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nathan28 wrote:Podcast on Jonestown [mp3]

it's very interesting, and very dark... i think the MK-ULTRA connection is entirely specualtive, but as the guys in the above podcast point out, Jonestown does fulfill the original intent of the CIA mind-control programs, to see if it is possible to have someone to act against their self-preservation... but i think any student of history can see plenty of examples of that happening so i wonder if we really needed to spend that much tax money to learn the obvious

nathan28 wrote:i think the MK-ULTRA connection is entirely specualtive, but as the guys in the above podcast point out, Jonestown does fulfill the original intent of the CIA mind-control programs, to see if it is possible to have someone to act against their self-preservation...

At the time of his death, Leo Ryan’s spotlight was trained on one of the darkest corners of the American intelligence establishment—psychiatric “mind-control” experiments, possibly combined with illegal domestic operations. His probe included tests performed at a Vacaville, California, state hospital (above), reportedly involving Donald (known as “Cinque”, top) DeFreeze, a central figure in the 1974 kidnapping of Patricia Hearst. A month before Ryan’s murder, Jack Anderson (right) published a column entitled “CIA May Have Inspired Cinque,” exposing the secret experiments, with Ryan or his committee the most likely source of the information.

nathan28 wrote:Podcast on Jonestown [mp3]

it's very interesting, and very dark... i think the MK-ULTRA connection is entirely specualtive, but as the guys in the above podcast point out, Jonestown does fulfill the original intent of the CIA mind-control programs, to see if it is possible to have someone to act against their self-preservation... but i think any student of history can see plenty of examples of that happening so i wonder if we really needed to spend that much tax money to learn the obvious

NEW YORK (Hollywood Reporter) - MSNBC wants to become more of a player in feature-length documentaries.

The cable news channel has created MSNBC Films, which will serve as a financing instrument for projects that fall within its purview.

It already commissions documentary-style programming like its "Lockup" series and also has bought TV rights to a select number of theatrical documentaries, such as Morgan Spurlock's "Super Size Me." But this move will increase the number of feature-length documentaries on the network from about three per year to as many as six.

...

By rejecting the suicide explanation, the conspiracists attempt to seek justice for the victims. In their dualistic worldview, which pits the evil forces of government conspirators such as the CIA or the Green Berets, against the forces of good embodied in individual American citizens, calling the deaths "suicide" allows the conspirators to get away with murder. They read Jonestown as a political rather than a religious event. They see it as a battle between great secular forces of good and evil, with evil embodied in either the CIA, Nazis, racists, or megalomaniacs. The religious aspects of the group fade away in the face of this explanation. (On the contrary, the religious aspects are subsumed under the same rubric as the nefarious mind control aspects of Jonestown and by extension all religion, having it's origins within a founding cult, is suspect as a form of mind control. It's most emphatically not an either/or proposition.)

Conspiracy theories, for all their inherent secrecy and implicit danger, are nonetheless comforting because they eliminate uncertainty and moral ambiguity. (Uh, no) It is far more troubling to think that people had practiced suicide and then went through with it, believing that they were doing something noble and right, than it is to think that malign powers did away with them for nefarious purposes. It is far more disturbing to imagine that sane and even idealistic people more or less willingly killed their children, than to imagine that some supra-personal power of darkness killed them. (Huh? It is far more disturbing to imagine that sane and even idealistic people could be broken down to such an extent as to override their parenting instincts and they could be induced to murder their own children than to imagine that they "more or less willingly killed their children". I don't know what a power of darkness has to do with it.)Thus conspiracy theories reassure us that what appears wrong or out-of-kilter in the world has a cause outside of individual or collective human weakness and vulnerability. In other words, the moral order, though jeopardized by conspirators, remains in effect. (I sort of get this, but this tendency is by no means limited to "conspiracy theorists". And I could argue that there are those that have conspired to shape human consciousness in this way)

If we believe that ordinary decent people did extraordinary acts of "evil," then the moral order is demolished. It seems preferable to believe in evil in the guise of conspirators, than in evil in the guise of our neighbors. Given the profound questions raised by the events themselves, conspiracy theories about Jonestown will undoubtedly continue to proliferate, because they attempt to restore morality and order to a chaotic and immoral world.
(or maybe conspiracy theories will continue to proliferate because sacharine cartoon ethics aren't enough to begin to cover the taste of whatever awful nightmare was being played out in Jonestown.)

Col. Quisp wrote:Were they poisoning themselves or were they shot? We'll never know for sure. they didn't exhibit the signs of having gone through cyanide poisoning, according to one of those links above. They appeared to have been dragged into position.

But then, we hear the recording of Jones telling the people to drink. It's one of the weirdest mass murders of all time, if not the weirdest. It feels like the truth keeps shifting out of our reach.

cptmarginal wrote:

Col. Quisp wrote:Were they poisoning themselves or were they shot? We'll never know for sure. they didn't exhibit the signs of having gone through cyanide poisoning, according to one of those links above. They appeared to have been dragged into position.

But then, we hear the recording of Jones telling the people to drink. It's one of the weirdest mass murders of all time, if not the weirdest. It feels like the truth keeps shifting out of our reach.

Apparently there were fresh needle marks on a large number of victims. This is sometimes given as evidence that many of the people were poisoned forcefully and later positioned, but considering what we know about the daily medical regimen the people were subjected to it would not seem to be much of a surprise to find such marks. As you say, it's a mystery.

I was creeped out by Jim Jones's laugh they played on those tapes though. It sounded like a monkey.

JONESTOWN, Guyana (CNN) -- Cyanide was being bought and shipped to the Rev. Jim Jones' jungle compound in South America for at least two years before 909 Americans died there at the command of their cult leader, CNN has learned.

Sources in Guyana said the Jonestown camp began obtaining shipments of cyanide -- about a quarter to a half-pound of the deadly poison each month -- as early as 1976, well before most of Jones' followers made the move there.

CNN's Soledad O'Brien tells the story of the last hours of Jonestown -- and the few who did survive out of desperation and daring -- as CNN Presents "Escape from Jonestown."

Jones led his followers to their death after his gunmen killed a visiting congressman, Rep. Leo Ryan, and four others, including an NBC News correspondent and his cameraman, on November 18, 1978.

Jones told the members of his Peoples Temple church that the Guyanese Army would invade their settlement after the murders. He demanded that parents kill their children first, then take their own lives, rather than face the authorities because of what Jones had done.

Of the 909 who died, 303 were children -- from teens to toddlers. Many were killed by Jones' loyalists, who used syringes to squirt cyanide down their throats.

CNN was told Jones obtained a jeweler's license to buy cyanide. The chemical can be used to clean gold. But there was no jeweler's operation in Jonestown.

Six months before Ryan arrived on a one-man investigative mission, the settlement's doctor wrote in a memo to Jones:

"Cyanide is one of the most rapidly acting poisons. ... I would like to give about two grams to a large pig to see how effective our batch is."

The purchases are "strong evidence that the Rev. Jim Jones had been plotting the death of his followers long before that fateful day," O'Brien reports.

Ryan, the only U.S. representative assassinated in office, was shot at a nearby airstrip as he tried to leave with 15 church members who told him Jones was holding people captive in the remote jungle encampment.

"That was literally a jungle prison," said Gerald Parks, whose wife, Patricia, was shot to death in the airport attack. How did he escape death? »

Four other members of his family survived, including two young daughters who were lost in the jungle for three days after running away from the airstrip to hide from the killers. Woman returns to scene for first time »

"It was a dictatorship," said Vernon Gosney, who was badly wounded in the airport shootings. "It was supposed to be socialism, but it really was fascism."

Jones was a phony faith healer who moved his Indiana church to northern California in the mid-'60s in search of a safe place to survive the possibility of nuclear warfare. In the mid-'70s, when a magazine raised questions about church beatings and financial abuses, Jones moved his flock to Guyana, in South America, to the jungle settlement he called his "beautiful promised land."

"It was a slave camp run by a madman," said Leslie Wilson, a young mother then only 21, who began walking away from Jonestown early on the day that ended in the suicides and murder.

She and 10 others trudged almost 30 miles through the jungle to another town. Wilson carried her 3-year-old son on her back. "It was a freedom walk," she said. "It was a walk to freedom."

Tim Carter, a Jones aide, stayed in the camp almost to the end and saw his wife and his 1-year-old son die before he was sent away on an errand.

Authorities made him return two days later to help identify bodies. Carter saw Jones lying with a bullet hole in the side of his head.

"I remember thinking the son of a bitch didn't even die the way everybody else died," Carter said.