Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby 23 » Thu May 13, 2010 11:01 am

Iamwhomiam wrote:So, have you ever been suddenly confronted by an individual pointing a firearm at you or needed to defend yourself while under fire?

If you haven't, don't count on your firearm safety training or target practice shooting abilities to keep your panties clean when and if you do.

Wielding a weapon and confronting an armed intruder certainly raises the ante that you will be shot by someone who meant you no physical harm, but only wanted your stuff. Losing your stuff is way better than losing your life. Especially with this new invention called insurance. You should look into that. Very comforting stuff.

Ask your little girl which she would rather lose, her new tv or her dad.

An armed intruder, perhaps a kid who's reasoning abilities you know are screwed up - after all, he's broken into your home - and seeing you armed also puts fear into them and may unnecessarily force a violent exchange in which you may be shot dead or horribly maimed, right in front of your horrified wife and kid, who could now identify him, furthering the risk to them, whom your actions were meant to protect. Why take those odds when you could handle the situation differently?

Imagine the aftermath. Imagine your kid coping with that horror, a fatality, yours or theirs, the gunshots, the blood. That spot they will have to walk past everyday until doing so becomes so unbearable they'll need to move away.

You know, what you're willing to die for, defending your turf just so he can't get yer stuff, is pretty odd reasoning. Most criminals breaking into someone's home intends to do no personal harm, but is doing so because they feel they can somehow profit from it, perhaps by fencing your goods to get money to support their drug addiction or whatever. You want to kill them for that, well, that's your prerogative. You will make a forgettable experience unforgettable.

It is rare that an individual, a criminal, a burglar, kills a stranger while unprovoked.
It does happen on most rare occasions.

To answer your question, been there, done that. In a high crime area. And yes, I've had a gun stuck in my face and have been threatened with knives and clubs. All events ended without anyone being hurt or wounded. It's all in the approach.

You seem determined to miss the point of my post. Fear inserts unpredictability into any situation. You seem to think you are immune to fear, and that's sad and dangerous not only to yourself, but to the family you are so intent on protecting from some future imagined potential intruder.

I believe it's your right to own a firearm. I don't need one. I'm capable of defending myself from an armed individual without the use of a deadly weapon. I'm not at war with anyone, nor would I ever be.


I did answer your question when I said that I am a proponent of mandatory training and ongoing practice as part of responsible gun ownership. That component addresses the fear factor significantly. You will react according to how you are trained and practice, not in response to fear.

I have minimal concerns re. a well-trained and practiced gun owner reacting from fear, because I've seen how effective training is in gun ownership. You will react according to your training, not from the impulse of fear.

And yes, I've had guns pointed at my general direction several times. But that's only because I was once employed in a capacity where I had to carry a gun.

Speaking of unanswered questions.. do you have a family at home that you are responsible for protecting?

How you prefer to respond to an armed intruder, in your home, to protect your own life is one thing. But how you respond to protect the lives of innocent children is quite another.

You can only be willing to be a martyr with your own life. You have no right to chose that path for your children.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby compared2what? » Thu May 13, 2010 2:36 pm

23 wrote:Speaking of unanswered questions.. do you have a family at home that you are responsible for protecting?


From several pages earlier in this very thread:

Iamwhomiam wrote:Fish, I think you nailed it in your op. Through their agents provocateur, the militaristic operators within our US gov’t. are egging on those with itchy trigger fingers to act rashly, whether at this rally or somewhere else. For if they do react as some feel they sooner or later will, their actions will serve to bring about what they fear most: not only the stripping of their second amendment rights, but of all their rights by provoking the suspension of the constitution and the institution of martial law. This is my fear and a danger I sense posed by the ‘patriot’ movement.

Earlier this month I was a guest lecturer before a graduate level class of students taking a Criminal Justice course at a prestigious local college. The course they were enrolled in was one on Law and Society and had to do with Crime and Justice Policy. I was there to address Restorative Justice issues involving Restorative Practices.

You may wonder what could qualify me to address such a class, and so I will tell you.

I’ve worn many hats in this life, but the one I wore to this presentation I would have preferred not to have in my wardrobe.

I belong to a club closely related to firearms, but one not any sane person would seek to join. I didn’t choose to join this exclusive club, but four years on March 25, 2006 a licensed firearm owner decided to enroll me in it. That was the morning he decided to kill my son and five of his friends and seriously physically wound two others before taking his own life. Numerous others there were severely scarred, not physically, but emotionally.

With me participating in the lecture were several other reluctant club members: a mother whose daughter was killed by her son-in-law, who afterward took his own life; the sister of a woman who was killed by her brother-in-law, who afterward took his own life; a man whose sister it is suspected was killed by Charles Manson and the mother and sister of a woman whose body was found buried in the basement of a man who killed and dismembered thirteen women. All were victims of legally licensed firearm owners, except for the young woman suspected of being killed by Charles Manson, who was not legally allowed to possess a firearm.

I began my presentation by asking who among them had experienced a loss due to firearms. Seven had; 25% of all those enrolled in this class. I informed them that unfortunately, statistically, others in this class sooner or later would too. One third of those on our panel were relatives of victims of domestic gun violence committed by legal gun owners.

Perhaps needless to say, our presentations were powerfully moving.

Those of you who think it would be appropriate to take the life of another for whatever reason have little understanding of loss or the pain caused by such acts of violence, or how such an act will forever change the person you once were.

You feed the energy that promotes violence just by expressing such a clinging desire for life at the expense of another’s; a life you know must come to an end in one way or another and I feel sorry for you.



In view of which, I'd respectfully suggest that asking that question again -- complete with the implication that it's Iawia who's somehow emotionally handicapped wrt family feeling in a way that prevents him from perceiving how obviously gun-ownership bespeaks a loving, patriarchal heart, no less -- would be even more insensitive than it was first or the second time.

Happily, I'm sure you have so many good arguments that innuendo about the manhood and maturity of the person you're debating are quite unnecessary.

Plus, as long as we're having this little chat:

23 wrote:Home invasions are common is my home town.


That cannot possibly be true. Because "home invasions" aren't common anywhere in the United States.*** Not even in the most lawless and debased Crip-or-Blood dominated high-rise housing project in the most gun-violence-ridden town in the land.

And that's per any and every scrap of statistical information on God's green earth. So links and/or citations of some kind, please. Because I fear that you may have been misled by your own fears into swallowing potentially dangerous misinformation.

Thanks.


*** Except of course as an agitprop phrase that insurance salespeople and right-wing rabble-rousers use to push the buttons of people who are afraid of blacks, immigrants, immoral drug-crazed, Satanic-orgy-having teens but don't quite know it on a conscious level. In which case, they're very common. Unsurprisingly, given that's what the meme was invented for.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby norton ash » Thu May 13, 2010 2:45 pm

Hey, C2W. I saw the bat-signal too, but was too busy to do the necessary that you just did.

Thanks.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby lightningBugout » Thu May 13, 2010 2:49 pm

home invasions?

Image
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby Simulist » Thu May 13, 2010 2:58 pm

23 wrote:You can only be willing to be a martyr with your own life. You have no right to chose that path for your children.

What a blatantly insensitive and stupid thing to say to a person who has already disclosed that s/he lost a son to the actions of a registered gun owner.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby elfismiles » Thu May 13, 2010 3:35 pm

compared2what? wrote:

23 wrote:Home invasions are common is my home town.


That cannot possibly be true. Because "home invasions" aren't common anywhere in the United States.*** Not even in the most lawless and debased Crip-or-Blood dominated high-rise housing project in the most gun-violence-ridden town in the land.

And that's per any and every scrap of statistical information on God's green earth. So links and/or citations of some kind, please. Because I fear that you may have been misled by your own fears into swallowing potentially dangerous misinformation.

Thanks.


*** Except of course as an agitprop phrase that insurance salespeople and right-wing rabble-rousers use to push the buttons of people who are afraid of blacks, immigrants, immoral drug-crazed, Satanic-orgy-having teens but don't quite know it on a conscious level. In which case, they're very common. Unsurprisingly, given that's what the meme was invented for.


FWIW ....


Arrests in Phoenix Home Invasion Cases
By RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD
Published: September 22, 2009


A new effort to combat a rash of home invasion-style robberies in Phoenix by teaming federal agents with the police has resulted in the arrest of 70 people since May and crimped the operations of several groups behind the crimes, the authorities said Tuesday.

Home invasion robberies and kidnappings, largely tied to the smuggling of drugs and people across the Mexican border, have been persistent problems in Phoenix and other cities near the border.

...

Violent crime is down overall in Phoenix, according to federal statistics, but the police have grown alarmed at the home invasion robberies and abductions, which have included victims as young as 13. Typically, victims are held until a drug debt or fee for being smuggled across the border is paid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/us/23phoenix.html



No sourcing on the following statistic...


Thursday, April 29, 2010
Behind the Arizona law and illegal immigration


... 200 home invasion assaults in a single year...

http://cuumbaya.blogspot.com/2010/04/be ... legal.html



Phoenix and Tucson police report over 400 kidnappings of Americans by Mexicans
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/webster/090214

U.S. "home invasions" up as thugs seek drug cash
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE53K00Y20090421

Robbers who invade homes rare, police say
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ns08m.html

"People have a perception that crime is going up, but statistics nationwide show it's actually gone down," said Bove.

After home invasion, Mission police chief terms ‘bleed-over of violence' in South Texas
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/miss ... bleed.html

Indeed, violent crime incidents per thousand residents jumped by 41 percent between 2005 and 2008 — the most recent four-year period for which statistics are available from the FBI Uniform Crime Report database. In the same period, violent crime rose nearly 15 percent in Pharr but fell by double-digit percentages in Edinburg and McAllen.

‘Living in fear’ LISA GRIPLAS
07 May, 2010 10:45 AM
http://www.wellingtontimes.com.au/news/ ... 23744.aspx

Wellington’s rate of crime is decreasing for most types of offences except for break and enter and malicious damage to property, according to the latest figures released by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research.

The April statistics for the 24 months leading up to December 2009 show these two categories have increased by 52.6 per cent and 44.6 per cent respectively and Wellington Council general manager Allan Dive yesterday expressed council’s concern regarding the levels of crime and misconduct occurring across town.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby beeline » Thu May 13, 2010 3:56 pm

- 38 percent of assaults and 60 percent of rapes occur during home invasions
- One in five homes undergoes a home invasion or break-in
- There are more than 8,000 home invasions every day in North America
- 50 percent of home invasions involve the use of a weapon; the most common weapons used are knives or other cutting instruments
- In 48 percent of home invasions, victims sustain physical injuries
-Victims age 60 or older make up 17 percent of home invasion victims
-In 68 percent of home invasions, victims and the accused are strangers; in 11 percent of these cases, victims and the accused are friends, business associates, or family

Link
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby barracuda » Thu May 13, 2010 4:39 pm

8000 home invasions every day? Wow. That's 2,920,000 per year.

One in five homes? Wow. That's 22,000,000 home invasions.

Sounds like an epidemic. Better be prepared to defend yourself.

But wait...

elfismiles wrote:Thursday, April 29, 2010
Behind the Arizona law and illegal immigration

... 200 home invasion assaults in a single year...

http://cuumbaya.blogspot.com/2010/04/be ... legal.html


The number of households in Arizona is almost two million. With only two hundred home invasions in a year? That's one in ten thousand.

No wonder everyone wants to live there.

(Those statistics have some 'splaining to do, 'cause I'm confused.)
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby 23 » Thu May 13, 2010 9:01 pm

Simulist wrote:
23 wrote:You can only be willing to be a martyr with your own life. You have no right to chose that path for your children.

What a blatantly insensitive and stupid thing to say to a person who has already disclosed that s/he lost a son to the actions of a registered gun owner.


Only of you are willing to ass-u-me that I read every post in this thread and had prior knowledge of that fact. Which I didn't, on both counts.

But hey, I'll be glad to take the hit if you feel strongly about forming that assumption-based conclusion.

For the future, though, I still don't read every post in the thread that I may be posting in.

Especially if it's a particularly long one.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby barracuda » Thu May 13, 2010 10:25 pm

How touching to see such heartfelt remorse in this situation.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby compared2what? » Fri May 14, 2010 2:41 am

beeline wrote:
...

Link


Yes. That's the same little scary yet vague list of non-statistics one finds everywhere, said to be (as they are at that link), "According to a United States Department of Justice report."

To take them one at a time:

    - 38 percent of assaults and 60 percent of rapes occur during home invasions

Not according to any Justice Department numbers I've ever seen. In fact, I can't find the DoJ report on home invasions they're referring to at all. Which I find utterly unsurprising, since "home invasion" is a button-pushing propagandistic meme, not a crime you can charge someone with.

They have no way of tracking those numbers, is my point.

Plus, the FBI -- which is, after all, a part of the Justice Department -- puts out annual "Crime in the United States" stats, with lots of tables and stuff, none of which show anything remotely like the above-cited.

And they've been doing that thing for years and years. It's one of their main public-servant-in-shining-armor routines. So I imagine they'd have something to say about it if all of sudden they were being publicly contradicted by some other, little-known home-invasion-investigative division of the DoJ.

I mean, I'll cop to the error, if I am in error. But I seriously don't see and can't find their original source for that list. And I've been looking everywhere for it.

    - One in five homes undergoes a home invasion or break-in


That "or break-in" kind of speaks for itself, imo.

    - There are more than 8,000 home invasions every day in North America


No idea where the hell that number is from. None. But even if it were accurate, it still wouldn't represent home invasions as "common," by anyone's definition.

    - 50 percent of home invasions involve the use of a weapon; the most common weapons used are knives or other cutting instruments


That seems to be a mashed-up and misleading recapitulation of the FBI numbers for various other crimes.

    - In 48 percent of home invasions, victims sustain physical injuries


Ditto.

    - Victims age 60 or older make up 17 percent of home invasion victims


Ditto.

    - In 68 percent of home invasions, victims and the accused are strangers; in 11 percent of these cases, victims and the accused are friends, business associates, or family


Ditto.

# # # #

IN SHORT:

That list is cherry-picking, inventing, and distorting numbers to frighten and thereby manipulate people.

Optimally deeply enough that in the event that they ever do run into some data (from the DoJ or elsewhere) that comes complete with a helpful explanation of stuff like what methodology was used to gather and analyze it, they'll be too blinded by their assumptions accurately to perceive and/or understand real criminal trends that pose a threat to their safety and well-being.

Hence, the world as we know it.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby compared2what? » Fri May 14, 2010 3:07 am

23 wrote:
Simulist wrote:
23 wrote:You can only be willing to be a martyr with your own life. You have no right to chose that path for your children.

What a blatantly insensitive and stupid thing to say to a person who has already disclosed that s/he lost a son to the actions of a registered gun owner.


Only of you are willing to ass-u-me that I read every post in this thread and had prior knowledge of that fact. Which I didn't, on both counts.

But hey, I'll be glad to take the hit if you feel strongly about forming that assumption-based conclusion.

For the future, though, I still don't read every post in the thread that I may be posting in.

Especially if it's a particularly long one.


Good thing you're not dogmatic, then, I guess.

Because there's pretty much no way to grasp enough about any really important topic to have an informed opinion on it that doesn't entail reading multiple lengthy and nuanced statements about it by other people. A large number of whom probably came by whatever knowledge or understanding they're going all out to share with you via a wide variety of experiences and observations your own life didn't happen to include.

So you'd kind of be at pretty high risk for seeing each thing and also all things in the exact same self-validating and knee-jerk sort of a way if you were temperamentally more the rigid and doctrinaire type, you know?

Anyway. Thanks for falling on your sword like that. Mighty white of you.

Cheers.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby compared2what? » Fri May 14, 2010 3:20 am

elfismiles wrote:
compared2what? wrote:

23 wrote:Home invasions are common is my home town.


That cannot possibly be true. Because "home invasions" aren't common anywhere in the United States.*** Not even in the most lawless and debased Crip-or-Blood dominated high-rise housing project in the most gun-violence-ridden town in the land.

And that's per any and every scrap of statistical information on God's green earth. So links and/or citations of some kind, please. Because I fear that you may have been misled by your own fears into swallowing potentially dangerous misinformation.

Thanks.


*** Except of course as an agitprop phrase that insurance salespeople and right-wing rabble-rousers use to push the buttons of people who are afraid of blacks, immigrants, immoral drug-crazed, Satanic-orgy-having teens but don't quite know it on a conscious level. In which case, they're very common. Unsurprisingly, given that's what the meme was invented for.


FWIW ....


Arrests in Phoenix Home Invasion Cases
By RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD
Published: September 22, 2009


A new effort to combat a rash of home invasion-style robberies in Phoenix by teaming federal agents with the police has resulted in the arrest of 70 people since May and crimped the operations of several groups behind the crimes, the authorities said Tuesday.

Home invasion robberies and kidnappings, largely tied to the smuggling of drugs and people across the Mexican border, have been persistent problems in Phoenix and other cities near the border.

...

Violent crime is down overall in Phoenix, according to federal statistics, but the police have grown alarmed at the home invasion robberies and abductions, which have included victims as young as 13. Typically, victims are held until a drug debt or fee for being smuggled across the border is paid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/us/23phoenix.html



No sourcing on the following statistic...


Thursday, April 29, 2010
Behind the Arizona law and illegal immigration


... 200 home invasion assaults in a single year...

http://cuumbaya.blogspot.com/2010/04/be ... legal.html



Phoenix and Tucson police report over 400 kidnappings of Americans by Mexicans
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/webster/090214

U.S. "home invasions" up as thugs seek drug cash
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE53K00Y20090421

Robbers who invade homes rare, police say
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ns08m.html

"People have a perception that crime is going up, but statistics nationwide show it's actually gone down," said Bove.

After home invasion, Mission police chief terms ‘bleed-over of violence' in South Texas
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/miss ... bleed.html

Indeed, violent crime incidents per thousand residents jumped by 41 percent between 2005 and 2008 — the most recent four-year period for which statistics are available from the FBI Uniform Crime Report database. In the same period, violent crime rose nearly 15 percent in Pharr but fell by double-digit percentages in Edinburg and McAllen.

‘Living in fear’ LISA GRIPLAS
07 May, 2010 10:45 AM
http://www.wellingtontimes.com.au/news/ ... 23744.aspx

Wellington’s rate of crime is decreasing for most types of offences except for break and enter and malicious damage to property, according to the latest figures released by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research.

The April statistics for the 24 months leading up to December 2009 show these two categories have increased by 52.6 per cent and 44.6 per cent respectively and Wellington Council general manager Allan Dive yesterday expressed council’s concern regarding the levels of crime and misconduct occurring across town.


As I said, it's a meme that's used for anti-immigrant fear-mongering and dog-whistling.

So of course the media are getting every alarmist statistical rundown on Arizona there is. Just as soon as it wends its way far enough away from whatever conservative think-tank isolated all the scary stuff from all off-message context in the first place for it not to be too embarrassing for them to print (or broadcast).

I mean, what else would you exepct?
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby Project Willow » Fri May 14, 2010 4:16 am

Warning, this is one of those ditto posts...

norton ash wrote:Hey, C2W. I saw the bat-signal too, but was too busy to do the necessary that you just did.

Thanks.


Ditto, plus for this evening's contributions.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby lightningBugout » Fri May 14, 2010 4:58 am

compared2what? wrote:Anyway. Thanks for falling on your sword like that. Mighty white of you.


Oh...snap!
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