rigorousintuition.ca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma
http://soundwaves.usgs.gov/2006/09/research3.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17920003/wi ... 3?GT1=9246
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sectio ... id=4453921

Contemplate the possible implications, again if you already have. Some implications are very bad, but...some are very good. All of them are 1000% fucking percent weird.

I'm amazed that there've only been a few references to it on this board, and I'm stunned to find that one of them was posted by me, even though a couple weeks ago I happened on it while browsing wikipedia and it blew my mind as if I'd never read about it before. Bizarre. Here are all of the RI threads that have ever mentioned toxoplasma, excluding this one and the Bonomo/Ferez thread:

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... 607#110607
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... 353#100353
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... toxoplasma
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... toxoplasma
(Notable for "The Parasites That Be", lol!)
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... toxoplasma
(Notable for the hilarious replies)

Thanks for this 4B. Holy fucker balls. I had never heard of this. I read through the first set of external links you provided, rather quickly as I do not have a whole lot of time this morning. None of the articles seem to mention the exact mechanism by which T. Gondii effects the amygdala and thereby behavior, but as I said I read throught he articles pretty quickly and may have missed it. Is the exact mechanism known?

As for the implications... only the horrifying ones stand out in my mind. The only positive implication I can imagine is that we might gain a deeper understanding of how our brains work by studying the mechanism by which T.Gondii so precisely effects behavior.

Is there any evidence of the evolutionary past of this pathogen? Like how long it has been around? I ask because I find it intriguing that T. Gondii has such an exclusive relationship with felines and their food, rats being among the most common food of felines. Rats as we all know are favored laboratory test subjects for a variety of sound reasons.

somewhere on teh internetz there is a theory that sun worship is a result of an increased need for vitamin D as created by some symbiotic bacterial-colony style organize, and this sun worship and solar religions, etc., with there male-oriented warrior focus, etc. etc. etc.

i tend to think it's a little reductionist to suggest that cats caused World War II

Yep, truly staggering implications...first heard about this on a Radio 4 documentary and insissted on telling everyone all about it.

nathan28 wrote:i tend to think it's a little reductionist to suggest that cats caused World War II

But who really won?



Seriously, 4B, thanks for this. Holy fucker balls is right.

brainpanhandler wrote:None of the articles seem to mention the exact mechanism by which T. Gondii effects the amygdala and thereby behavior, but as I said I read throught he articles pretty quickly and may have missed it. Is the exact mechanism known?

I don't know about the exact mechanism, your google search is as good as mine. It seems like toxoplasma research is in its infancy. Total speculation, but maybe Bonomo was looking for a mechanism? "Laurent was working on *how* the toxoplasmosis parasite attacks its hosts." Here's a NY Times article that explains more of the nitty gritty processes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/20/scien ... nd&emc=rss

As for the implications... only the horrifying ones stand out in my mind. The only positive implication I can imagine is that we might gain a deeper understanding of how our brains work by studying the mechanism by which T.Gondii so precisely effects behavior.

Relax and think about this implication: If toxoplasma has been influencing up to half of all humans to a degree all this time, that necessarily means it's partially responsible for a lot of the best and most inspiring behavior in human history.

Even though it's not supposed to affect the vast majority of those infected, let's assume for shits and giggles that it does in some way, let's even assume that it's infecting me right now, just like it does a rodent...how might that be manifested? Perhaps by disabling what would ordinarily be a fear of exploring dangerous truths, making me even somewhat attracted to exploring dangerous corners where the elite's pet cat licks its paws? Toxoplasma may not just be benign, it may also be liberating.

But yeah, the horrific implications are troubling. One that occurs to me involves the amygdala, and how the spooky professor who taught the conspiracy class I took in 2006 was fixated on amygdala damage as an explanation for bad behavior, and how his first class wasn't a lecture but just a viewing of the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and how he was the chief neuropsychiatrist at Gitmo once upon a time and clearly has some experience with nasty experiments. I think I might have to take that class again, lol, but next time in a less reserved way.

Also troubling: The age-old toxoplasma might have beneficial consequences, but there's reportedly a new strain, Type X, and who knows about that.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/lif ... phins.html

Is there any evidence of the evolutionary past of this pathogen? Like how long it has been around? I ask because I find it intriguing that T. Gondii has such an exclusive relationship with felines and their food, rats being among the most common food of felines. Rats as we all know are favored laboratory test subjects for a variety of sound reasons.

All indications are that it's been around (and within) forever.

Yup. Ive read of this some years ago in some science journal. Gave me goosebumps Also read Wombats nice article. Thanks for the data dump, Ill wade through it again...

But really, parasites are one of the most prolific groups of beings. And bloody nasty ones most of the time. If you want to sleep badly at night, start searching Wikip for some parasite stories.... I know of a couple people who went to South America, and got infested with one parasite that lives in ponds and water, and can penetrate the skin of the bottom of your feet when you step in a pond, or swim. Then they swim around yer body, and lay eggs in different places. One hopes that they dont do this in any vital region, like close to major nerves, eyes, or brain... To get rid of them takes a couple of years of drugs.

Males a person wonder if there's any connection to the studies of agrobacterium:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewt ... obacterium

Penguin wrote:But really, parasites are one of the most prolific groups of beings. And bloody nasty ones most of the time. If you want to sleep badly at night, start searching Wikip for some parasite stories.... I know of a couple people who went to South America, and got infested with one parasite that lives in ponds and water, and can penetrate the skin of the bottom of your feet when you step in a pond, or swim. Then they swim around yer body, and lay eggs in different places. One hopes that they dont do this in any vital region, like close to major nerves, eyes, or brain... To get rid of them takes a couple of years of drugs.

I work with a girl who had the exact same thing happen to her and a BF.

Reason #497 why I rarely travel.

O wonderful! O wonderful! O wonderful!
I am food! I am food! I am food!
I eat food! I eat food! I eat food!
My name never dies, never dies, never dies!
I was born first in the first of the worlds, earlier than the gods, in the belly of what has no death!
Whoever gives me away has helped me the most!
I, who am food, eat the eater of food!
I have overcome this world!

He who knows this shines like the sun.
Such are the laws of the mystery!
- Taittiriya Upanishad (book 3, lesson 10)

"holy fucker balls"


I just wanted to say the phrase, cause I like it....(grin)

Wikipedia says cysts in the brain are thought to cause low-grade encephalitis, affecting neurotransmitters and causing the symptoms.

Even though it's not supposed to affect the vast majority of those infected, let's assume for shits and giggles that it does in some way, let's even assume that it's infecting me right now, just like it does a rodent...how might that be manifested? Perhaps by disabling what would ordinarily be a fear of exploring dangerous truths, making me even somewhat attracted to exploring dangerous corners where the elite's pet cat licks its paws? Toxoplasma may not just be benign, it may also be liberating.

Maybe so, but I still don't like the idea of a pathogen having a direct effect on the central nervous system and thereby producing specific, desirable-for-the-parasite behavior, unbeknownst to the host. I don't like it.

My first thought goes to the idea of engineering a pathogen that rather than reducing fear of something specific, enhances the fear of something specific. One of the fascinating things about this research is the specificty of the effect on the rats. The rats showed normal fear responses to other stimuli. Only the cat urine became attractive to them rather than eliciting a normal fear response.

I realize we're crawling with critters, jillions of em. Some of them beneficial. Some of them necessary. I still don't like to think about it too much.

Reading these articles this morning reminded me of this story:

Tiny specks of misery, both vile and useful

50% of our dna is derived from viral sources.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kndX3tVxCt8

"Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'." -- Mark Twain

Maybe so, but I still don't like the idea of a pathogen having a direct effect on the central nervous system and thereby producing specific, desirable-for-the-parasite behavior, unbeknownst to the host. I don't like it.

I don't like it, either! I would prefer that the possibility did not exist. But it does, and if you choose to think about it then the littlest you owe yourself is to consider all the implications, negative and positive, and not just fixate on the most frightening aspects.

My first thought goes to the idea of engineering a pathogen that rather than reducing fear of something specific, enhances the fear of something specific. One of the fascinating things about this research is the specificty of the effect on the rats. The rats showed normal fear responses to other stimuli. Only the cat urine became attractive to them rather than eliciting a normal fear response.

Yup, that's definitely one of the disturbing implications: The potential for engineering a pathogen or nanobot/etc similar to toxoplasma, for weaponizing toxoplasma like other pathogens have been, or for discovering a way to influence us at a distance by bypassing our mental defenses and wooing the taxoplasma directly like a chemical pied piper, and the potential of whatever could be done using toxoplasma affecting us in a very specific way while leaving the rest of our functions normal. But like I said, don't forget to then consider the positive implications. In my opinion, the existence of toxoplasma is the creepiest fucking thing ever. But it can't possibly be all bad, no matter how bad it might be.