Montag Wrote:
I didn't know we had any insiders to anything (RI material) on Rigorous Intuition, lol... Good to know it.
There are quite a few MK Ultra survivors that post here.
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Montag Wrote:
I didn't know we had any insiders to anything (RI material) on Rigorous Intuition, lol... Good to know it.
hava1 wrote:sure, i believe we share views on that issue basically or i wouldnt comment at all (i stopped the habit of self torture, or trying to..), but sometimes the wording in context is important. I am struggling now, personally with the question of how and IF to integrate "skills" received in the course of lifelong control, and therefore I was alert, otherwise I would not have commented I suppose.
can the skills be turned around and used positively, can they even be turned against the controllers...such like, are the skills part of a false identity or are they part of the authentic needs that are harnessed, etc. Spiritually speaking, one can look at Moses as an example of tools aquired as slave, turned against the owners, but then he was not tortured.
Obama is a symbol for so much past slavery and abuses (as a black person) i think the issue is culturally very important, outside the crude assumption he was mk-victim (i doubt that, and I think there's a spectrum of mind control, sort of bell curve, and the extreme cases do not become presidents, they can at best function ok, but not more).
on edit - I woudnt assume all international cia children are mk victims. there's a certain overlap but these are twu issues that need to be adressed and are not. I(t might be easier to address the rights of CIA internationals in terms of money/status than to deal with mk, but I havent seen anything done about that, i once emailed a military website, forgot which, that deals with US veterans abroad and their rights, but they didnt answer .Free wrote:HAVA wrote:
I have to protest the description of the "programmed person" by Free. This board has had some people before who disparaged victims and even called for preemptive annhilation of some sort "for the good of all" etc. ( I think it was DE's campaign).
I believe that you've misunderstood my description and the intent behind it. This is one thing I deeply dislike about posting on the internet- it's very easy to be misunderstood.
The last thing I meant was that the victims of Trauma Based Mind Control should be blamed or scapegoated. That would be like saying that the prisoners who were tortured to death at Guantanamo are guilty of besmirching the US's reputation, that it's their fault.
No, that's not what I believe, far from it. All forms of torture and mind control should be revealed and made illegal, along with secret societies. Italy has a law against secret organizations. Other countries can institute them as well. The victims need support to heal and deprogram. Now we have to do the best we can on our own and it's far from easy.
Actually I would bet that our positions on this are similar. The reason I described the programming in the way I did was mainly for the benefit of the non-survivors here who may be struggling to understand this complex issue....and..I might add that it is my personal viewpoint.
Hava1 wrote:Obama is a symbol for so much past slavery and abuses (as a black person) i think the issue is culturally very important, outside the crude assumption he was mk-victim (i doubt that, and I think there's a spectrum of mind control, sort of bell curve, and the extreme cases do not become presidents, they can at best function ok, but not more).
Hava wrote:
Obama is a symbol for so much past slavery and abuses (as a black person) i think the issue is culturally very important, outside the crude assumption he was mk-victim (i doubt that, and I think there's a spectrum of mind control, sort of bell curve, and the extreme cases do not become presidents, they can at best function ok, but not more) .
Project Willow wrote:
I agree with this statement, except the shape of the curve, which is probably more exponential. I don't think O'Bama was subjected to brutal forms of MC, if at all. There are more traditional, non-MC ways of controlling people, and I think he falls in that category, although I understand the desire to imagine a measure of unconsciousness in his betrayal because it is so significant. Regardless of the methods, that presidents are wholly manufactured at this point, I have no doubt.
Free wrote:This is something I've often wondered about I.e. Is there a form of "mc lite", a watered down version of the brutal and relentless trauma based mind control we were subjected to? To make it effective, they would probably have to make sure that the subject became dissociative enough by traumatizing them sufficiently as an infant and young child, then I suppose they could let up on them.
Does anyone know about this?
.I am struggling now, personally with the question of how and IF to integrate "skills" received in the course of lifelong control...
can the skills be turned around and used positively, can they even be turned against the controllers...such like, are the skills part of a false identity or are they part of the authentic needs that are harnessed, etc. Spiritually speaking, one can look at Moses as an example of tools aquired as slave, turned against the owners, but then he was not tortured
American Dream wrote:I'm personally inclined to think that healthy personal growth often involves putting down "the Master's" tools completely and finding a whole new way to live instead, one which thoroughly repudiates the techniques of manipulation and deceit which the Controllers worked so hard to instill.
hava1 wrote:tools and alll. of course I think there are various coping strategies and I respect all the choices, including the choices that slaves made/make to remain slaves and survive. I think the adage "live free or die" is good for bumper-stickers. the chivalry codes have alwayd been crafted by the rulers, the colonizers, the "feodals" for their own privileged case, definitely not for the colonized and the ensalved. We have to make our own choices. i am briefly taking this discussion to the post colonial movement, with the debate on the use of English (the masters tool) by Indian thinkers and writers, more so by africans (in that case french and german, "world languages"). I concur with those who attempted to own the tools and write back to the empre, in its own language.
the demand for purity and authenticity is always cast on the slave, but not on the master.
That said, some tools, which someone feels are invoking a set of false identity, are better thrown out, if possible. people who were good painters or musicians should not stop painting or playing piano, for the sake of guilt trip abstract ideals. but little warriors better kick the killing habits, yet they can become kong fu teachers. Same goes for other skills. the motto i espouse is to feel happy and good about oneself, at last, and others' judgement, well...
i dont condone self mutilation, self degradation, self abuse or losing one's property and abilities or skills, in an attempt to purify, that's very unhealthy, but some rape victims do that, as well in the course of recovery, some cut themselves to rid of the guilt of the body etc. I don't pass judgement on that as well. i'd be wary of destructive advice given bona fide, unless the advice includes a concrete viable alternative.
whatever gets one through the night, is fine.
I'm personally inclined to think that healthy personal growth often involves putting down "the Master's" tools completely and finding a whole new way to live instead, one which thoroughly repudiates the techniques of manipulation and deceit which the Controllers worked so hard to instill.
Audre Lorde famously said "The Master's tools will never dismantle the Master's house".
There are some very, very important truths contained in those words.
The big problem with these sorts of tools is that they are instilled for use in a cold-hearted and amoral manner- indeed this seems to be a basic operating principle of The Cult. So how then can one use the Master's tools in a way that is truly moral? How does using these tools help one recover basic human empathy and honor after a lifetime of association with truly evil goals, instilled through horrific forms of training?
I'm personally inclined to think that healthy personal growth often involves putting down "the Master's" tools completely and finding a whole new way to live instead, one which thoroughly repudiates the techniques of manipulation and deceit which the Controllers worked so hard to instill.
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