has been in a deep socio-economic crisis resulting from on and off closures of its border with Israel and the destruction of thousands of homes and agricultural and industrial properties. Almost two out of three households in Gaza live below the poverty line and more than half its workforce is unemployed. UNRWA said it urged Israel to loosen its restrictions in Gaza in a joint statement with other UN agencies in March, but thus far without success. ...

Amnesty International expressed deep concern for the health and well-being of some 600,000 Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip, and called on Israel to immediately lift unlawful and disproportionate restrictions on movement, which were hampering relief efforts by humanitarian organizations.

"Israel, as the occupying Power, must take immediate measures to comply with international law and ensure that the basic needs of the Palestinian population, including access to food, are met. Israel has consistently failed to meet these obligations for decades, leaving the international community to shoulder the burden of providing food, medical care, education, and shelter for the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip," said Amnesty International.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/e9abb7 ... enDocument

So, if you're a Jewish religious nut, you get rewarded for terrorism and land theft. If you're Palestinian, your home gets bulldozed and your family is starved, even if you do nothing wrong. Plus, you get lessons in morality, from zionists living in the U.S.

This Jared Israel is a real hoot:

For example, if Arab organizations were really fighting for a positive (self-determination) and not a negative (against Jews), what would have been their attitude towards the Jews who lived in Gaza for 38 years?

The answer is, they would have welcomed Jewish individuals to stay. The Palestinian Authority would have published official documents guaranteeing protection of the rights of what would be, upon the departure of Israeli forces, a Jewish minority. And they would have guaranteed that attacks on Jewish people, prior to the proposed pullout, were punished as sharply as possible, thus making an international statement. This would be a brilliant stroke, creating the impression that Arab leaders were anti-racist. It would have weakened Jewish opposition to turning Gaza over to full Arab control.

Why haven’t Arab leaders taken this politically shrewd stand?

Is that worth responding to? Hmm. Ok. Here's what the Israeli "withdrawal" looked like, to the Palestinians who lived through it:


Apaches. Explosions. Denunciations. Broken bodies. Blood. Shrieks. Again.

This is what Israel's "disengagement" means — Gaza's men, women, and children are locked up in the world's largest prison camp while the Israeli Army slaughters them. Americans call it "shooting fish in a barrel." America's Ambassador to Israel "understands Israel's position," and adds: "Israel has a right to defend itself." Now attacking civilians is defense.

No electricity through of Gaza City, explosions in the distance, media reports of aerial attacks throughout the Gaza Strip. Time to work the phones.

A friend in Khan Younis says he can hear explosions. Not sure where. Loud. He's waiting to hear ambulances — nothing yet. Sharon promises more retaliation.

Last Friday. The last Israeli soldiers roll out — celebration! True joy!

Israeli Army kills several Hamas militants. The world press applauds Sharon's peacemaking.

Hamas fires off 35 Kassam rockets across the border in retaliation. Hit nothing. Hours later, the Israelis destroy a Hamas truck filled with live Qassam rockets at a rally in Jebalya. 20 killed. 80 maimed. Sharon smiles for the press, Hamas produces American-made bomb fragments.

Palestinian President Abbas denounces the cease-fire violations. Sharon instructs Abbas to "crack down" on militants. Abbas tells him to expletive-deleted off (not in quite those words.)

UN Monitor John Dugard reports to the UN Human Rights Commission: "This focus of attention on Gaza has allowed Israel to continue with the construction of the wall in Palestinian territory, the expansion of settlements and the de-Palestinization of Jerusalem with virtually no criticism." Israel's UN Ambassador calls it "Israel-bashing."

Saturday: Hamas declares complete ceasefire — too late to prevent the Israeli bombing of a Hamas-run elementary school — 20 children wounded, including a 40-day-old infant. The media reports Israel fired 3 missiles at Khan Younis..

Sunday, 5am: Half of Gaza City jolted awake by the explosion as Hamas's Mohammed Sheik Khalil and his assistant are murdered by an Apache-fired missile. 20 or more bystanders wounded.

On the coast road near Gaza City, flames turn the sky blood-red as bystanders try to gather scattered body parts for the ambulances. Israel claims responsibility.

Sharon storms out of a Likud meeting, diverts attention with the assassination to rally his base. Sharon builds settlements with one hand in the West Bank while slaughtering civilians with the other.

Last week, medical patients were lined up to cross into Egypt before the borders were sealed. Fatma Al Almi, 42, said that day: "We were thinking the Israeli withdrawal would end the bloodshed and black days, but it's just a new stage of Sharon's war plans."

Reports of shelling every night now in Rafah. Nabil, 24, from Yebna Camp says: "It's horrible, sad, what's happening. The Apaches shelling Rafah Camp constantly. All our windows broken. The children are frightened. No one can sleep."

"The situation is horrible. Twenty killed in Jebalya today." My colleague has seen plenty of conflict in the last five years, there is panic in his voice over a mobile-phone connection.

"They're shelling now — can you hear it? I'm not sure where they're hitting." He holds his phone so the directional mike can pick up the ambient noise — though the whup-whup of approaching Apaches, the thud of explosions, the roar of Israeli F-16s, are sounds engraved on every Palestinian's memory.

Welcome to disengagement, Sharon style.

How many lives, broken bodies, hopes, dreams, yearnings have to die this time before decent people outside demand peace and justice for Palestine? Is our dream going to be destroyed, or just deferred?

Israel is waging war on the civilian population of Gaza. The UN calls it "collective punishment." International law calls it illegal.

Palestinians call it everyday life.

Link

There is a substantial Arab minority in Israel, with normal rights; indeed, Israeli Arabs enjoy more rights than those in any Arab state. For example, in what Arab state can Arabs organize and campaign for government office without fear of police repression?

Yes, all of us Arabs envy the "Arab minority" in the JEWISH state. The one where cabinet ministers openly and frequently advocate that the Arab minority be thrown out, into the wasteland created by the zionists in the territories they occupy.

The one where most of that Arab minority were robbed of the homes they were terrorized into leaving, and which were given to Jews instead, because the Jewish state declared those Arabs still within its borders to be "present absentees". The one where Arabs are forbidden from renting or even living on 93% of the land, which is reserved exclusively for Jews.

The one where, if an Arab citizen of Israel marries a non-citizen, he or she can't live with his or her spouse, either in Israel or in the Palestinian territories illegally occupied by Israel. The one where Arabs suffer severe discrimination in social services, legal rights and even daily interactions with Jewish citizens, because their "nationality" is not "Jewish" but "Arab", even though they are Israeli citizens.

That’s how real national liberation movements work. In liberating themselves, they embrace potential brothers, rather than organizing the murder of Jews.

Funny how the Nazis weren't defeated by embracing them "as brothers"; offhand, I can't think of a single national liberation movement that defeated an army engaged in genocide against their people, by embracing their oppressors "as brothers".

In fact, the only example of Arab territory liberated from the vicious zionist invaders and occupiers, is that of Lebanon, in which the occupation was ended by the heroic fighters of...Hizbullah.

Maybe you can try to explain your theory to the alumni of that fanatic settler "school", ask them to embrace their Palestinian victims as brothers. You know, stop killing them, stealing their property, beating them up, destroying their livelihood, and like that?

Obey international law and respect human rights, instead.

Or is that too "anti-semitic" to ask?

[Penguin]

Heres some info on the religious soldiers, and the yeshivas. For background info on Israeli Army. All from israeli sources...

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/ ... 81,00.html
"The affair began when four hesder yeshiva soldiers who were sent to undergo an observation balloon operating course several days ago, refused to enter the classroom when they found out that the course would be delivered by female soldiers.

The course's commander urged the soldiers not to leave the course, explaining that the conditions in class fell in line with the "proper integration" rules agreed upon by rabbis and the army.

However, the soldiers insisted not to attend the course, and were consequently put on trial and sentenced to 21 days in military prison.

Officials at the troops' hesder yeshiva backed up their decision, but IDF officers claimed that the troops had "crossed the line."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124558
"Ronsky said the subject of women's service in combat was currently under debate and that the Military Rabbinate's position on the subject was certainly negative. He added that practically speaking, "there will be very few girls who want to serve three years as fighters in the paratroops or tanks; it seems a little imaginary to me."

"One out of three girls from the religious Zionist stream joins the army, he said: "This is quite a lot [of women] and we have never dealt with this matter in the Rabbinate.""

"Proponents of women's integration see it as an expression of equal rights and equal opportunity, and claim that as long as combat service is an exclusive male privilege, power will continue to be concentrated in male hands and Israeli society will never offer women true equality."

""every single study which shows a clear difference of 20% to 40% in stamina, carrying of loads, oxygen consumption and other parameters which are necessary for prolonged warfare has disappeared or been made to disappear from public view.""

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/957169.html
"Shooting Palestinian bystanders; illegally commandeering cars and going on joyrides; torturing a youth by pressing a heater to his face and beating cuffed prisoners on their way to custody. These are only some of the reported cases of abuse for which Israel Defense Forces soldiers serving in the West Bank are currently on trial."

"During the trial of the commander of the force during the Dahariya incident, First Lieutenant Ya'akov Gigi, his lawyers argued that his actions were part of a pattern of inappropriate behavior within the brigade that had filtered down to the junior officer corps and the combat troops. "

"In another instance, soldiers at roadblocks choked 10-year-old Palestinians with their bare hands until the children passed out. "Hebron is like the Wild West and the army is the law," a soldier said. "We would see who could go without breathing the longest."

"They are trying to instill a sense of pride in the unit, but so far they have failed. The [color] of the beret is ugly - like that of Hezbollah. If you look at its lining you might expect to find a 'Made in Syria' label," a soldier who only recently finished advanced training joked. "

There seems to be some tensions inside the army seculars and religious people too..And teaching you to "step on your values".
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Briefs/6748.htm
"On Sunday, Israel Radio reported that the Army is to investigate an incident where a commander ordered a religious soldier to step on tallit -- a prayer shawl -- during a "lesson in values." The commander handed the soldier two sacks and ordered him to put both on the ground and step on them. When the soldier realized one of the sacks held tallit, he went into shock and asked to see an army psychiatrist."

http://www.ou.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/11/
A long, personal story of a soldier. Describes religion/army from a personal viewpoint.

"At large bases, the kashrut supervision was generally very good. The fellow in charge of the kitchen would usually be dati. However, I was at 2 tiny bases/posts, in Lebanon in 1992 over Pesah 1995 (see above). At the little base in Lebanon (just over the border), when I got there, the fellow in charge of the kitchen (he doubled as the cook) was on leave & everybody was, more or less, fending/cooking for themselves. I didn�t eat anything cooked until he came back & took charge. We rekashered some stuff. At the tiny post next to Ramot, we got a hot lunch brought to us from a nearby (big) base every day (in little foil trays, like TV dinners). They were OK. At the post, we had a huge insulated cooler that we used as a fridge. For breakfast & dinner we were on our own. I was the only frum guy there & saw that I couldn�t rely on the kashrut of the few pots & pans there (the other guys were mixing fleishig & milchig) so aside from the hot lunch we got, I ate only cold food for breakfast & dinner. I got so sick of that that I made soup for myself in our coffeepot (a good medic will always improvise!). "

"So, after getting my discharge certificate at my depot earlier this year, I walked over to the base shul. I need to say minha because it was late enough in the day that if I left right away & drove home, it would be too late when I got home. But before I said the actual minha prayers, I walked up to the aron kodesh & took hold of the parochet and kissed it and held it to my face and I cried as I thanked Hashem for affording me the privilege of serving in the IDF, of doing ordinary things and having ordinary experiences, of being just one of the guys. I thanked Him that I had never had to aim a weapon at anyone, much less fire one (except on the shooting range). I thanked Him that I never had to put an IV into anyone except in exercises and that I never had to anything more serious than take out splinters, give out Tylenol & refer soldiers to this or that doctor. I thanked Him for keeping me & my family safe & whole. I thanked Him that I was fortunate enough to have never done anything as an Israeli soldier that I should be ashamed of or regret."

"I do get to keep my uniform, boots, etc. I want to wear them to my 25th high school reunion in Pittsburgh next year just for the heck of it & to show everyone that I made good & and that I’m very proud of having served in the IDF."


And then the real rightwing religious types:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Gen ... ement.html
"Rav Hershel Schachter, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva University, issued an apology today for a statement he made that appeared to advocate shooting the Prime Minister of Israel should the government give away Yerushalayim.

In a 39-second clip posted on YouTube this week, Rabbi Schachter is seen having a discussion in Eretz Yisroel with American Talmidim learning at Yeshivat HaKotel in Yerushalayim. He seems to be answering a question regarding serving in the IDF.

“First you have to know what the army is going to do. If the army is going to destroy Gush Katif, there’s no mitzvah to destroy Eretz Yisroel…….. If the army is going to give away Yerushalayim, then I would tell everyone to resign from the army - I’d tell them to shoot the Rosh Hamemshalah.”

“No one should go to the army if they (IDF) are doing aveirus.”

Rabbi Schachter released the following apology for his statements.

“Statements I made informally have been publicly excerpted this week. I deeply regret such statements and apologize for them. They were uttered spontaneously, off the cuff, and were not meant seriously. And, they do not, God forbid, represent my views. Jewish law demands respect for representatives of the Jewish government and the state of Israel.”

And from comments there:
"#

Eyin roeh, vozen shomas, v’chol mashech besefer nictavim
The Chafez Chayim moshel of the camera & recorder moves onto a whole new level
About 10 years ago when a person took a picture of you, or video of you – they couldn’t do it secretly. The camera was big, had a big flash, the video cameras were HUGE, the small tape recorders were huge compared to today’s MP3 recorders etc.
Today every phone has a camera – video etc. were living in a time where you never know when someone is photographing / video-graphing / recording your every move!! Then we have the internet, and sites like YouTube. In seconds your (what you thought were private remarks / actions etc.) are now broadcasted worldwide!!

The moshel of Eyin roeh, vozen shomas, v’chol mashech besefer nictavim has a whole new meaning today!

Comment by frumblogger — March 7, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
#

What’s wrong with his original statement?

Comment by mrjones — March 7, 2008 @ 2:11 pm"

[JackRiddler]

It's probably fair to assume that someone like Zbigniew Brzezisnki would have gladly accepted the offers made by Iraq at that time.

It's probably fair to assume that someone like Bush and Cheney wouldn't. This may be the reason why, instead of giving a job to Brzezinski, they appointed the likes of Perle and Feith to do some of the dirty work in preparing for the Iraq invasion that Bush and Cheney fully intended long before their coming to power, and which was executed for reasons relating to control of oil, backing the dollar and profit maximization for their friends. And as for Brzezinski, originator of the Carter Doctrine and part-father of the Afghanistan jihad, don't be so sure. Not being in power gives him a lot of leeway to claim he'd act differently if he was in charge.

And if the output of laws favoring a lobby's interests is supposed to be an indication of its power, then maybe the pharmaceuticals and other industries who directly write large volumes of domestic and international law and receive hundreds of billions in corporate welfare do indeed dwarf the pro-Israeli lobby, which by comparison can claim a few hate speech clauses and an annual appropriation for Israel of a few billion dollars. But a lot more buzz, it's true.

I do not favor any restrictions on free speech. But there are Holocaust denial laws in Europe because of the specific European experience with advocates of global Jewish conspiracy theory in practice during the Nazi and "classical fascist" era. I don't take them as evidence of the all-might of the "Holocaust Church," or declare Zundel my hero, or rev up the apologia for the Nazis, or blame the acts of the Nazis on the Jews.

[Eldritch]

The "alleged" Holocaust?!?

I knew a woman whose parents were murdered in the Holocaust. She herself survived, but bore the number on her arm.

Your use of the word "alleged" in regards to the Holocaust is offensive to her memory, the memory of her parents, and millions more besides.

[Lurquacious]

We have a full-out anti-Semite Holocaust denier on board:

JackRiddler wrote:
or blame the acts of the Nazis on the Jews.

PatrickSMcNally replied:

Well that much would be perfectly consistent with the view of all major revisionist scholars such as Robert Faurisson, Carlo Mattogno, Jurgen Graf, Germar Rudolf and a few others. They too have never said a single thing about "blaming Jews for the acts of Nazis." What they've pointed very clearly is that scientific evidence does not support the myth of any Nazi camps ever having used gas chambers as a tool of mass-execution; there is no evidence that any Nazi plan to exterminate Jews, as opposed to forcibly deporting them en masse to the far eastern ends of Europe in the midst of a horrible war on the eastern front, ever existed; the number six million is not supported by any real demographic data, about one million Jews died from all causes during WWII, including death in combat and in guerilla warfare, with about 300,000 of these one million deaths occurring around the Nazi camp system. None of that has anything to do with "blaming Jews for the acts of Nazis." It's simply a question of being clear what the actual acts of the Nazis really were, and what they were not.

[slimmouse]

/ And yes, the ability to outlaw such investigations and order arrests for people attempting a methodical analysis of topics which have treated shabbily by the court historians does signify a much greater level of power than anything which the tobacco industry possesses. Your invoking the canard of a "global Jewish conspiracy" only obfuscates the fact that today the alleged Holocaust is our modern religion and power does derive from such religion.

Yep.

And let me tell you Patrick. It aint no "Jews" who are wielding this power.

They are the dupes of the duped who pay homage to the eternal fucking race card that is busting mankind into a thousand million pieces.

Now then, who beyond the gaze of the ordinary commoner, or even the philanphropic intellectual is clever/devious enough to pull off such a stunt ?

[Eldritch]

I knew a woman whose parents were murdered in the Holocaust. She herself survived, but bore the number on her arm.

Your post illustrates very well the logical gap in such mythology, so it's worth taking some note of.

And your post illustrates that there is no gap in your mythology whatsoever—it is uninterrupted bullshit.

The woman to whom I referred knew what happened to her parents. Only an imbecile, such as yourself—who knows nothing of her particular case!—would suppose, without any further inquiry, that he would know better than this woman herself.

[Jeff]

Patrick,

Advocating holocaust denial on this forum is strictly forbidden.

[Jeff]

PatrickSMcNally has been banned. I was initially going to issue a warning since he's a new member, but then I thought the hell with that. This is an anti-fascist forum and I mean to enforce zero tolerance when it comes to the Nazi apologetics of Holocaust denial.

I've deleted his posts to help the thread return to topic.

[Eldritch]

Thank you, Jeff.

[Et in Arcadia ego]

Somewhere out there Doodad is frothing at the mouth reading this thread.

[JackRiddler]

McNally, re: "global Jewish conspiracy theory."

The secret Zionist master plan behind "USRAEL" (meaning the USA) has already been introduced to this board by Alice, who started this thread, and plenty of people who take up Holocaust denialism also go there. Sorry if I'm conflating, you'd be right to say it's unfair: Your man Rudolf does not go there. His bad guys are the Allies, especially those Soviet bastards who were going to invade the poor innocent Reich, forcing it to launch Operation Barbarossa as a preemptive war -- but not really for Lebensraum, as he assures us, and never mind the Nazis' own ideology.

His other bad guy is the modern German state.

I read his main article, here, intro to an apparently large anthology:

http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndintro.html

I'm not going to spend the next two days deconstructing it, nor do I feel an overwhelming need. I'll quote a few choice cuts -- some of the findings that finally arrive after the long treatises on academic freedoms and legal history -- to show that he is, indeed, heading somewhere. Namely: Holocaust as a myth, created entirely by the Allies post-war and especially by the bad, bad Commies who were so much worse than Hitler and who are defended to this day by the degenerate, self-hating left.

The Nazis' extensive documentation of their crimes? Forgeries all, on captured Nazi stationery. Anyway, where's an order from Hitler saying to kill all the Jews? (Just a manifesto and two decades of speeches where he threatens them with extermination - never mind.)

The Sonderbehandlung ("Special Treatment"=liquidations, executions)? A mistaken interpretation, they probably meant de-lousing.

Photos? Labeled falsely. Eyewitness accounts? Notoriously unreliable, therefore all wrong. Aryanization, expropriation, ghettos, deportations of entire populations, suffocation in packed cattle cars, forced-labor camps, death by intentional starvation, torture, medical experiments? Apparently best not mentioned. Probably all made up in the sham trials at Nuremberg. If one real shower proves to have been mistakenly labeled a gas chamber, then none of it happened.

He's not a Nazi, not openly anyway, but an apologist for the Nazis nevertheless. He shouldn't be imprisoned for these writings, however.

So. Here's some Rudolf. First, on the Nazi euthanasia action of "unworthy life" (mental patients and congenitally handicapped). He figures it's totally small potatoes compared to the modern-day practice of abortion:

To the best of my knowledge there have been no doubts advanced by the revisionist side regarding the factuality of those killings effected within the scope of euthanasia; these killings number some 100,000.[89] The moral assessment of such an elimination of totally incapacitated persons is a different matter. In the western democracies in particular, this topic was the subject of much controversial discussion and in some cases was even practiced right until the end of the war,[90] and only recently the question whether passively and actively assisted suicide should be expanded, in severe cases, to include euthanasia as well, has once again taken center stage.[91] Far be it from me, a non-specialist, to advance an opinion of my own on this explosive topic. Like Nolte,[92] however, I cannot help but remark in amazement that people today are morally outraged by the killing of 100,000 generally severely disabled persons for perhaps dubious reasons of 'genetic public welfare' during the 12 years of National Socialist dictatorship, whereas those same people are not shocked in the slightest by the willful murder of unborn, but healthy persons numbering some four million in the last 12 years in Germany alone - murders in most cases motivated solely by materialistic and egoistical considerations. Clearly the moral categories by which we judge today are completely different than those between 1933 and 1945 in Germany. I doubt that they are better.

Rudolf on "perhaps the biggest genocide in history":

Additionally one must consider that the leaders of the victorious powers made sure that they could not be punished for similar or even worse crimes: post-war treaties with Germany have determined that no citizen of the allied nations can be prosecuted by German authorities, and amnesty declarations set an end to any prosecution in many countries. Thus, neither Stalin nor Roosevelt, neither Churchill nor Tito, neither de Gaulle nor Edward Beneš and their millions of "willing executioners" could have been punished for the genocides they committed against the German people during the war (by air raids) and mainly after the war ('ethnic cleansing' of eastern Europe, POW camps, GULag). Subsequently, the genocide against the German people, perhaps the biggest genocide in the history of mankind, is nearly forgotten.[98] Under this perspective, the entire 'Nazi'-witch-hunt, which has lasted more than 50 years, is nothing more than a gigantic hypocrisy.

On the humanitarian measures at Auschwitz:

The first part of this contribution, by Hans Jürgen Nowak, reveals a fascinating insight into how the camp authorities in Auschwitz tried to save the lives of their inmates by using high-tech devices to combat lice. During World War II the Germans developed microwave ovens, and the only place where this technology was used during the war was as a delousing device in Auschwitz.

Funny how those lice always show up with the Jews, isn't it?

Noting our mistaken view of resistance to foreign invasions:

In order to understand the historical context of German reprisals in eastern Europe, this author has written an introduction and some concluding remarks about the cruel und illegal partisan warfare as it was initiated and conducted mainly by the Soviet Union. These contributions were not included in the German edition of this volume.

I'm sure BushMcClinton feels the same way about the cruel and illegal terror insurgents in Iraq. Which, after all, was only a preventive war. And did you ever see a written order from Bush to do 9/11, or to lie about WMDs? Heck, no. Neither ever happened.

Yet right until the late 1980s, the leftist media in particular thoughtlessly parroted this Communist propaganda.[156] (NOTE: Context is Katyn massacre, tenor is typical.) The reason for this is probably to be found in the politically, i.e., non-scientifically motivated desire to keep the Third Reich from being exonerated from historical guilt even where this has become inevitable, the greater purpose being to prevent, by thwarting even the partial revision of historiography, any farther-reaching revisions which might ultimately cast doubt upon the politically desirable, unique and unparalleled evil of the National Socialist regime.

So why does the establishment refuse to bring, or to allow, even one bit of material evidence in court in this case of an allegedly unparalleled mass murder? Because they fear that their thesis of the collective guilt of the German people (and accordingly, the collective innocence of the Jewish people) might be completely refuted?

I lived in Germany 15 years and I have to tell you, the majority of Germans today, besides not sharing in this nonsense, are grateful for the Nazi loss in World War II. Not at the time, but soon enough it ended up as a liberation. The subsequent history has turned their country into one of the richest and best places to live on earth. It was their luck to be the only cold battlefield in the Cold War, the only place where the superpowers knew they had to put on a good show.