Human race 'will be extinct within 100 years'

[stillrobertpaulsen]

Our economic system allows both for competition and cooperation, as we see fit.

I would just like to amend one word in your statement there.

Our economic system allows both for competition and cooperation, as they see fit.

Or as George Carlin put it, "It's a big club - and you ain't in it! You and I are not in the big club."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw

It's never going to get any better, don't look for it, be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don't want that.

I'm talking about the real owners now. The big, wealthy...The real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets, and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They've got you by the balls! They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying – lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else.

But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that! That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. That's right! You know something? They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they're getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don't want that! You know what they want? They want Obedient Workers – Obedient Workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And, now, they're coming for your Social Security money. They want your fucking retirement money. They want it back, so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all from you, sooner or later, because they own this fucking place. It's a big club - and you ain't in it! You and I are not in the big club.

By the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long and they tell you what to believe...All day long, beating you over the head in the media, what to believe, what to think and what to buy...The table is tilted, folks! The game is rigged! And nobody seems to notice, and nobody seems to care! Good honest, hard-working people! White collar, blue collar... Doesn't matter what color shirt you have on! Good honest, hard-working people continue...These are people of modest means!...continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don't give a fuck about them! They don't give a fuck about you! They don't give a fuck about you! They don't care about you! At all! At all! At all! Yeah! You know? And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on. The fact that Americans probably will remain willfully ignorant of the big red white and blue dick that's being jammed up their assholes every day! Because the owners of this country know the truth - it's called the American Dream: because you have to be asleep to believe it."

[minime]

Well, as long as you're changing just one word...

[minime]

You deserve a better reply.

I meant that we decide how much we are going to compete, and how much we're going to cooperate. When we compete, we keep resources, information, etc. to ourselves. When we cooperate, we share them freely. The ptmb are very much in favor of us keeping resources to ourselves, after they have gotten their share. They are not in favor of us cooperating and sharing our resources, as it makes their existence as a military entity unnecessary to maintain the status quo. They prefer family to tribe.

You give the ptmb too much credit. Most of us are invisible to them. At least to this point in time. They are even more narcissistic than 'we' are, if that is possible, and we come to their attention only at a certain level, or a certain kind, of 'cooperation'.

What kind of cooperation are you talking about?

[stillrobertpaulsen]

You deserve a better reply.

I meant that we decide how much we are going to compete, and how much we're going to cooperate. When we compete, we keep resources, information, etc. to ourselves. When we cooperate, we share them freely. The ptmb are very much in favor of us keeping resources to ourselves, after they have gotten their share. They are not in favor of us cooperating and sharing our resources, as it makes their existence as a military entity unnecessary to maintain the status quo. They prefer family to tribe.

You give the ptmb too much credit. Most of us are invisible to them. At least to this point in time. They are even more narcissistic than 'we' are, if that is possible, and we come to their attention only at a certain level, or a certain kind, of 'cooperation'.

What kind of cooperation are you talking about?

That's OK, I got a good laugh out of your first reply. As far as cooperation goes, I'm a big fan, as Ruppert was, of re-localization. Until you change the way money works, you change nothing. Local currencies, reflective of the energy produced locally both through the labor within that locale and the goods produced, would be a vast improvement over the status quo's fiat/fractional reserve/compound interest pyramid scheme and would truly foster an atmosphere of real cooperation and sharing our resources. As far as how that concerns the existential threat that this thread is addressing, I'm a big fan of the concept of energy credits. If a locale's prior economic contribution was the production of greenhouse gas-producing fuels, or if the production of their staple was achieved through the production of greenhouse gas-producing fuels, then they should receive energy credits as an incentive to use clean renewable alternative energy sources. While each locale will respond differently to adjust to the needs of their constituents, the goal of deindustrializing to a sustainable society for the health of humanity and the planet should be paramount.

well, ruppert's all-or-nothing agenda worked out real good for him didn't it?

I don't pretend to know why Ruppert killed himself and I really hope you're not suggesting that having an "all-or-nothing agenda" is the reason why. Mike's message about evolving doesn't necessitate following a mystical pathway anymore than it necessitates blowing your savings account on barroom hustlers or having a breakdown in Bellevue. Never confuse the man with the message. And Mike's message is still valid and simple enough to break down into two parts: 1) Unless you change the way money works, you change nothing. 2) You cannot have infinite growth on a finite planet. When enough people get those two parts of his message, then society can evolve. Yes, Ruppert the man gave up on society, but that doesn't mean the rest of the living still have to.

looks like the river is going to flood the town, we need shitloads of sandbaggers, but oh dear, however will we pay for them?

if something must be done, it gets done. There's more than enough unproductive capital floating around to front however much is needed.

Yeah, that worked out real well for New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, didn't it? I suppose Blackwater or Halliburton could use "if something must be done, it gets done" as their slogan.

This is a solvable problem. IF we act.

so let's agree on 'evolving' enough at least to fucking do something.

keep in mind, I'm absolutely talking about reshaping the nature of the economy and down-sizing free market capitalism extensively, but some 'command and control' is called for here too. People can work together very well indeed, when the economic system isn't designed to pit them against one another.

I absolutely agree, justdrew. But if we treat this existential threat like just another emergency flood, we'll be in worse shape than New Orleans in 2005. Because our economic system is designed to pit people against one another. I think this is what Sounder is trying to get at too. We need revolutionary action to counter an existential threat. Where our economic system is concerned, that means not just changing the way money is distributed, but changing money itself so that it no longer represents debt. So that questions of cost, how much we owe, who we owe, are no longer an issue. End the Infinite Growth Paradigm. Achieve Balance.

One other point I want to clarify. I've got no problem with your idea of putting up a million or a billion reflective parasol satellites. But when I said, "the Plan B you propose has no chance in hell unless we abandon Plan A first", that means a trillion parasol satellites won't matter if we keep plowing through our carbon supply. We can sequester coal (though we have to change the way money works first so that their won't be a backlash over the cost) but we can't sequester oil or gas. Massive conservation must be an integral part of our course of action. Our future literally depends on it.

[DrEvil]

I agree with srb that there's no need for a spiritual evolution of society, just an evolution. That's not impossible, society has been evolving forever, and it still is.
The problem is that we're evolving the wrong way. Right now society selects for selfish behavior.
We're slowly turning ourselves into a society of psychopaths.

Maybe we should look backwards, like really, really far back, and take a page from the San people, one of the "original" populations that all modern humans descended from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people#Society

Society

The San kinship system reflects their interdependence as traditionally small mobile foraging bands. The kinship system is comparable to the eskimo kinship system, with the same set of terms as in European cultures, but also uses a name rule and an age rule. The age rule resolves any confusion arising from kinship terms, as the older of two people always decides what to call the younger. Relatively few names circulate (approximately 35 names per sex), and each child is named after a grandparent or another relative.

Children have no social duties besides playing, and leisure is very important to San of all ages. Large amounts of time are spent in conversation, joking, music, and sacred dances. Women have a high status in San society, are greatly respected, and may be leaders of their own family groups. They make important family and group decisions and claim ownership of water holes and foraging areas. Women are mainly involved in the gathering of food, but may also take part in hunting.

The most important thing in San life is water. Droughts may last many months and waterholes may dry up. When this happens, they use sip wells. To get water this way, a San scrapes a deep hole where the sand is damp. Into this hole is inserted a long hollow grass stem. An empty ostrich egg is used to collect the water. Water is sucked into the straw from the sand, into the mouth, and then travels down another straw into the ostrich egg.

Traditionally, the San were an egalitarian society.[35] Although they had hereditary chiefs, their authority was limited. The San made decisions among themselves by consensus,[36] with women treated as relative equals.[37] San economy was a gift economy, based on giving each other gifts regularly rather than on trading or purchasing goods and services.[38]

[stillrobertpaulsen]

I agree with srb that there's no need for a spiritual evolution of society, just an evolution. That's not impossible, society has been evolving forever, and it still is.
The problem is that we're evolving the wrong way. Right now society selects for selfish behavior.
We're slowly turning ourselves into a society of psychopaths.

Maybe we should look backwards, like really, really far back, and take a page from the San people, one of the "original" populations that all modern humans descended from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people#Society

Society

The San kinship system reflects their interdependence as traditionally small mobile foraging bands. The kinship system is comparable to the eskimo kinship system, with the same set of terms as in European cultures, but also uses a name rule and an age rule. The age rule resolves any confusion arising from kinship terms, as the older of two people always decides what to call the younger. Relatively few names circulate (approximately 35 names per sex), and each child is named after a grandparent or another relative.

Children have no social duties besides playing, and leisure is very important to San of all ages. Large amounts of time are spent in conversation, joking, music, and sacred dances. Women have a high status in San society, are greatly respected, and may be leaders of their own family groups. They make important family and group decisions and claim ownership of water holes and foraging areas. Women are mainly involved in the gathering of food, but may also take part in hunting.

The most important thing in San life is water. Droughts may last many months and waterholes may dry up. When this happens, they use sip wells. To get water this way, a San scrapes a deep hole where the sand is damp. Into this hole is inserted a long hollow grass stem. An empty ostrich egg is used to collect the water. Water is sucked into the straw from the sand, into the mouth, and then travels down another straw into the ostrich egg.

Traditionally, the San were an egalitarian society.[35] Although they had hereditary chiefs, their authority was limited. The San made decisions among themselves by consensus,[36] with women treated as relative equals.[37] San economy was a gift economy, based on giving each other gifts regularly rather than on trading or purchasing goods and services.[38]

Thanks, DrEvil. I think this is an excellent example of the type of society we need emulate as far as cultural values are concerned.

As a side note, is it just me...

...or has the subject of extinction suddenly become a hot topic in pop culture?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcmB-BoY1j0

[Sounder]

Sounder wrote:But our economic system is designed to pit us against each other. It is so because our split model of reality has led to scientific materialism and that will always and forever, as long as it hold sway on our imaginations, treat the ‘other’ as a threat.

Disagree.

Our economic system allows both for competition and cooperation, as we see fit.

Ok then, I’ll go with, the system is designed for cooperation toward the in group and competition with the out group.

The opportunities for cooperation are infinite, and within the current system.

We choose.

I like this. My strategy in work life is to make things easier for people around me.

I create value by solving (many) more problems than I create (relative to my peers). But in my line of work, solving problems does not involve lying or other deceits, so it is a thing one can be happy to cooperate with. Unfortunately the jobs of many folk involve cooperation with the tacit spreading of institutionalized lies, so what?, a choice then has been made to cooperate with coercion.

So yes, the opportunities are infinite, but cooperation can be a bad choice also.

Much like this forum.

Pretty much.

And now, back to the show!

[justdrew]

[stillrobertpaulsen]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks very much for that, justdrew. Lots of wonderful insight and much food for thought. This quote in particular stood out:

"The human race has come to a dead end."

Interesting synch, coming to that conclusion in 1970, the year US oil production peaked. In Watts' philosophical way, he seems to be describing Jevon's Paradox of our techno-obsessed society: the more we try to fix things, the more we screw things up.

[Ben D]

"The human race has come to a dead end."

I think everyone feels this is the case when and if their personal life reaches a nadir of darkness whereby little joy is felt day to day. It reflects a natural egoistical predisposition to conflate one's personal philosophical perspective with the whole and mistake it for reality itself. However planetary life including humanity, despite the fact that every human alive today will die, continues on in the aeons ahead.

Sure, I too believe the karma is ripe for some armageddon type event on planet Earth....but like all season endings, the next is coming in the never ceasing cycles of eternal nature.

[minime]

But in my line of work, solving problems does not involve lying or other deceits, so it is a thing one can be happy to cooperate with. Unfortunately the jobs of many folk involve cooperation with the tacit spreading of institutionalized lies, so what?, a choice then has been made to cooperate with coercion.

Tacit is ubiquitous. The personal interaction is part and parcel of the business relationship and all others, and at the same time -- and the tacit is there, being the better part of valor.

Someone said...

the polarity is within the category rather than between the categories.

And blended throughout. And with each other.

[Sounder]

and the tacit is there, being the better part of valor.

Nice turn of phrase, so true.

Your responses are over my head sometimes, and I like that, thanks minime.

[stillrobertpaulsen]

Fascinating. Is there some other species out there we can mate with to escape our current predicament? Not on this planet, as far as I can see.

'Extinct human gene helped Tibetans survive high altitudes'
Last Updated: Thursday, July 03, 2014, 21:32

Washington: In a ground breaking discovery, researchers have found that Tibetans were able to adapt to high altitudes thanks to a gene picked up when their ancestors mated with a species of humans they helped push to extinction.

This is the first time a gene from another human species has been shown unequivocally to have helped modern humans adapt to their environment.

An unusual variant of a gene involved in regulating the body's production of haemoglobin - the molecule that carries oxygen in the blood - became widespread in Tibetans after they moved onto the high-altitude plateau several thousand years ago.

This variant allowed them to survive despite low-oxygen levels at elevations of 15,000 feet or more whereas most people develop thick blood at high altitudes, leading to cardiovascular problems, researchers from University of California (UC), Berkeley, claimed.

"We have very clear evidence that this version of the gene came from Denisovans, a mysterious human relative that went extinct 40,000-50,000 years ago, around the same time as the more well-known Neanderthals, under pressure from modern humans," explained Rasmus Nielsen, professor of integrative biology at UC Berkeley.

"This shows very clearly and directly that humans evolved and adapted to new environments by getting their genes from another species," he noted.

The gene, called EPAS1, is activated when oxygen levels in the blood drop, triggering production of more haemoglobin.

At high altitude, the common variants of the gene boost haemoglobin and its carrier, red blood cells, too much, increasing the thickness of the blood and leading to hypertension and heart attacks.

The variant or allele found in Tibetans raises haemoglobin and red blood cell levels only slightly at high elevation, avoiding the side-effects seen in most people who relocate to elevations above 13,000 feet.

"We found part of the EPAS1 gene in Tibetans is almost identical to the gene in Denisovans and very different from all other humans," Nielsen emphasised.

For the study published in the journal Nature, Nielsen and his colleagues subsequently sequenced the EPAS1 gene in an additional 40 Tibetans and 40 Han Chinese.

The data revealed that the high-altitude variant of EPAS1 is so unusual that it could only have come from Denisovans, the study concluded.

[Hammer of Los]

...

Fascinating. Is there some other species out there we can mate with to escape our current predicament?

You are a funny man, Mr Paulson
...

[stillrobertpaulsen]

...

Fascinating. Is there some other species out there we can mate with to escape our current predicament?

You are a funny man, Mr Paulson
...

Thanks, Hammer of Los. Not sure I was thinking some other species could make us escape our predicament...

...unless I was under the influence of Hollywood.