Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby justdrew » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:12 pm

BrandonD » 03 Feb 2015 18:05 wrote:I recently had a talk with someone who is apparently high up in the oil & gas industry (in Houston, every other person works in oil & gas).

He was explaining to my boss and I that there is no incentive to make renewable energy because it is still more expensive than coal. There is no infrastructure for it, for example it would require building massive new factories to convert the solar/wind/etc to electrical power.

I asked him, what if the devices that collected the solar or wind power were themselves able to convert what they received directly into electrical energy? Then there would be no reason they couldn't just use the existing infrastructure.

He responded that there exists no way to store renewable energy. This statement seemed a bit absurd to me, as I have cheap little solar lights in my front yard that glow in the nighttime from the solar energy that they collected earlier that day. Also, if the device is converting the energy directly into electrical energy, then it could conceivably be stored by your standard battery, right?

I was wondering if anyone who is more knowledgeable on the subject would like to comment on this, maybe shine some light on a point I might be missing. Or perhaps this guy just believes whatever he needs to in order to justify his involvement in the oil industry.


There are certainly ways to store it.

The batteries we mostly have are not a great way.

Here's one that is in place and being used IIRC, the basic idea is to dig a deep hole, it's air tight, and you use excess power during the day to build up air pressure in there, during the night, the pressure is let out through a generator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage

There are other methods too, such as building up heat in a heatsink of some sort, or pumping water up a hill, flywheels, etc...

funny how easy it is to not know about such things when one's livelihood is based on doing things the other way.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Nordic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:30 am

The oil and gas guy is just repeating what he's been told by his higher ups. Gotta keep morale high among the workforce and give them reason for getting out of bed AND let them spread their "expert" info.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby minime » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:09 am

BrandonD » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:05 pm wrote:I was wondering if anyone who is more knowledgeable on the subject would like to comment on this, maybe shine some light on a point I might be missing. Or perhaps this guy just believes whatever he needs to in order to justify his involvement in the oil industry.


The infrastructure is already in place: the grid itself will store the energy you produce, and it's ubiquitous. In its most practical application, solar cells produce energy during the day, which keeps batteries charged, and when they are fully charged, the electricity goes through the meter, actually or effectively running it backwards. Depending on the utility and your situation, that electricity will either defray your power bill, generate a credit on your bill, or provide you with income.

However, any source of electricity is the same to the extent that it provides electrons. The difference is how much and how fast. Solar energy is ideal for the implementation of the system, generally called net metering. Capturing the electricity from lightning, for example, would create its own set of problems.

Cold fusion should not be much of a problem, at least in the sense of using the grid as a storage medium.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby justdrew » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:27 am

oh, and apparently there ARE good batteries too...

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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Rory » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:40 pm

minime » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:09 am wrote:
BrandonD » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:05 pm wrote:I was wondering if anyone who is more knowledgeable on the subject would like to comment on this, maybe shine some light on a point I might be missing. Or perhaps this guy just believes whatever he needs to in order to justify his involvement in the oil industry.


The infrastructure is already in place: the grid itself will store the energy you produce, and it's ubiquitous. In its most practical application, solar cells produce energy during the day, which keeps batteries charged, and when they are fully charged, the electricity goes through the meter, actually or effectively running it backwards. Depending on the utility and your situation, that electricity will either defray your power bill, generate a credit on your bill, or provide you with income.

However, any source of electricity is the same to the extent that it provides electrons. The difference is how much and how fast. Solar energy is ideal for the implementation of the system, generally called net metering. Capturing the electricity from lightning, for example, would create its own set of problems.

Cold fusion should not be much of a problem, at least in the sense of using the grid as a storage medium.


I wouldn't be putting too much faith in the grid (referring to USA) in its current incarnation. There has been precious little investment in upgrading the system to cope with residential solar feed in tariff use, and while some areas are better prepared than others, shy of some huge plan to change that, the quality of the infrastructure is doomed to degrade further and become less useful to the storage scenarios you describe.

Underinvestment is the byword for electricity utilities in the USA. I can't see that turning around - I know I the Southern California electricity grid better than any other geographic territory, and utilities there aren't equipped to deal with the upgrades and replacements required to allow widespread residential solar (or other distributed) energy production. Most solar (currently) is set up so that the residence can't use their solar in time of a local power outage - the system as is, can't perform repairs with live power generation distributed sporadically through the network.

There is a hard ceiling of reality when it comes to what is possible (given current investment). Shy of some new deal + WW2 levels of national spending, the grid is going to keep moving further away from being able to support the localized production scenarios described.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby minime » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:28 pm

As was described to me by an engineer of my local electrical co-operative, the initial burden (the consumer's local infrastructure) was the responsibility of the consumer, and involved, at the time, around an outlay of $750 USD more or less. Basically, it involved inserting a regulator into the circuit prior to the meter to prevent overload.

If what I was told is true--that the entire burden is on the consumer--then there is no question of investment in infrastructure. In fact, the opposite is true, consumer production of electricity mitigates the need for further hydroelectric or coal-powered energy.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Rory » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:57 pm

The grid is a large network of transmission lines, substations, transformers, etc.. this is the part that is sorely needing investment. While the part about the circuit/surge regulator is probably about right, this is a tiny part of the network. Chronic underinvestment means that large swathes of transmission lines are at breaking point - factor in extreme weather, further budget constraints (as costs rise) mean that most utilities are at breakeven point at best. That's not to say the private ones don't cream themselves off huge executive bonuses (see SoCalEdison). Another part to consider is the enormous cost of mothballing the dying nuclear plants - these costs have been kicked down the road for decades but there will be less money to spend on maintenance, let alone upgrading infrastructure.

I know the SoCal utility market pretty well and have some electrical engineer acquaintances - there is a constant budgetary battle to keep the lights on while mitigating the political pressure/consequences of raising rates to keep up with basic costs. Things are getting more expensive and people's ability to pay for this is increasingly stretched. Solar will be cost prohibitive for the vast majority of people before too long and its out of reach for many as is.

And, the big problem with solar is that demand would quickly outstrip supply should it become more common place. It currently receives a huge fossil fuel subsidy through the production/distribution side and requires access to other finite resources itself.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby slimmouse » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:05 pm

Hey Rory,

Thanks for that very sobering update.

Looks like we really need to get our shit together.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Rory » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:09 pm

Thanks, slimmouse

It won't happen, is my pragmatic viewpoint. The money needed to mitigate degradation, while allowing for more decentralized power generation, will be spent on vanity projects or subsumed in rising baseline costs. This stuff should have been ringfenced and protected for spending on upgrade costs alone. Now, the utilities themselves are barely able to keep up with keeping things running, business as usual.

There are a great many people with real talent and capacity for change, tied up in job roles that amount to keeping it all ticking over.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Rory » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:07 pm

Just to hit home the point about obsolete nuclear power plants most of the 100 plants in operation are due to be decommissioned by 2030. That's about 30% of the nation's electricity. And it will require around $1billion per plant in costs - though, those are industry estimates and you can be sure they don't include the multitude of externalities ignored in budgeting for these projects. San Onofre, is estimated to cost $4.4billion by its owner, SoCal Edison.

Conservative projection of this means we will be spending $100-400billion to remove electric power generation during the next 15 years - that's a net loss, not accounting for accidents or other unexpected raising of expenditure. That's money that won't be spent on maintenance, upgrades, and or new generating capacity. This power deficit cannot be met through solar, batteries, other uninvented/untested/non-existent tech.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Sounder » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:35 am

This power deficit cannot be met through solar, batteries, other uninvented/untested/non-existent tech.


The last part is a tautology and says nothing.


Thanks for your assessment of the So-Cal situation Rory.

My question, (to the proponents of the ‘religion of progress’), is when or how will new tech come into being if possibilities are denied from the get go?

Why do the proponents believe so devoutly in things that require the dismantling of civilization, rather than in possibilities that may build civilization?

Why does the work of Prof Alexander Parkhomov of Lomonosov Moscow State University deserve to be ignored?
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby Rory » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:38 am

World Nuclear, estimate US nuclear power production was around 800 billion kWh in 2014. The average usage (EIA estimate) in the US, is around 11000 kWh per capita energy consumption. That's around 70 million people's worth of nuclear power.

Local estimates for residential solar are at $5-7 per watt, before rebates and subsidies. You are talking hundreds of trillions of dollars to extrapolate those costs to meet the absence of nuclear power generation with solar - at replacement cycle of around 20 years. That is cost prohibitive and it just doesn't make sense. Why do we need to continue with current (or higher) per capita energy consumption.

Conservation and energy efficiency should be the way forward. We keep trying to replace one production paradigm with another. I shudder to think what the environmental cost of trying to bring 800 billion kWh's worth of solar in the next 15 years - and, the big ole elephant in the room is that 'renewables' get a huge fossil fuel energy subsidy: one that is unsustainable (at least, if they are to continue being called renewables).

We get back to the magic energy bean territory: even if we had this mythical zero point infinite energy tech readily available, would we really want it when you consider the destructive consequences? Consumerism. Growth based economic systems. All, off the hook. Military industrial complex - straddling the planet.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby slimmouse » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:01 pm

.
Consumerism. Growth based economic systems. All, off the hook. Military industrial complex - straddling the planet.


Im just dissapointed that we appear to be able to afford all the murder and suffering that war represents, but cant get the grid geared up a little better.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby justdrew » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:40 pm

slimmouse » 06 Feb 2015 10:01 wrote:.
Consumerism. Growth based economic systems. All, off the hook. Military industrial complex - straddling the planet.


Im just dissapointed that we appear to be able to afford all the murder and suffering that war represents, but cant get the grid geared up a little better.


right. it would cost something like 20% of the annual military budget to renew the grid, but this is considered "unaffordable" - it's crazy talk to call 100billion unaffordable.
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Re: Hoaxes or Creativity Suppressed?

Postby slimmouse » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:48 pm

Heres a nice link, which reinforces the idea of a more common indoctrination of the masses ( including the intellectuals), whilst speaking volumes about how we humans are being lied to and cheated daily. ( Imagine my shock)

Not to mention the entirely unneccesary rape of our planet.

Its the "global warming|", or is that the subsequently renamed "climate change" con exposed for the stupid irrelevance that it truly is- well at least it should be a stupid irrelevance in any sane human society. Then again what more proof does anyone need of an insane society, when its Trump vs Clinton for the most powerful idiot on Earth

I guess you either get it or you don't.

http://theunexplained.tv/paranormal-pod ... ree-energy
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