AA's ties to fascism

[crikkett]

The real present danger in the recovery community is a bunch calling themselves Teen Challenge, they're everywhere, have some big dollars behind them, and they're Kwaaaazy Kwistians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Challenge

I agree. I spoke to one girl who told me how she had to work for no pay when she wasn't in front of my grocery store begging for money without proper protection from the elements.

My husband had a hard time talking me down from that one.

[Mythic Time]

someone sounds a bit defensive.

and AA's central component IS a belief in a higher power. I've been to hundreds of meetings myself and people try to paint in all sorts of light, but it always comes back to being "powerless" and "giving yourself over to a higher power". For christ's sake, how many times is god mentioned in the freakin' twelve steps?!

not religious or spiritual my ass.

As always, we hear from people who failed to follow the program and then become experts, like the bomb squad washout with no arms who lectures everyone else about how to handle explosives, leaving out the relevant information to focus on bullshit. For someone who claims to have been to hundreds of meetings, you must have been loaded to consciously ignore the literature's basic tenets.

Can you please refer me to where in any Anonymous Program's literature it says "Giving yourself over to a Higher Power?" You can't, because it doesn't exist.

"A Power Greater Than Ourselves" is what the literature says. This wording specifically allows the recovering member TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN HIGHER POWER. It can be nothing, or the pop machine down the hall, the Group, or, like me, the Spirituality of Shamanism expressed through Nature's critters.

I have almost 15 years Clean, and have actually WORKED (you know, the 12 Steps require WORK, not bullshitting in the lobby) three different programs, based on Geography and Spiritual growth. I did what millions of others did when I joined my first Fellowship; I got the book, got a Sponsor, and WORKED the 12 steps, and, oh look, I've never relapsed, and I attribute that ENTIRELY to the Spirituality of the Program.

Religion is in fact what Bill W. tried to promote in the genesis of AA, and he was roundly attacked by Agnostics and Atheists who demanded the removal of Christianity and the inclusion of Spirituality, OR NOTHING. As an "expert" on the 12 Steps, you must know about the "We Agnostics" reading in the Big Book, right?

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

The one that says, in part:

"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, how-ever limited it was."

So, in all those hundreds of meetings did nobody ever mention this foundational literature? Or were you too busy hustling Newcomers to notice?

You destroy your argument by deliberately ignoring what the Step actually says: Again..."...TURN OUR WILL AND OUR LIVES OVER..." This passage is the doorway through which Recovery flows. If I turn my Will and Life over to the CARE of a Higher Power, I then interact with a loving, benevolent Universe which is non-judgmental and validating, and which creates the underpinnings of the extremely difficult task of FINALLY getting honest about my life in successive Steps. I bet you've never worked a single Step, since you reject Powerlessness.

I repeat, AS WE UNDERSTAND GOD allows us to CHOOSE a Higher Power of our own understanding, and in my Recovery, I use the term "Spirit" as the relevant touchpoint. You obviously refused to turn your Will and Life over to the Care of a Higher Power, because your views clearly show someone drowning in Ego who is cherry-picking and distorting ideas from the literature to taint the entire concept of the 12 Steps.

Quitting drugs (alcohol is a drug) without working the program is like standing in a burning house and pouring water on only yourself; you may not be burning, but your character defects are still aflame. Obviously.

And I do not give a flying fuck about the statistics of Recovery. I was an active addict for 35 years. By following the Program, I now have almost 15 years Clean. I have been 100% successful in Recovery, and everyone who does the WORK Honestly and Willingly has the same results.

I admitted Powerlessness, found a Higher Power of my own understanding, did my inventories, turned my character defects over, made my amends, and began to freely give away what I had gained in order to keep it. I currently sponsor three people whose lives have become immeasurably better because they wanted what I have, and did the relevant WORK to create it.

Who the fuck wants what you have? Anyone?

[Searcher08]

And I do not give a flying fuck about the statistics of Recovery. I was an active addict for 35 years. By following the Program, I now have almost 15 years Clean. I have been 100% successful in Recovery, and everyone who does the WORK Honestly and Willingly has the same results.

Just wanted to acknowledge you for this. Magnificent achievement.

[Grizzly]

Lack of internal power was our dilemma ...

I have found, 'Many roads, one journey: moving beyond the twelve steps' by author, Charlotte Davis Kasl, which studies the impact of recovery programs on individual lives and explains how to adapt the principles of the Twelve-Step process to personal needs. To be of significant help. She pulls no punches, however does indeed show that the 12 step programs do help many, but has to be seen in light of a continuum. A stage or stages or phases of development.

The idea that spirituality has stages was originated by James Fowler in his book Stages of Faith; it was further developed by Kenneth Stokes in Faith Is a Verb. My descriptions are adapted from Many Roads, One Journey, by Charlotte Davis Kasl; the quotations that follow come from her book. There are six levels of spiritual development, corresponding to chronological ages.

The Innocent, age 1 to 6: Children believe
what they’re told with few or no questions. Their goal is to be just like their parents. Authority rests entirely outside the child. This is called an external locus of control.

The Literalist, age 6 to 11 or 12: This stage “is characterized by concrete, literal thinking.” (29) Children begin to look outside the family for other authority figures, but authority is still almost entirely external. People in this stage believe there is only one way to do or be, and they belong to that righteous group. When people say, “[Authority figure] said it. I believe it. That settles it,” they are expressing a belief from this stage of development.

This is the stage many PEOPLE are stuck in.

[b]The Loyalist[/b], ages 11 or 12 to 15 or 16: In this stage, authority is still largely external, but peers become the most important authority figures. Loyalty to the peer group is paramount. Betraying one’s peers is the ultimate sin deserving of the ultimate punishment—such as permanent scarification.

words like, "traitor” et, al, Is often used in this stage..

In stages 1 to 3, people are convinced their beliefs and group are unassailably right, and if you aren’t like them, you’re automatically wrong. Their rightness and your wrongness gives them the right to remake you in their own image.

The Critic, ages 16 to 20s and 30s: This is when people begin questioning the beliefs they were raised with and trying to find their own way to live and think. It requires courage and willingness twice over: to look honestly at what you’ve been taught and decide if it’s right for you, and (if necessary) to break free from those learned beliefs and find your own way, even if it’s difficult and painful. Internal authority begins to be more important than external authority.

Many people never reach this stage. They stay stuck in stages 1 to 3 and never learn to think for themselves.

The Seer, usually not before age 30: This is an integration of all the earlier stages; because of that, people may shift back and forth between stages 3, 4, and 5 depending on life circumstances such as feelings of stress or security. While certain aspects of life, such as relationships, tastes, and career may change, the person has a deep inner core of beliefs that do not change and that guide hir life.(…)

Universalizing Faith, usually not reached at all: This happens when a person becomes “one with the spirit. Values, beliefs, and the actions become one.” (33) “They are at one with their spirit, their love, and their purpose. They live by faith and without fear.”

Often, the different levels/stages of faith conflict. People at stage 2 "adhere to words literally. People at stage 4 question and become disillusioned. People at stage 2 of faithing are threatened by people at stage four. People don't usually get along well with people two stages apart." Kasl writes.

AA and other 12 step programs have saved my life, e.g., given me a quality of life I would have never experienced without help, however, I also know that they are not for everyone. There are many ways to the top of the mountain.

[Grizzly]

[Mythic Time]

Lack of internal power was our dilemma ...

I have found, 'Many roads, one journey: moving beyond the twelve steps' by author, Charlotte Davis Kasl, which studies the impact of recovery programs on individual lives and explains how to adapt the principles of the Twelve-Step process to personal needs. To be of significant help. She pulls no punches, however does indeed show that the 12 step programs do help many, but has to be seen in light of a continuum. A stage or stages or phases of development.

The idea that spirituality has stages was originated by James Fowler in his book Stages of Faith; it was further developed by Kenneth Stokes in Faith Is a Verb. My descriptions are adapted from Many Roads, One Journey, by Charlotte Davis Kasl; the quotations that follow come from her book. There are six levels of spiritual development, corresponding to chronological ages.

The Innocent, age 1 to 6: Children believe
what they’re told with few or no questions. Their goal is to be just like their parents. Authority rests entirely outside the child. This is called an external locus of control.

The Literalist, age 6 to 11 or 12: This stage “is characterized by concrete, literal thinking.” (29) Children begin to look outside the family for other authority figures, but authority is still almost entirely external. People in this stage believe there is only one way to do or be, and they belong to that righteous group. When people say, “[Authority figure] said it. I believe it. That settles it,” they are expressing a belief from this stage of development.

This is the stage many PEOPLE are stuck in.

[b]The Loyalist[/b], ages 11 or 12 to 15 or 16: In this stage, authority is still largely external, but peers become the most important authority figures. Loyalty to the peer group is paramount. Betraying one’s peers is the ultimate sin deserving of the ultimate punishment—such as permanent scarification.

words like, "traitor” et, al, Is often used in this stage..

In stages 1 to 3, people are convinced their beliefs and group are unassailably right, and if you aren’t like them, you’re automatically wrong. Their rightness and your wrongness gives them the right to remake you in their own image.

The Critic, ages 16 to 20s and 30s: This is when people begin questioning the beliefs they were raised with and trying to find their own way to live and think. It requires courage and willingness twice over: to look honestly at what you’ve been taught and decide if it’s right for you, and (if necessary) to break free from those learned beliefs and find your own way, even if it’s difficult and painful. Internal authority begins to be more important than external authority.

Many people never reach this stage. They stay stuck in stages 1 to 3 and never learn to think for themselves.

The Seer, usually not before age 30: This is an integration of all the earlier stages; because of that, people may shift back and forth between stages 3, 4, and 5 depending on life circumstances such as feelings of stress or security. While certain aspects of life, such as relationships, tastes, and career may change, the person has a deep inner core of beliefs that do not change and that guide hir life.(…)

Universalizing Faith, usually not reached at all: This happens when a person becomes “one with the spirit. Values, beliefs, and the actions become one.” (33) “They are at one with their spirit, their love, and their purpose. They live by faith and without fear.”

Often, the different levels/stages of faith conflict. People at stage 2 "adhere to words literally. People at stage 4 question and become disillusioned. People at stage 2 of faithing are threatened by people at stage four. People don't usually get along well with people two stages apart." Kasl writes.

AA and other 12 step programs have saved my life, e.g., given me a quality of life I would have never experienced without help, however, I also know that they are not for everyone. There are many ways to the top of the mountain.

Well said, and thanks for the expansion of the Recovery concept. My own path through the Steps graduated from the original program to a far deeper examination of Codependency, which has a much more brutal self-examination (IMO) than a substance program does. Ballpark, I would estimate that less than 1% of 12 Steppers move into this deeper work, and if they do, they find the rewards as deep as the work. But it is fucking HARD.

In my case, I discovered an entirely different childhood than I remembered, because I had a totally normal family of origin, no abuse, no substances, Mom-Dad presence and support. How could addictions arise from this pristine existence?

But I was the only freckle-faced redhead in sight. NOBODY looked like me. No tribal associations, no tribal support mechanism. So the underlying feeling was Shame. Something was horribly wrong with me. But then at 17, I found the hippies, and all was well. But I became a serious drug addict who coincidentally could play the shit out of the electric guitar, full cloaking in play.

Until my daughter got sober and made amends. I decided I wanted what she had, found my own original program, and got serious about Recovery. Seven years in I found CoDA, and that became the lens through which I could finally see and accept my real childhood. So the Codependency came before, and caused, the addictions, in my case.

Oh, I still have character defects, but they no longer rule me. And if this old hippie can get clean after 33 years, anyone who wants to get Honest can do the same thing.

[Sounder]

Thank-you so much Grizzly and Mythic Time.

There is nothing better in life than the honesty required for embodying spiritual growth. (Nothing quite so painful either, I suppose.)

Now can somebody tell me again how that connects to fascism?


On edit; OK, I refreshed myself on the content of this thread, and as usual, liked what Slomo has to say.

On writing the last post, I came to a somewhat chilling recognition. I acknowledge that some people may "need" AA. Might that be true of populations? And if we, as a culture, are totally out-of-touch emotionally and out-of-control behaviorally, is a fascist correction therefore inevitable?

We as a culture have created a split in reality and try to find our way back to wholeness by stuffing the gap (with transitional objects). For the great majority, intellect and emotions conflict rather than support and balance each other. (That is why some very 'smart' people are prone to joining cults.)

In the current context a correction would probably be fascist, so we change the context.

[DrEvil]

On writing the last post, I came to a somewhat chilling recognition. I acknowledge that some people may "need" AA. Might that be true of populations? And if we, as a culture, are totally out-of-touch emotionally and out-of-control behaviorally, is a fascist correction therefore inevitable?

I agree with this: For as long as we've been "civilized" we have had more or less fascist rule (under different names - monarchies, priesthoods, etc.).

What if our (western) ethical and moral guidelines have overtaken human nature? We impose a set of rules on ourselves that contradict our basest instincts, and as a result we get a fascist correction, back to the "baseline" of our nature.

[Twyla LaSarc]

The real present danger in the recovery community is a bunch calling themselves Teen Challenge, they're everywhere, have some big dollars behind them, and they're Kwaaaazy Kwistians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Challenge

I agree. I spoke to one girl who told me how she had to work for no pay when she wasn't in front of my grocery store begging for money without proper protection from the elements.

My husband had a hard time talking me down from that one.

At my work yesterday: a flyer advertising something called "Mission United States" that will provide communal housing and a couple of meals in exchange for selling their literature for a certain number of hours a day.

[Iamwhomiam]

I'm more than a bit overwhelmed reading your personal accounts of addiction and congratulate all who have overcome their addictions. To you and those still fighting their demons, you have my blessings and with love in my heart I will pray you'll find the peace and freedom you seek in overcoming your addictions.

My only addiction is to poverty. No vows necessary and no cure possible in this life.

[slomo]

OK, I will admit to something that I did not want to in my earlier posts. At a time in my life when I thought I might have an unhealthy relationship with sex, I went to a few SLAA meetings. I found them to be exactly like Waugs described, culty and obsessed with personal disempowerment. In addition, the members were cliquish and non-welcoming, except for the ones that were interested in sex with me, thus reinforcing the dynamic I later identified: that my interest in inappropriate sex was in direct proportion to my starvation for real human affection.

There is no mystery to addiction. It is indeed a spiritual problem, but not the one that AA and SLAA insist on. "Giving yourself over to a higher power" is not the same thing as having the emotional freedom to recognize, accept, create, nurture, and sustain love, meaning, and connectedness in your social environment. Sometimes these dynamics will be congruent, but oftentimes they will lie in direct opposition to each other.

It's quite interesting to read something I wrote 4.5 years ago, in what I view as a radically different stage of my life. My present circumstances reinforce the previous observation. Married to a guy who offers more "real human affection" than I probably deserve, I have zero interest in "inappropriate sex".

I will make a sweeping statement: all psychological maladjustment, except for the very most organic sort (e.g. schizophrenia), is the result of unmet needs. Some of the obstacles to meeting such needs may be internal in the sense that they are based in psychological dynamics that were set up as a defense mechanism at an earlier stage in life, but ultimately they are "rational" if viewed from the correct internal/subjective perspective. But many obstacles are in fact external, i.e. based on social patterns over which an individual may have very little control.

This is to say that we live in society that is far more cruel than it needs to be, and we assign people the status of "crazy" or "addicted" simply because it's easier to dismiss people with a label than it is to actually listen to what their experience has been.