RIers, How do you feel about the future?

[Ben D]

I was actually editing that out as you posted, as I sensed on reflection that the graduation theme analogy was a poor one for what I was trying to convey.

But the rest of it stands..it's my best effort to convey the almost in-conveyable to someone who does not yet have prerequisite understanding to understand what is being explained. It's not your lack of smartness Sounder...

[minime]

Ah ha...so little understanding of the esoteric side of things you presently have.

Yes my understanding is miniscule, but I will still be happy to contrast it with yours any day of the week.

Also, I will feel better about the future if you would stop dangling transcendence carrots with talk of puberty and times being ripe, as it seems a bit kinky. More like what you might hear from a flasher at the mall, than a hopeful helpful teacher.

And yes I do find it amusing that with your sort of narrative, you can't help but to talk down to others.

We will see how long that lasts.

When talked down to, rise above it. But keep your feet on the ground.

I vote for involution over transcendence, given just those two choices. And of course there are more than just those two choices.

If I cared to vote.

As you were.

Or not.

[Sounder]

When talked down to, rise above it.

Good advice and we try might to rise above, but there is no call for pretending to rise above it. (In meat space life, I am never ever talked down to, so that I find it odd and silly when it is encountered here.)

But keep your feet on the ground.

That alone argues for involution in preference to transcendence.

I vote for involution over transcendence, given just those two choices. And of course there are more than just those two choices.

Right again, those two things are simply labels that in the end cover over as much as they reveal of our underlying reality.

[Ben D]

Sorry Sounder...it's not as it seems...there is more to awareness than the ego mind's conceptual grasp.

Now you are an excellent craftsman wrt wood...you know that you can't pass that skill and knowledge on to a casual part time aspirant of woodcraft by words alone. They must also have great devotion and spend years upon years working with wood to attain the superb degree of mastery you have realized. You seem to think that the underlying esoteric principles of mysticism can be known from an intellectual perspective with just a part time interest. You can not serve two masters without serving one second best, you will love the one and eschew the other, or vice versa.

Hi minime...'when talked down to (perceived), rise above it'...'but keep your feet on the ground'. Good one. As above , so below....spirit and matter, heaven and earth, life and death....all is an one when the mind is quiescent...a harmonious peace where nothing needs doing. But that damn mortal ego wants heaven on earth...thus peace eludes it..

Btw, 'involution' as is generally understood wrt esotericism, is the descent of the expanded awareness into matter, evolution is the ascent...and 'transcendence' as I am using the term, is the translation process of the self awareness developed as a result of incarnations to immortality.

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.
-Jalaluddin Rumi

So there in a nutshell, for those with 'eyes to see', lies the future destiny of the what and who we really are....as we grow and unfold from within through the trials and tribulations of the obligatory pilgrimage through material existence.

But for you Sounder, this does not mean there isn't also a great and wondrous future for mankind on the physical plane...but it is always guided and governed by principles above. So I'm with you wrt respecting the great leaders of mankind who open doors of knowledge that benefit mankind on this physical plane. So my presentation is not about transcendence being preferable to ongoing reincarnation...everything is as it should be and people makes choices that they think are best for them...the whole is always at peace as the eternal dance of good and evil/ying and yang plays on..

[Iamwhomiam]

minime, I cannot comprehend the meaning of "involution" as you used it here:
"I vote for involution over transcendence, given just those two choices."

To me, this means "flesh over spirit." Would you please explain for me what you mean, but with different words, if that's possible?

Ben & Sounder, you're engaging in a philosophical discussion that requires, as Ben kindly said, experience. A simple/not so simple samadhi achieved through meditation is indeed a transcendent experience, a transcendent spiritual experience achieved through discipline of one's physical being.

learn more about the 4 states of meditation

One who hasn't experienced this transcendent state can only understand it as well as a man can understand pregnancy. It can only be understood through personal experience. A blissful detachment of consciousness from the material state.

Each man's opinion is valid according to their beliefs, as it pertains to them personally, which according to mine, reflects their own individual spiritual development.

[Sounder]

Sorry Sounder...it's not as it seems...there is more to awareness than the ego mind's conceptual grasp.

Yes, our and-or my conceptual grasp can only contain but a small portion of ‘what is’, and it will still be so even after we improve on our conceptual structures. And yet, conceptual structures can be built that improve general access to a larger awareness, in contrast to materialist pretences that deny or cut off connections to larger awareness.

Now you are an excellent craftsman wrt wood...you know that you can't pass that skill and knowledge on to a casual part time aspirant of woodcraft by words alone. They must also have great devotion and spend years upon years working with wood to attain the superb degree of mastery you have realized.

No, they must have talent and a willingness to submit to a fair bit of drudgery. The work itself is not that hard and for my part I have near zero ‘devotion’ and yet produce high level product. (My identity is not derived through my work.)

My lack of devotion was a sticking point with my Buddhist comrades 35 years ago. I was told that I could not be a good carpenter because I was too much into philosophy. I laughed silently because I knew that egotistical folk always burn themselves out trying to keep up with their pretences. This did indeed happen as I am the last man standing.

You seem to think that the underlying esoteric principles of mysticism can be known from an intellectual perspective with just a part time interest.

Uhhh, no I do not.

You can not serve two masters without serving one second best, you will love the one and eschew the other, or vice versa.

My ‘master’ has produced the whole thing, and my care is also for the whole thing.

To me, the presumption in your sentence is dualistic.

But that damn mortal ego wants heaven on earth...thus peace eludes it..

There is no call for heaven on earth; there is a call for dignity from many of my crying brothers and sisters.

The same can be said for the ego that considers itself ‘advanced’ enough to have a shot at ‘graduating’. At least that has been my empirical observation. No peace, and in fact, some fairly fucked up lives for the (beautiful, yet ingloriously egotistical) people involved.

So there in a nutshell, for those with 'eyes to see', lies the future destiny of the what and who we really are....as we grow and unfold from within through the trials and tribulations of the obligatory pilgrimage through material existence.

All well and good, my issue is with folk that want to goose their personal future destiny while showing little concern for our collective future destiny.

And I have never seen good results on that score. Folk that are ‘getting ahead’ of themselves seldom rise up to fulfill claims made earlier.

Also, because I agree with Rumi and you about future destiny, as a point of logic, there is no need to have something as a goal if it is a natural destiny.

My goal, and my goal for others is to be in sync with wherever I (and others) are at in the great arc of the involution/evolution process.

This strikes me as being a better point for leverage while trying to deal with ‘all that is’.

[minime]

minime, I cannot comprehend the meaning of "involution" as you used it here:
"I vote for involution over transcendence, given just those two choices."

To me, this means "flesh over spirit." Would you please explain for me what you mean, but with different words, if that's possible?

Thank you for asking. I could not wish for more. Well, vitality maybe. Clarity certainly.

To borrow your terms: As I use it, involution means flesh and spirit over 'flesh over spirit' and 'spirit over flesh'. In terms of movement, involution is the movement into and within over the movement out. There is nothing to get beyond (the trans- in transcendence) and there is nowhere to go.

Involution is available, immediate.

Involution is an act of will--to indwelling and interpenetration. Think Bergson's intensities. Or the New Testament's version of speirema, but without emphasis on a vertical direction, either up or down. Involution is the thing that we do

Transcendence, such as it is, will--once we have become involved--take care of itself. How can it be otherwise.

"And of course there are more than just those two choices."

[Ben D]

And yet, conceptual structures can be built that improve general access to a larger awareness, in contrast to materialist pretences that deny or cut off connections to larger awareness.

...but 'transcendence' as a concept, represents the larger awareness...it's the territory if you like, while ego conceptual structures represents the map. The map is not the territory...concepts are not the reality they symbolically represent. The Tao that can be known is not the eternal Tao. - Lao Tzu

The same can be said for the ego that considers itself ‘advanced’ enough to have a shot at ‘graduating’. At least that has been my empirical observation. No peace, and in fact, some fairly fucked up lives for the (beautiful, yet ingloriously egotistical) people involved.

A fairly accurate observation of what usually happens during the trials and tribulations, as the ego self, in ignorance, not necessarily in knowing defiance, fights for supremacy with regards to what and who one really is. Peace only comes with transcendence.

My goal, and my goal for others is to be in sync with wherever I (and others) are at in the great arc of the involution/evolution process.

Why do you think you should determine the goal for others?

[Iamwhomiam]

Thank you, minime.

I should have added, "as though you were explaining it to a confused youth." Remember, please, I'm an uneducated, addle-brained ancient!

I do believe there's a difference in thinking about something, (our spiritual "mind") which I would agree is involution of mind and body as one, and meditating. Meditation, the silencing of thought, (thinking being generated by individual ego), brings about a transcendent state, a state of reality that I would argue is something that exists entirely detached from the corporeal entity, a super-consciousness not attainable through thought, although, as incarnate beings we are always connected to it. Seems contradictory, but we are all part of one reality. Individual, ego driven reality, to me would be "involution" as I take your meaning. Introspection or 'deep thinking'.

Indeed, there is a separation of the two, Mind and Body. As when a Buddhist chooses to shed his body completely, permanently, to physically die when spirit, (mind), willingly escapes its mortal coil, something achievable only when in a transcendent deep meditative state.

In terms of movement, involution is the movement into and within over the movement out. There is nothing to get beyond (the trans- in transcendence) and there is nowhere to go.

I argue there is something to get beyond, though. Conversely, if there's no place to go, there cannot be any possibility of inward movement.

Involution is available, immediate.

Introspection is available and immediate

Involution is an act of will--to indwelling and interpenetration.

Introspection is an act of will--to indwelling and interpenetration.

Never read any of Bergson's books and never studied his work. Don't know that I will, but thanks for the reference. From his wiki page, he seems to have been quite a deep thinker. But he seems to have been ignorant of the Buddhist concept of meditation and the different states of consciousness achievable.

Thank you minime. I enjoy discussing this topic.

For many, it's often difficult to grasp the ethereal.

[Sounder]

...but 'transcendence' as a concept, represents the larger awareness...it's the territory if you like, while ego conceptual structures represents the map. The map is not the territory...concepts are not the reality they symbolically represent. The Tao that can be known is not the eternal Tao. - Lao Tzu

As a duly elected representative of the larger awareness, the larger awareness would like to inform you that it is inappropriate to corral larger awareness into such a limiting form.
This is poor use of analogy. Key word, first sentence; represents. Like all conceptual structures, transcendence is also, as you said a concept. It’s an indicator that produces a fuzzy map judging by where its followers get taken too.

Why do you think you should determine the goal for others?

You are cherry picking BenD. So maybe deal with what is said here and I will be more happy to answer your question.

So there in a nutshell, for those with 'eyes to see', lies the future destiny of the what and who we really are....as we grow and unfold from within through the trials and tribulations of the obligatory pilgrimage through material existence.

All well and good, my issue is with folk that want to goose their personal future destiny while showing little concern for our collective future destiny.

And I have never seen good results on that score. Folk that are ‘getting ahead’ of themselves seldom rise up to fulfill claims made earlier.

Also, because I agree with Rumi and you about future destiny, as a point of logic, there is no need to have something as a goal if it is a natural destiny.

Thanks minime, it’s great to see folk get to the inside of the ideas involved so as to give a better chance for the ideas to flower.

[8bitagent]

to a tee.

[Ben D]

...but 'transcendence' as a concept, represents the larger awareness...it's the territory if you like, while ego conceptual structures represents the map. The map is not the territory...concepts are not the reality they symbolically represent. The Tao that can be known is not the eternal Tao. - Lao Tzu

As a duly elected representative of the larger awareness, the larger awareness would like to inform you that it is inappropriate to corral larger awareness into such a limiting form.
This is poor use of analogy. Key word, first sentence; represents. Like all conceptual structures, transcendence is also, as you said a concept. It’s an indicator that produces a fuzzy map judging by where its followers get taken too.

The more it is explained that concepts are not real, except as concepts, but only serve to represent the real, and that there is no other way to try and convey this wisdom except through the use of conceptual language as a necessary expedient, the more you use conceptual language to argue against the explanation...

So please keep this simple and to the point, so we can put an end end this foolishness. It has been made clear to you that 'transcendence' is a concept that represents the reality represented by your preferred concept...'larger awareness'. What is the reality represented by your concept 'larger awareness' that you claim I am trying to corral into a limiting form? And please show me where I have tried to do this?

And please use your conceptual language, being aware of its expediency, to respond explicitly to the points raised....so as to be able to get closure at some point soon.

[Sounder]

Nope, apparently we are already done.

Thank-you for your time and input.

[Lord Balto]

The "world" isn't coming to an end. Humanity, perhaps, or a large portion of it. And Musk's notion that we must preserve consciousness by colonizing Mars is just silly. It's not a bad idea (the colonization), but I'm sure there is lots of consciousness in the Milky Way galaxy. Read Giordano Bruno, whom the Roman Inquisition took seven years to convict before they burned him at the stake.

[stillrobertpaulsen]

to a tee.

Classic. Reminds me, I wrote a blog post almost two years ago titled The Future where I linked to that song.