P-Tech: The Wizard Behind the 9/11 Curtain.

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Postby Nordic » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:54 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
Nordic wrote:I just can't put my finger on it, but this whole "ptech had something to do with 9/11" thing just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

It feels like a big diversion, a red herring, a wild goose chase.

I could be 100% wrong, it's just my intuition telling me this.



PTECH might not have anything to do with 9/11 but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at.



I wasn't suggesting that. If it seemed I did, I didn't communicate clearly.

I've always people refer to the PTech thing as if they believe it's the "Rosetta Stone" of 9/11. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I just think it's a wild goose chase as far as that goes, but still very interesting.
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:59 pm

compared2what? wrote:Well. It's always nice to see littlegreenfootballs and a magazine owned by the Reverend Sun-Myung Moon bathing an RI thread with the pure beams of illumination for which they're so rightfully held in high esteem.

But 8bit, you should really take a very serious second look at the state's case against Muntasser. Because they didn't have one. It'd almost be enough to make a person think our government was capable of prosecuting patsies just to rack up a political victory, if we didn't all already know they'd never do that.


For anyone who knows about Al Kifah Refugee Center(Care Intl) and Aafia Siddui(one of the heads of Care who turned out to be a top al Qaeda operative) The circle of intrigue that Ptech, BMI, Care, Yasin al Kadi, Khalid bin Mahfouz, Muslim Brotherhood, etc encompass is of great importance.

The evolution to me is clear. Maktab al-Khadamat spun into al Qaeda in 1988, then in 1989 they created an American branch in Brooklyn and Boston called Al Kifah Refugee Center to "help war orphans" and later finance Bosnian jihad. By 1994 the Brooklyn branch became "Care International" and became part of the family of Ptech related businesses.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.js ... siddiqui_1
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:02 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
compared2what? wrote:Well. It's always nice to see littlegreenfootballs and a magazine owned by the Reverend Sun-Myung Moon bathing an RI thread with the pure beams of illumination for which they're so rightfully held in high esteem.

But 8bit, you should really take a very serious second look at the state's case against Muntasser. Because they didn't have one. It'd almost be enough to make a person think our government was capable of prosecuting patsies just to rack up a political victory, if we didn't all already know they'd never do that.



stop, info is info, from where ever it comes, I hold the belief that reading everything is the key to understanding everything, don't dismiss information of any kind, it is THE way to the truth. I took this kinda shit in the DU dungeon I believe RI is much more open to THE idea that we should avail ourselves to all and not to ignore any facts.

unless I mis understood your critizism?

did you even read the article?


Exactly.

Hey even Fox posts the truth now and then:

World Bank destroyed Albanian village
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490028,00.html

Israel warned US of 9/11, bin Laden denied responsibility, Iran works to help stop al Qaeda
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34440,00.html

Able Danger exposes Atta and others being tracked, Weldon
hints at coverup
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165414,00.html
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:10 pm

Nordic wrote:I just can't put my finger on it, but this whole "ptech had something to do with 9/11" thing just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

It feels like a big diversion, a red herring, a wild goose chase.

I could be 100% wrong, it's just my intuition telling me this.


Don't you find it curious that a company brought to us by one of bin Laden's type financiers(top Saudi elite Yasin al Kadi) and Islamic terror front charities/"relief groups" and the Muslim Brotherhood had its risk management software in most of the US government's most sensitive agency computer systems as of 9/11? That Ptech had their reach in the basement of the FAA headquarters with Mitre?

That even according to the official story, al Qaeda came from the Maktab al Khadamat, which of course created the Al Kifah Refugee Center in Brooklyn and Boston in 1989(Ali Mohamed, Yousef, CIA recruiting, WTC 1993, Blind Sheikh) and that THIS became Care International which was brought into the Ptech business fold.

Are you referring to the 2002 "Operation Greenquest" 'witchhunt', where the heads of Ptech were in all the computer magazines calling it post 9/11 fear mongering?

In my view, everyone got false flagged. The US, al Qaeda, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. Everyone got Punk'd.

It could very well be that the PTB used Ptech as a front or trojan horse without the knowledge of the Ptech folks.

I mean look at all the companies and agencies using Ptech
http://911blogger.com/node/20677

It is unsurprising, then, that numerous government agencies and powerful corporations were hungry for this software in the 1990s. A surprising number of them, including DARPA, the FBI, the Secret Service, the White House, the Navy, the Air Force, the FAA, NATO, IBM, Booz Allen Hamilton and Price Waterhouse Coopers (amongst many others) turned to a small New England-based software firm called Ptech.[11]


and

Ptech on 9/11: The Basement of the FAA

For two years prior to 9/11, Ptech was working to identify potential problems or weaknesses in the FAA's response plans to events like a terrorist hijacking of a plane over U.S. airspace. According to their own business plan for their contract with the FAA, Ptech was given access to every process and system in the FAA dealing with their crisis response protocols. This included examining key systems and infrastructure to analyze the FAA's "network management, network security, configuration management, fault management, performance management, application administration, network management and user desk help operations." [26] In short, Ptech had free reign to examine every FAA system and process for dealing with the exact type of event that was to occur on 9/11. Even more incredible, researcher Indira Singh points out that Ptech was specifically analyzing the potential interoperability problems between the FAA, NORAD and the Pentagon in the event of an emergency over U.S. airspace.[27]

Ptech also presumably had operational information about the systems that the FAA, NORAD and others employed during crisis response exercises like Vigilant Guardian[28], the NORAD exercise that was taking place on 9/11 and included simulations of hijacked jets being flown into New York[29] and hijacked jets being flown into government buildings.[30] This is significant because there is every indication that just such drills were confusing NORAD's response to the real hijackings that were taking place that day. As researcher Michael Ruppert points out, a rogue agent with access to a Ptech backdoor into the FAA's systems could have been deliberately inserting fake blips onto the FAA's radars on 9/11[31]. That scenario would explain the source of the phantom Flight 11 that the FAA reported to NORAD at 9:24 a.m. (well after Flight 11 had already hit the World Trade Center)[32], a report whose source the 9/11 Commission claims they were unable to find.[33]
[/code]


Nordic wrote:
seemslikeadream wrote:
Nordic wrote:I just can't put my finger on it, but this whole "ptech had something to do with 9/11" thing just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

It feels like a big diversion, a red herring, a wild goose chase.

I could be 100% wrong, it's just my intuition telling me this.



PTECH might not have anything to do with 9/11 but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at.



I wasn't suggesting that. If it seemed I did, I didn't communicate clearly.

I've always people refer to the PTech thing as if they believe it's the "Rosetta Stone" of 9/11. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I just think it's a wild goose chase as far as that goes, but still very interesting.


It's certainly a rabbit hole into the more complex arteries of the 9/11 yarn.

A 9/11 rosetta would be the true unabridged story of Mohamed Atta, Nawaf alHazmi, Khalid alMihdhar, Ziad Jarrah, and Ramzi Yousef.
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:26 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
compared2what? wrote:Well. It's always nice to see littlegreenfootballs and a magazine owned by the Reverend Sun-Myung Moon bathing an RI thread with the pure beams of illumination for which they're so rightfully held in high esteem.

But 8bit, you should really take a very serious second look at the state's case against Muntasser. Because they didn't have one. It'd almost be enough to make a person think our government was capable of prosecuting patsies just to rack up a political victory, if we didn't all already know they'd never do that.



stop, info is info, from where ever it comes, I hold the belief that reading everything is the key to understanding everything, don't dismiss information of any kind, it is THE way to the truth. I took this kinda shit in the DU dungeon I believe RI is much more open to THE idea that we should avail ourselves to all and not to ignore any facts.

unless I mis understood your critizism?

did you even read the article?


I forthrightly admit that I did not, madam! I bid you good day! (turns, climbs on to broomstick, flies away.)

Just kidding. I didn't read it before posting, although I think I've read it before at some point.

Anyway. I fully and humbly agree that reading as widely as possible is FUNdamental to the process of arriving at an independent understanding of the subject in question, as long as you're alert to the possible biases of what you're reading and taking them into consideration. And, um...I should have noticed I was being a total beyotch. Because I didn't really intend to criticize anything or anyone, per se. Certainly neither you nor 8bit.

The only totally serious part of the post was the heads-up on U.S. v. Muntasser, et al. I followed it closely, because [long, boring and superfluous explanation deleted here]. And seriously, the prosecution's case wasn't even remotely legitimately supported by the evidence. They didn't have any that justified a big, showy trial dripping with implications of Ee-vil Terrist Activiteez. Those two guys were basically convicted of the total non-crime of being Ay-rab Muslims who were part of the same Ay-rab Muslim community and members of the same Ay-rab Muslim institutions as some extremely shady, very privileged characters of the type that inexplicably always seem to just go on suspiciously acting evil with full impunity all over the world no matter how numerous the enormous glaring indicators that they're big-time criminal conspirators happen to be.

I mean, just read very windy bit of expert testimony from Evan Kohlmann, Teen Counterterrorism Shill For the Far Right. It's totally obvious from how heavily he's relying on ambiguous phrasing and implied guilt-by-association and unstated dark premises that they just had nothing on Muntasser. Not a thing.

The clear and reliable evidence proves only that he took what was obviously a classically non-administrative board position at what was -- as far as anyone could show he knew -- an Islamic relief charity. Because he was a prosperous, observant, sincerely religious man who owned a furniture store in Lynn, MA., living comfortably in the land of opportunity, and -- in summary -- practically the stereotype of the kind of self-made-man who's a reasonably well-to-do, possibly somewhat vain, but basically well-intentioned big donor to what appears to him to be (and to some extent actually was) an above-board religious charity.

To bring it into perspective using what's probably more easily recognizable as a credible and familiar scenario, his position was roughly comparable to that of, let's say, a well-meaning observant Catholic businessman who owns a small chain of car-dealerships in Long Island, and whose dedication the the local Catholic Youth Organization on the board of which he serves as President is due in part to self-satisfied egotism and in part to a real wish to do good in accordance with his belief system. He isn't himself a pedophile, and neither is he enough of a man of the world to think it's seriously possible that people whom he regards as powerful, important and impressive men that it's flattering to him to know personally could ever conceivably be running anything as extremely evil and arcane as a pedophiliac ring out of his backyard. And who therefore doesn't notice that they are.

Because from his POV, crimes like that are committed by deviant monstrous villains you read about in the newspaper, not by real people you drink punch with at the CYO picnic and whose frequent public expressions of outrage and contempt for all those anti-Catholic bigots who assume that everyone who's a power player at the archdiocese-level fucks little boys don't appear suspicious to him. Such a guy is definitely guilty of being foolishly blind to painful realities. Of course. But, you know, most if not all people are to a pretty significant degree. Quite apart from which, it's not actually a crime.

Anyway. If Muntasser did anything more evil than sign an inaccurate tax return, same as 99.9 per cent of everyone else who's signature has ever appeared on a Form 990, there's not any solid evidence of it. His conviction was the result of flat-out anti-Islamic bigotry and the government's need to disguise their total failure to apprehend any of the actual zillionaire funders of terrorist groups whose game they were totally aware of and in some cases complicit with. I don't know where it stands now, but last I checked, it looked like Muntasser was going to serve the year in prison that was merely twice the time that the Nobody Who Ever Goes To Jail For What He Did might get if they existed. After which plans were underway to deport him to Libya where his immediate execution by the government is fully guaranteed if it hasn't happened already. He was a legal resident of the United States who owned a furniture store and supported charitable relief work. He was happily expecting to become a full citizen when he got busted. His conviction was a tragedy and a serious miscarriage of justice. It obstructs rather than illuminates the role played by CARE and/or Ptech in events related to 9/11.

And I personally find it so sad and frightening that what happened to him can and does happen without even the people who are paying attention noticing or understanding it that it makes me weep to think about him. On his behalf, and also because there's really nothing preventing the same thing from happening to any of us, if it isn't obvious what's wrong with accepting the tenuous logic expressed by this deep-thinking righteously anti-Islamic-TERRA and probably well-meaning blogger when she writes, "For a case where Judge Saylor kept reminding the jury "wasn't about terrorism," it obviously was."

Uh-huh. Obviously. Why even waste time and money on judges when the facts are as clear as that? It's just so, so sad and wrong. I wasn't really trying to do anything more than let 8bit know he should look at it more closely, but it was late and I put it much too snippily for that to be very readily apparent. For which lateness might be a reason but can't be an adequate excuse, by my standards. That I have no excuse for totally forgetting to meet. Please accept my apologies for that. Because I really mean them.

And you're totally right wrt the value of indiscriminately reading as much as you're able to read discriminatingly. If that makes sense. Honestly, I was just being cheaply flippant. You know how I am. Sorry. In more ways than one. But not excluding the sincere way.
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Postby Searcher08 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:45 pm

With ptech there are probable Saudi GID connections, a probable Mossad connection, links into defence, avation and finance....

It makes me wonder about a scenario where 9/11 makes sense:



Pentagon / Military Industrial Complex

Needs to get rid of the Black Budget money trail in Pentagon.
Need to sell more things that kill people.
Need to prove some novel military technologies.

Meta Group (Russian, Azeri, Turkish drug cartels ; Halliburton; Bush Crime Syndicate)
Need to re-establish heroin production in Afghanistan.

Silverstein / Blackstone -
Huge insurance scam potential due to asbestos in buildings.

Wall St Crime Syndicates (inc Enron, AIG)-
Need to get rid of SEC investigations / documentation in WTC 7. Potential real time trading scams.

CIA / ISI / GID / Mossad / SIS -
Need more funding, expanded influence base and effect on geopolitical strategy.

Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims
Want to see End Times enacted


Are there any other sect of actors who benefited greatly by 9/11?
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Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:47 pm

compared2what? wrote: Honestly, I was just being cheaply flippant. You know how I am. Sorry. In more ways than one. But not excluding the sincere way.



I am sorry too c2w, in more ways than one. I've just been a little bitchy lately, you know how I am.Image
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:56 pm

8bitagent wrote:
seemslikeadream wrote:
compared2what? wrote:Well. It's always nice to see littlegreenfootballs and a magazine owned by the Reverend Sun-Myung Moon bathing an RI thread with the pure beams of illumination for which they're so rightfully held in high esteem.

But 8bit, you should really take a very serious second look at the state's case against Muntasser. Because they didn't have one. It'd almost be enough to make a person think our government was capable of prosecuting patsies just to rack up a political victory, if we didn't all already know they'd never do that.




stop, info is info, from where ever it comes, I hold the belief that reading everything is the key to understanding everything, don't dismiss information of any kind, it is THE way to the truth. I took this kinda shit in the DU dungeon I believe RI is much more open to THE idea that we should avail ourselves to all and not to ignore any facts.

unless I mis understood your critizism?

did you even read the article?



Exactly.


WRT to what SLAD posted, and my totally empty insult of it, yes. WRT to your citation of the littlegreenfootballs take on Muntasser, very respectfully and equally seriously: No.

For the reasons I first briefly and just now more elaborately gave. The state had no case against those two men. So that article is not info is info is info. It's possibly unwitting disinfo, which is still disinfo is disinfo is disinfo.

I really, truly thought you'd want to know. And I sincerely apologize for having put it in a way that wasn't very likely to be read that way by you. But fwiw, I really did mean that you should take a serious second look at the trial. There's a lot of interesting info there. You'd just never know it by reading the info-free press coverage.
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:01 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
compared2what? wrote: Honestly, I was just being cheaply flippant. You know how I am. Sorry. In more ways than one. But not excluding the sincere way.



I am sorry too c2w, in more ways than one. I've just been a little bitchy lately, you know how I am.Image


I respectfully dissent from any such suggestion and will fight any man in the bar who tries to get away with making it. Straight up.
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:35 pm

8bitagent wrote:
compared2what? wrote:Well. It's always nice to see littlegreenfootballs and a magazine owned by the Reverend Sun-Myung Moon bathing an RI thread with the pure beams of illumination for which they're so rightfully held in high esteem.

But 8bit, you should really take a very serious second look at the state's case against Muntasser. Because they didn't have one. It'd almost be enough to make a person think our government was capable of prosecuting patsies just to rack up a political victory, if we didn't all already know they'd never do that.


For anyone who knows about Al Kifah Refugee Center(Care Intl) and Aafia Siddui(one of the heads of Care who turned out to be a top al Qaeda operative) The circle of intrigue that Ptech, BMI, Care, Yasin al Kadi, Khalid bin Mahfouz, Muslim Brotherhood, etc encompass is of great importance.

The evolution to me is clear. Maktab al-Khadamat spun into al Qaeda in 1988, then in 1989 they created an American branch in Brooklyn and Boston called Al Kifah Refugee Center to "help war orphans" and later finance Bosnian jihad. By 1994 the Brooklyn branch became "Care International" and became part of the family of Ptech related businesses.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.js ... siddiqui_1


Sorry, didn't see this until just now. Yes. That's true. But it's like saying:

"For anyone who knows about the Plymouth Colony (the Mayflower pilgrims) and Myles Standish (ex-English military of gentle descent, who went on to found Duxbury, Massachusetts), the circle of intrigue that The Virginia Company, The Powhatan Confederacy, the Royal House of Stuart, and the persecution of the Christian Separatist movement during the reign of James I that ended up driving the pilgrims out of England to the New World, where they ended up joining forces with Virginia colonists who'd been handpicked by the King, etc encompass is of great importance.

The evolution to me is clear. John Smith, who was due to be hanged for mutiny was saved when the Jamestown settlers opened the King's letter naming him to the governing council, spun the settlement out from the Royalist pressures of the Virginia Company by forging an alliance with the Powhatan in 1607. By the winter of 1621, a Patuxet named Squanto, who'd learned English after being abducted and taken to England by John Smith in 1913 had joined the Plymouth settlers and saved them from starvation. Within a year he became a victim of the genocide that had already killed most of his tribal kin before he returned to North America."

In other words, you lose access to almost all the true cause-and-effect forces that propelled events forward when you think about groups and the people in them in generic terms. You have to know who did what when for what combination of exigent reasons in order to know who's guilty or innocent of what.
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Postby Searcher08 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:13 pm

compared2what? wrote:
In other words, you lose access to almost all the true cause-and-effect forces that propelled events forward when you think about groups and the people in them in generic terms. You have to know who did what when for what combination of exigent reasons in order to know who's guilty or innocent of what.


How do you distinguish a true cause and effect force from a false on in this case? For me a false cause and effect is the correlation between the population growth of aardvarks in Kwa-Zulu Natal province which shows over a period including September 11 2001, a graph identical to the number of Spiderman comics retailed by a hoary Greek descended gentleman of stubby grey beard called Stavros, in a kiosk in the Melbourne suburb of Fitzroy. But nothing like that acausal Magnolia-like linkage is visible here, at least not intentionally on my part.

Surely the question of who did what for when would appear to be a reasonable concise set of parameters in this case, at least potentially?

Surely who did what is much more important than why in this case - many enactors of crimes after all seeing themselves as doing bad things but for the right reasons and all that?
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:54 pm

compared2what? wrote:
To bring it into perspective using what's probably more easily recognizable as a credible and familiar scenario, his position was roughly comparable to that of, let's say, a well-meaning observant Catholic businessman who owns a small chain of car-dealerships in Long Island, and whose dedication the the local Catholic Youth Organization on the board of which he serves as President is due in part to self-satisfied egotism and in part to a real wish to do good in accordance with his belief system

...


His conviction was the result of flat-out anti-Islamic bigotry and the government's need to disguise their total failure to apprehend any of the actual zillionaire funders of terrorist groups whose game they were totally aware of and in some cases complicit with.


...

It obstructs rather than illuminates the role played by CARE and/or Ptech in events related to 9/11.

...

And I personally find it so sad and frightening that what happened to him can and does happen without even the people who are paying attention noticing or understanding it that it makes me weep to think about him.


I totally here your 3 points.

I first became aware of "Logan Furniture" from an Oct 2005 interview Indira Singh did with Michael Corbin on 4 A Closer Look. In the 3 hour interview she mentioned that Ptech related front companies listed their address as the same address where Logan Furniture's main wherehouse was. She almost mentioned another Ptech/Care related business called
"Bannon Information Technologies", where she claimed hidden pages on their website was helping to give instructions to the hijackers(the "steganography" theory) She also mentions the infamous Infocom Dallas case in relation to terror charities.

Now as per your Catholic businessman notion, I agree in that he may very well not be aware of pedophiles or mafia activities.

I find it very plausible that very bad people were secretly using these
as fronts for backdoor activity that they could easily collapse and do away with once the 9/11 attacks concluded; or dovetailed with mob/drug/arms money. And someone like this would simply be a scapegoat caught in the middle.

Here's the thing C2W: The feds going after this man or Ptech's heads opens up a whole can of worms, in that why did the government work with Al Qaeda splinter groups like al Kifah or linked fronts like Ptech?

Because in my conspiratorial mind, Islamic terror groups are just easily controlled lab rats in a much bigger maze that dovetail with drug running-mob-arms procuring groups and rogue shadow elements within agencies across the board.

And the higher operatives dupes(like Mamoun Darkazanli for example or Ali Mohamed) are protected, while guys like this get to be scapegoated.

The reason I brought up the Logan Furniture case is because it brings up
the whole Ptech/Al Kifah-MAK-Care/BMI/Yasin al Kadi connection which to me is points toward the deep state.

Im GLAD John Ashcroft is getting sued for his treatment of Muslims post 9/11, and I cant imagine how many businesses and immigrants were deported/harassed/ruined because of anti Muslim hysteria and policy after 9/11.

Searcher08 wrote:With ptech there are probable Saudi GID connections, a probable Mossad connection, links into defence, avation and finance....

It makes me wonder about a scenario where 9/11 makes sense:



Pentagon / Military Industrial Complex

Needs to get rid of the Black Budget money trail in Pentagon.
Need to sell more things that kill people.
Need to prove some novel military technologies.

Meta Group (Russian, Azeri, Turkish drug cartels ; Halliburton; Bush Crime Syndicate)
Need to re-establish heroin production in Afghanistan.

Silverstein / Blackstone -
Huge insurance scam potential due to asbestos in buildings.

Wall St Crime Syndicates (inc Enron, AIG)-
Need to get rid of SEC investigations / documentation in WTC 7. Potential real time trading scams.

CIA / ISI / GID / Mossad / SIS -
Need more funding, expanded influence base and effect on geopolitical strategy.

Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims
Want to see End Times enacted


Are there any other sect of actors who benefited greatly by 9/11?


Damn, what you just described sounds like BCCI 2.0
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:05 pm

compared2what? wrote:

"For anyone who knows about the Plymouth Colony (the Mayflower pilgrims) and Myles Standish (ex-English military of gentle descent, who went on to found Duxbury, Massachusetts), the circle of intrigue that The Virginia Company, The Powhatan Confederacy, the Royal House of Stuart, and the persecution of the Christian Separatist movement during the reign of James I that ended up driving the pilgrims out of England to the New World, where they ended up joining forces with Virginia colonists who'd been handpicked by the King, etc encompass is of great importance.

The evolution to me is clear. John Smith, who was due to be hanged for mutiny was saved when the Jamestown settlers opened the King's letter naming him to the governing council, spun the settlement out from the Royalist pressures of the Virginia Company by forging an alliance with the Powhatan in 1607. By the winter of 1621, a Patuxet named Squanto, who'd learned English after being abducted and taken to England by John Smith in 1913 had joined the Plymouth settlers and saved them from starvation. Within a year he became a victim of the genocide that had already killed most of his tribal kin before he returned to North America."

In other words, you lose access to almost all the true cause-and-effect forces that propelled events forward when you think about groups and the people in them in generic terms. You have to know who did what when for what combination of exigent reasons in order to know who's guilty or innocent of what.


Again, I absolutely concede your point and can't seem to argue yet another solid analogy by you.

I like what you say here, and it bears repeating:

In other words, you lose access to almost all the true cause-and-effect forces that propelled events forward when you think about groups and the people in them in generic terms. You have to know who did what when for what combination of exigent reasons in order to know who's guilty or innocent of what.


Indeed. And I think that's what bugs many about "9/11 Truth", is the disparate magical connect-the-dots game(that I fully admit to engaging in) which often times misses any real evidentiary chain.

All I know C2W, is we are told that 9/11 boils down to:

Ramzi Yousef in 1992 coming to hook up with the Brooklyn cell and Blind Sheikh, trying to blow up the Twin Towers. He flees to the Philippines, hatches the 9/11 plot and passes the 9/11 plan to Uncle KSM. KSM takes it to bin Laden by 1997, and under the cover of financing mujahadeen in Bosnia and Chechnya; the basic legs of the 9/11 plot get underway and facilitated. Al Qaeda we are told, a completely "independent group" with no state sponsorship, pulled a fast one on us due to "blowback" as every branch of US agencies were incompetent.

This is the official story, and I can't help but think it's much more complex and frightening than that. But again, you're right that we can't just mamby pamby lay out a cocktail of names and places and call that investigation.
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:17 pm

Searcher08 wrote:

Surely who did what is much more important than why in this case - many enactors of crimes after all seeing themselves as doing bad things but for the right reasons and all that?


Here's my question, to the mainstream at large who believe the official story:

Why did the Bush government put a stop into investigations of Saudi financial and material support ties to the 9/11 hijackers?

Why are top original al Qaeda operatives like Ali Mohamed and Mamoun Darkazanli living free and protected?

Why were all efforts pre and post 9/11 to kill bin Laden and Zawahiri stood down?

How come hundreds of times from 1996 til 2001 were FBI agents obstructed from going after bin Laden, al Qaeda financing, or even the hijackers themselves?

There is a sizeable invisible network that directly aided the hijackers inside and outside of America, as well as corporate and financial offshore front companies and presumably mid and high level people who helped facilitate those attacks 8 years ago...attacks which continue to be used to further slaughter.

Now its either that, or everyone was false flagged and played by truly unknown forces....and al Qaeda is just dumb enough to think they acted alone and boast about it.
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Postby compared2what? » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:00 am

Searcher08 wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
In other words, you lose access to almost all the true cause-and-effect forces that propelled events forward when you think about groups and the people in them in generic terms. You have to know who did what when for what combination of exigent reasons in order to know who's guilty or innocent of what.


How do you distinguish a true cause and effect force from a false on in this case? For me a false cause and effect is the correlation between the population growth of aardvarks in Kwa-Zulu Natal province which shows over a period including September 11 2001, a graph identical to the number of Spiderman comics retailed by a hoary Greek descended gentleman of stubby grey beard called Stavros, in a kiosk in the Melbourne suburb of Fitzroy. But nothing like that acausal Magnolia-like linkage is visible here, at least not intentionally on my part.

Surely the question of who did what for when would appear to be a reasonable concise set of parameters in this case, at least potentially?

Surely who did what is much more important than why in this case - many enactors of crimes after all seeing themselves as doing bad things but for the right reasons and all that?


You're right. Of course. But when you don't yet know the who, what and when with any real certainty, you do have to keep asking. For better or worse, you also have to pick some route/any route to travel pretty early in the process, because if you don't, you won't ever get anywhere. That given, if you don't pause at the various stations on your itinerary to ask why they're even there -- which requires you to ask not only who put them there and when, but also whether they're just stations or actually station/bordello combos, or station-shaped potato chips, or...basically you should be asking "What?" without any preconceptions about "Why?" Because they're not really discrete questions.

I mean, yes, form (what) follows function (why). But that doesn't mean every form in a generic class of forms has the same function as every other -- ie, every person who worked at Care Int'l isn't interchangeable with every other. And every prosecution that's obviously about terrorism isn't as obviously about terrorism as every other. Maddening as it definitely fucking is, in reality "what" and "who" aren't necessarily functionally static and unchanging across every point in space and time.

WRT to Care Int'l and PTech specifically, and to US v. Muntasser et al even more specifically, you can't just assume that since Care Int'l = X Link in Criminal Conspiracy, Trial of Care Int'l President = Prosecution of Criminal Conspirator. You have to actually do the math. Not merely out of punctiliousness for it's own sake. And not just checking the "what" by changing the angle of the "why" for the sheer fun of it, either. For example, a whole wealth of background toward which everyone is conspicuously not pointing suddenly pops into view if you spend a while trying to solve: If Muntasser = "what" and "Libyan" = why, then ?????/pakistansudanlockerbiehamasiraniannukesberlusconi x suddenresumptionoffulldiplomaticrelationswithunitedstatesoutoftheblueunderpresidentbushafter35years - nowhasseatonunsecuritycouncilandqadaffiischairmanoftheafricanunionfor2009 = I don't know. That's why I ask why.

It really is pretty fucking amazing that Libya's sitting right there on the Mediterranean where you'd think anyone could see it, but you'd practically never know it was there if the only thing you had to go on was reported sightings. It's like: "Ohhhh! You mean that big blank space where a wrongly convicted Lockerbie suspect with terminal cancer is probably in better shape than Hassan Ghul? You're right. That is called Libya. Petroleum reserves? I have no idea what you're talking about. Move along, nothing to see here."

Um....Does that satisfactorily address your question? I'm not 100 per cent sure I understood what you were asking. So let me know if I didn't.

ON EDIT: Broke up run-on that was spreading the thread. Never saw that one coming, I've gotta say.
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