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Fuck Doctors

Postby Username » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:17 am

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Online Journal

FDA panel favors giving Seroquel, Zyprexa and Geodon to kids
By Martha Rosenberg
Online Journal Contributing Writer
Jun 15, 2009

ADELPHI, Md. -- Even as a US district court prepares 6,000 Seroquel lawsuits for trial, Eli Lilly pays $1.42 billion for illegal Zyrexa marketing and 30 states sue over heisted Medicaid funds for atypical antipsychotics, an FDA advisory panel has recommended approval of Seroquel, Zyrexa and Geodon for children.

After two days of hearings, the FDA Psychopharmacologic Drugs Advisory Committee voted to recommend approval of AstraZeneca’s Seroquel (quetiapine) for the acute treatment of schizophrenia in adolescents 13-17, acute treatment of bipolar mania in children 10-12 and adolescents 13-17; Pfizer’s Geodon (ziprasidone) for the acute treatment of manic or mixed episodes associated with bipolar disorder, with or without psychotic features in children and adolescents ages 10-17; and Eli Lilly’s Zyprexa (olanzapine) for the acute treatment of manic or mixed episodes associated with bipolar I disorder and acute treatment of schizophrenia in adolescents.

Most people know pharma’s blockbuster atypical antipsychotics Seroquel, Zyprexa and Geodon, off label marketed to kids, the elderly, the uncategorizable and the suggestible -- are you sure you don’t have racing thoughts? ask ads -- correlate with weight gain, diabetes and metabolic derangement.

But who knew until the hearings that Seroquel also causes an extra seven or eight heartbeats a minute in children? Possibly for as long as they take it? With no studies to show the long term effect? Or the safety of drugs to treat the effect? And no theory as to why?

Who knew Seroquel could cause cataracts?

Who knew Geodon could cause a prolonged QT interval also known as “sudden death.”

Who knew the atypicals, along with tremor and muscle rigidity, could cause the permanent and stigmatizing tardive dyskinesia they were developed to prevent? Hello?

Of course, AstraZeneca doctor Liza O’Dowd did her best during her presentation to sail through the negatives, assuring the panel that Seroquel’s blood pressure, weight, glucose and prolactin issues could be “controlled and monitored” and that they “didn’t lead to discontinuation of the study” (let’s hope not when the trial was three weeks.)

But she was less forthcoming when discussing the five child suicides seen during trials, a slide she only produced in response to panel questions.

AstraZeneca’s Ihor Rak, MD, did his best to dismiss cataract problems as “poor hygiene, nutrition and accidents” seen with schizophrenics, but had no ready answer when panelist member Benedetto Vitiello, MD, asked why not, then, remove instructions to examine patient lenses from the prescribing information.

AstraZeneca presenter Lili Kopala, MD, was certain the study suicides stemmed from patients who were “still on the recovery curve,” but when panelist Christopher Granger, MD, challenged her, she changed her mind and said, “they may be random.”

And panelists had other questions.

Not being trained psychiatrists, how did you make the differential diagnosis of bipolar for your studies? asked panelist Kenneth Towbin, MD. How do you know irritability, anxiety or aggression don’t denote other disorders? How could a Seroquel study in which children with mania are kept on stimulants be scientifically valid -- or ethical?

Children are often on “cocktails of seven or eight medications,” agreed Rochelle Caplan, MD, and “once we get them off,” they might just have a learning disability.

Worse than problems diagnosing pediatric bipolar or schizophrenia -- 3,000 suspected childhood schizophrenia cases yielded only 110 actual cases in one study said panelist Nitin Gogtay, MD -- and worse than the lack of “real world” and mixed medicine “cocktail” studies was the brevity of the studies themselves, said panelists.

How can three- and six-week studies suggest safety for maintenance treatment of schizophrenia and bipolar disorders which lasts decades? “We know they won’t stop [using the medications] at the acute phase,” said Towbin.

Panelist Granger confessed to “real discomfort” approving drugs which “generat[e] metabolic syndrome in adolescents in a very short period of time” for “indefinite use” on the basis of three- or six-week trials. “Hopefully we’re not exposing someone for decades,” agreed fellow cardiologist Edward Pritchett, MD.

But Thomas Laughren, MD, FDA’s director of psychiatric drugs was more upbeat. Not only was he sure pediatric safety could be extrapolated from adult studies -- promising to include the clinical leap on labels -- he didn’t want to be derailed over the two children who perversely died from stroke and cardiopulmonary failure in Geodon studies, either.

There’s “hazard in drawing too much from subsetting the data,” said Laughren. Phillip Chappell, MD, of Pfizer thanked him.

Frank Greenway, MD, an endocrine specialist on the panel, was also upbeat, observing prolactin elevation from the atypicals was less than a “prolactin secreting tumor.” Whew.

Still the elephant in the room at the proceedings was why drugs that are already available off-label need FDA approval at all -- and why it’s urgent that kids showing symptoms be treated now.

(One pharma doctor claimed gray matter shrinks every time someone is “psychotic” but others admitted early treatment has no effect on the course of the diseases.)

The answer of course was in the other elephant in the room -- the wall of 40 pharma-funded doctors sitting at attention, outnumbering FDA representatives two to one and unabashedly referred as “sponsors.” (Though their Medicaid streams imply that’s backwards.)

It’s the sponsors who exhort doctors -- and parents -- to subject kids to increased heartbeats, sudden death, metabolic syndrome, tardive dyskinesia, cataracts, stroke and suicidal side effects for diseases they may not even have.

Certainly that’s how two mothers who testified during the open public hearings felt.

Liza Ortiz of Austin, Texas, lost her 13-year-old son to Seroquel toxicity earlier this year. “His hands twisted in ways I never thought possible in the I.C.U.,” she said.

Mary Kitchens of Bandera, Texas, said her son suffers from crossed eyes, nightmares, trembling, neutropenia, hypothyroidism, tachycardia, dyskinesia and cogwheeling since Seroquel treatment.

“AstraZeneca marketed this to my child in 2003,” she said holding the original Seroquel package for the panel to see. “And now they want your seal of approval.”

Martha Rosenberg is a Chicago columnist/cartoonist who writes about public health. She may be reached at martharosenberg@sbcglobal.net.

Copyright © 1998-2007 Online Journal



I may change the title of this thread later on, but damn I hate doctors.

I can't see how an honorable person, how anyone with the tiniest shread of decency, could possibly be affiliated with this level of corruption, greed and arrogance.

What a bunch of self-serving, soulless scumbags.

There, I said it.
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Postby Searcher08 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:51 am

How DARE you even THINK of criticising doctors? They are noble relievers of human suffering who always know more than the rest of us - about everything in fact.

Do you KNOW how HARD it is for them to have to put up with the likes of you, who questions their naturally earned authority? These are people who have EARNED the right to decide who lives and who dies. Do YOU have that right? They truly are GODS amongst men.

The close relationship between the heroic developers of life-saving drugs, the Life Sciences companies, and our beloved doctors is a natural , wholesome relationship. Shame upon anyone who thinks ill of it. It is important for our doctors to be able to relax and unwind after their stressful jobs and an expenses paid conference in Bermuda for all the family fits the bill.

Frankly, anyone who speaks out against our doctors needs to be , perhaps should be ....make that WILL BE used as testing subjects for AntinFoilatium, the new anti-conspiracy psychosis drug.

I have sourced all the above statements from double blinded randomized clinical trials using an evidence based medicine protocol.

WE are RIGHT and
YOU are WRONG.

ALWAYS.

In closing, I would just like to say, speaking frankly, on behalf of doctors in the US and UK, just shut the fuck up and take the pills you scum.

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Postby Asta » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:04 am

Doctors have become not much more than drug pushers.
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Postby tal » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:04 am

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Is FDA Bipolar or Complicit in Legitimizing Illegal Marketing?
Monday, 08 June 2009

The FDA's expanded marketing approval process for antipsychotics, highly toxic drugs, is unaffected by evidence uncovered by the US Justice Department showing that the studies submitted by drug manufacturers were often flawed, if not fraudulent. FDA officials are ignoring the real world tragedies--drug-induced deaths of children. Unfortunately for the children, child psychiatrists in particular are noted for irresponsibly prescribing high doses of the most toxic drugs in pharmacopoeia for young children who do not have a valid medical condition, much less a life-threatening illness that would justify the magnitude and scope of risks posed by these drugs, singly and in untested combinations.

The latest child casualty reported by the press, is four-year-old, Destiny Hager, who was prescribed two highly toxic antipsychotic drugs--quetiapine (Seroquel) and ziprasidone (Geodon)--since age three.

The Topeca Capital Journal reports that an X-ray revealed the child's colon was blocked - a known side effect of Seroquel and Geodon.
An autopsy confirmed that the child died of fecal impaction and had "antipsychotic drugs present in concentrations considered therapeutic in adults." Destiny Hager weighed 38 lbs.

This week, on June 9-10, an FDA advisory panel will be considering applications for expanded approval of highly toxic antipsychotics for use in children aged 10 to 17. The drugs under consideration are: Seroquel (AstraZeneca), Zyprexa (Eli Lilly) and Geodon (Pfizer).

Rather than focus on protecting children's safety, FDA officials are doing their utmost to legitimize irresponsible, off-label prescribing of exceedingly toxic antipsychotics for children--thereby ensuring that far greater numbers of children will be victimized and die.

FDA has already approved Johnson & Johnson's antipsychotic Risperdal for use as a chemical restraint to curb aggression in autistic children without a public hearing--and despite the J & J's withdrawal of its application in the UK, after the British panel required rigorous medical monitoring of children prescribed risperdone (Risperdal). FDA officials have also approved
(aripiprazole) (Abilify), manufactured by Otsuka Pharmaceutical and Bristol-Myers Squibb (BMS) to treat manic and mixed episodes associated with bipolar I disorder in pediatric patients ages 10-17.

It should be underscored that the diagnoses, schizophrenia and bipolar in children are highly controversial--indeed, pediatric bipolar is not recognized elsewhere in the world and there is evidence uncovered during litigation by the US Attorney strongly suggesting that prominent US academic child psychiatrists promoted both the diagnoses and antipsychotic drugs while receiving considerable cash payments from these drugs' manufacturers.

[Below, an EXCELLENT Op Ed in NEWS BLAZE cites some of the recently uncovered corrupt practices that should have precluded FDA from even considering expanding market approval for these drugs.]

Most troubling are confirmatory preliminary scientific findings about the rapid onset of severe hazards these drugs pose for children. Alarmed by their findings, researchers reported them at the American Psychiatric Association meeting (below)

Beyond acute weight gain, the researchers reported: "Atypical Antipsychotics Linked to Rapid, Adverse Metabolic Changes in Children." In just 12 weeks "the entire group of children exposed to one of the antipsychotic drugs exhibit "striking changes in [metabolic] parameters." "These preliminary results suggest that weight gain is associated with a significant decrease in insulin sensitivity."

Reuters and The Wall Street Journal quote from a May 8 memo to the advisory committee by Dr. Thomas Laughren, the agency's director of the FDA's psychiatric product division: "We generally are in agreement that the
sponsors have provided adequate support to suggest effectiveness."

While acknowledging that the risks posed by these drugs are "of particular concern in pediatric patients because of the life-long nature of these disorders." Dr. Laughren couched his directive to the advisory committee in "forked tongue" fashion acknowledging concern for safety issues, but hedging on the lack of proof of efficacy. He retreated from evidence for concern by claiming the risks for children appeared "to be qualitatively similar to those observed" with adults.

If approved, these exceedingly toxic drugs will be widely prescribed for children whose misbehavior will condemn them to the drugs' irreversible hazards.

Question: What are FDA's medical, scientific, or moral standards for considering approval of demonstrably toxic drugs for use in otherwise physically healthy children who would be irreparably harmed by these drugs?

A concern not acknowledged by the FDA nor ever considered by psychopharmacologic advisory panels is the fact that there is a cumulative incremental danger posed by these drugs' multiple severe, adverse, disabling, life-shortening health hazards--including diabetes, metabolic syndrome, and cardiovascular disease and sudden death.

The negative risk / benefit ratio is acknowledged by Dr.Thomas Insel, Director of the National Institute of Mental Health, who recommends precaution:
"With current antipsychotics you risk either metabolic side effects or neurological side effects. With current antipsychotics you risk either metabolic side effects or neurological side effects. Sometimes these potentially serious risks are worth the benefit, but in children the balance needs to favor minimizing risks."

Question: What are FDA's medical, scientific, or moral standards (if any) for considering approval of demonstrably toxic drugs whose hazards are disabling and life-shortening, for use in otherwise physically healthy children who would be irreparably harmed ?


Posted by Vera Hassner Sharav


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Postby beeline » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:27 am

"Fuck Doctors" is a rather sweeping thread title, no?

I mean, personally, I have a lot to be thankful for regarding doctors.

How about "Fuck Drug-Pushing Doctors" of "Fuck Some Doctors"?
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Postby lightningBugout » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:27 pm

The strongest critics of using antipsychotic meds for kids that I know are all doctors.

Then there is the one who is taking care of my aunt who needs surgery for a deadly brain aneurysm.

Then there's the army of holistic, complementary and naturopathic doctors who are pretty much in the midst of leading a revolution towards preventative medicine.

Not to mention Doctor No, Doctor Evil, Doctor J, Doctor and the Medics, Doc Holliday, Doctor Octopus but not Doctor Phil - never Doctor Phil.
Last edited by lightningBugout on Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What's robbing a bank compared with founding a bank?" Bertolt Brecht
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Postby professorpan » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:13 pm

Fuck the sun. I'm tired of its incessant shining in my eyes and burning my skin with its invisible, cancerous rays.
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Postby Searcher08 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:02 pm

professorpan wrote:Fuck the sun. I'm tired of its incessant shining in my eyes and burning my skin with its invisible, cancerous rays.


How DARE you even THINK to COMPARE the shining intellect of our societies purveyors of mass mad-ecine with a big blob of gaseous hydrogen!
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Postby norton ash » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:02 pm

I've been prescribed all of those drugs (given samples from a huge abundant stockpile at my shrink's) "off menu" for anxiety and as a sleep aid. They sucked, and screwed up my thinking and emotional balance. They're dirty, side-effects-wise as well.

They should not be given to kids.

Reminds my of all the folks prescribed Zyban to quit smoking. That stuff makes many people feel like they're going nuts, causes temper outbursts and crying jags.

Fuck big pharma, and fuck credulous doctors. Although I know they ARE naturally tempted to experiment when something new appears.

BTW, the only med I've successfully used for years now is cannabis.
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Postby cptmarginal » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:03 pm

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Postby Penguin » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:03 pm

norton ash wrote:I've been prescribed all of those drugs (given samples from a huge abundant stockpile at my shrink's) "off menu" for anxiety and as a sleep aid. They sucked, and screwed up my thinking and emotional balance. They're dirty, side-effects-wise as well.

They should not be given to kids.

Reminds my of all the folks prescribed Zyban to quit smoking. That stuff makes many people feel like they're going nuts, causes temper outbursts and crying jags.

Fuck big pharma, and fuck credulous doctors. Although I know they ARE naturally tempted to experiment when something new appears.

BTW, the only med I've successfully used for years now is cannabis.


One guy I know stopped Zyban (for quitting smoking) after nearly hitting his girlfriend of many years for the first time ever. He has never before been violent, said he just "snapped off" into a rage. Got so scared he immediately stopped taking em. Girlfriend said he acted like another person while on them.

Btw yep. My cannabis medicine & research thread in Data Dump : http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=23504

Dr. Jah -

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(not an endorsement, even more not paid for)

Some doctors are great. I even have a couple of those as friends.
But the pharma industry needs a serious shaggin.
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Postby lightningBugout » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:39 pm

I took a low dose of seroquel as a sleep aid for awhile. No side effects and a great drug for sleep (no 'hangover') if properly monitored and used at low dosage. I also took Wellbutrin during that period, which is Zyban at a larger dosage. No side effects. Definitely made cigarettes less pleasurable.

I find the anecdotal stuff about pharma side effects pretty tough to swallow. What we accept, in the West, as a normal (control) lifestyle is insane. Including but not limited to: pesticides in our food, non-organic fruit, vegetables, meat, fish and dairy not resembling those foods in their natural form/habitat - totally leeched of minerals and vitamins, inactivity, Consumer OCD (want, want, want, buy - repeat) as a normal psychological framework, not to mention video games and television, etc.

I would guess that upwards of 75% of US citizens are highly deficient in various vitamins and minerals, overweight, are getting inadequate exercise and have buildups of, at the very least, heavy metals in their body (high blood lead, for example correlates with 'violent' behavior and aggression.

Not at all a defender of these drugs - I think they should be somewhere close to the last line of defense, but I think you have to accept the whole picture - many many stimuli are already making us crazy, combined these things are certainly just as powerful as any psychotropic drug. And, as a result, its impossible to form a proper control group for normal emotional and psychological life.

ps. I would recommend weed as the number one therapeutic substance for dealing with dissociation. It is very powerful stuff for that cause. Actually, too powerful if you are not ready to integrate. Thought it was interesting that, in Trance Formation, weed was the one drug that was expressly forbidden for Cathy O Brien by her handlers.
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Postby Penguin » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:02 am

lightningBugout:
The only thing is, they are not just anecdotal stories. Theyre backed by even the pharma corps own research - just like the story above shows..

Otherwise, what you said is right. Normal normal, Im sure happy Im not normal. Or mebbe I am, but not the normal normal ;)
And Ive been on the natural medication for over a decade now, and dont want to handle the modern insanity without it. It works for me.
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Postby lightningBugout » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:01 am

Penguin wrote:lightningBugout:
The only thing is, they are not just anecdotal stories. Theyre backed by even the pharma corps own research - just like the story above shows..

Otherwise, what you said is right. Normal normal, Im sure happy Im not normal. Or mebbe I am, but not the normal normal ;)
And Ive been on the natural medication for over a decade now, and dont want to handle the modern insanity without it. It works for me.


Didn't mean to sound dismissive if I did. My point is that big pharma has no way to find a meaningful control group for discerning all but the most coarse of side-effects. You can take an organism that's a shaky, barely static constellation of dis-ease and maladjustment and throw in yet another variable and it may react precisely because its ripe to because of all those variables mentioned above.
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Postby Penguin » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:34 am

You got that right. Sorry, that point kind of eluded me - but its a myopia for us all too... Think of animal tests, used widely in medical research...Think about what kind of stress the test animals are under, and if their life is anything resembling their natural life, and what kind of stress they are under as they are used as research subjects....

Much of our medical research data from animal tests may not reflect reality, except of that of fearful stressed out animals. It will skew any and all results gained thereof, however.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LmKCN-7kluYC

The biology of animal stress By Gary P. Moberg, Joy A. Mench

The subjects of stress and animal welfare are currently attracting immense interest. The purpose of this book is to bring together a range of perspectives from biomedical research (including human health and animal models of human stress) on stress and welfare, and to assess new approaches to conceptualising and alleviating stress. Contributors include leading authorities from North America, Europe and Australia.

ps. I would recommend weed as the number one therapeutic substance for dealing with dissociation. It is very powerful stuff for that cause.


Seconded...Everything matters more associated.
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