Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

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Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby 82_28 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:50 am

Going to Mars ... on a one-way trip

Alan Boyle writes: Will the first explorers to visit Mars come back to Earth? Or does it actually make more sense to leave them there? The idea of sending the Red Planet's first settlers on one-way trips has been kicking around for years, and now two researchers have published a paper in the Journal of Cosmology laying out how such missions could play out between now and 2035.

"It is important to realize that this is not a 'suicide mission,'" Washington State University's Dirk Schulze-Makuch and Arizona State University's Paul Davies write. "The astronauts would go to Mars with the intention of staying for the rest of their lives, as trailblazers of a permanent human Mars colony."

In a WSU news release, Davies said the concept follows the model set by past human settlements of new lands. "It would really be little different from the first white settlers of the North American continent, who left Europe with little expectation of return," he said.

Back in the mid-1990s, rocket scientist and Mars Society founder Robert Zubrin pointed out that "colonization is, by definition, a one-way trip," and since then experts have debated the best way to do one-way. Four years ago, X Prize co-founder Peter Diamandis suggested setting up a private-sector "Mars Citizenship Program," with volunteers kicking in from $10,000 to $1 million each, About 100 candidates would be chosen by lottery to take the trip to a Red Planet colony prepared for them by robots. (Scroll down through this Cosmic Log archive for details, plus reader reaction.)

Davies' colleague at ASU, theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss, caused a stir last year by reviving the idea of one-way trips to Mars. Because much of the anticipated cost of a voyage to Mars was wrapped up in getting the voyagers back home again, eliminating the return trip would make the mission much more affordable. What's more, he suggested that the Mars voyagers might not be fit enough to make the return trip, due to radiation exposure. "As cruel as it may sound, the astronauts would probably best use their remaining time living and working on Mars rather than dying at home," Krauss wrote in his New York Times op-ed.

Schulze-Makuch and Davies don't think life on Mars would be so bad, judging by the scenario they lay out:

* First, robots would identify a suitable location for a colony, based on the availability of a natural shelter (such as a lava tube cave) and the availability of water (in the form of ice, of course) as well as minerals and nutrients. Robo-construction crews could make the place habitable for humans.
* The first one-way missions might involved two spaceships, each with a two-person crew. One of the astronauts should be a trained physician, and all of them should have scientific and technical know-how as well as a passion for research and exploration.
* Those first colonists should be beyond reproductive age, due to the concerns about radiation as well as reduced life expectancy in a frontier environment.

With time, a series of cave-centered biospheres could be built for the growing Martian community, with beefed-up radiation protection. "Probably several decades after the first human mission, the colony's population might have expanded to about 150 individuals, which would constitute a viable gene pool to allow the possibility of a successful long-term reproduction program," the researchers write. "New arrivees and possibly the use of genetic engineering would further enhance genetic variety and contribute to the health and longevity of the colonists."

Schulze-Makuch and Davies say the Mars colony would provide a long-term base for exploring the Red Planet and looking for traces of ancient or extant life. It would serve as an insurance policy for the species, just in case a killer asteroid or a killer virus endangered life on Earth. And it also could "offer a springboard for human/robotic exploration of the outer solar system and the asteroid belt."

The researchers don't delve into the costs or the detailed logistics for one-way missions, but they do note that NASA's space vision calls for just the kinds of heavy-lift rockets and robotic capabilities that would mesh with future voyages to Mars. "We estimate that a reasonable time line for establishing a permanent unmanned base with robots would be 20 years, with the first human contingent arriving shortly thereafter," they write. "The main impediment is the narrow vision and the culture of political caution that now pervades the space programs of most nations."

Would you agree? Or would it be even tougher to find intelligent, healthy volunteers willing to spend the rest of their lives on a frozen, radiation-blasted world? Whenever we've posed this question before, a fair number of people say they'd definitely go. Four years ago, 374 of the 1,169 msnbc.com users who responded to a Live Vote said they'd be willing to "pay a substantial price" for a one-way trip, assuming that the risk was acceptable. This time around, I'd love to hear your reasons for taking the one-way trip. (Or not taking it!) Just leave a comment below.


http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... e-way-trip
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Ben D » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:37 am

So far as I'm aware. the long term plan was always based on permanent habitation and settlement of extraterrestrial bases.

One plan that I have a copy of called the Integrated Space Plan commissioned by the first Bush President covers the basic milestones and timeline for a hundred year period from late 1980s.

Roughly it envisages setting up a Lunar Base followed by a space station at one of the Lagrange points. Then it is a base on Phobos to prepare and oversee the setting up of a permanent base on the surface of Mars. By the middle of the century, children will have been born on all these bases and probably will never be able to visit Earth due to its gravity so this period is noted as the transition from a Terrestrial human species to a Solar one.

However as things are working out, the progress for moving off planet is unfolding much more slowly then was envisaged back then. Also both China and Russia have plans of their own so who knows, it may end up being a truly cooperative effort?
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Nordic » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:36 pm

Mars would make a fine prison.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby beeline » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:18 pm

.

How do I go about getting my ticket again?
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:50 pm

Did anyone really believe otherwise?

I mean, until Charles Fort Jaunte presents his research findings.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:50 pm

Thanks for triggering 8 pages of notes on Mars colonization today...fascinating area.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby freemason9 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:03 pm

i can't even imagine why anyone would believe we will ever put humans on mars
The real issue is that there is extremely low likelihood that the speculations of the untrained, on a topic almost pathologically riddled by dynamic considerations and feedback effects, will offer anything new.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Ben D » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:44 pm

freemason9 wrote:i can't even imagine why anyone would believe we will ever put humans on mars


Er...perhaps because as the technologies that are required to do so become available, it becomes inevitable to explore existence beyond the limited confines of planet Earth. :yay

P.S. Who is we?
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby slomo » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:31 am

Ben D wrote:
freemason9 wrote:i can't even imagine why anyone would believe we will ever put humans on mars


Er...perhaps because as the technologies that are required to do so become available, it becomes inevitable to explore existence beyond the limited confines of planet Earth. :yay

P.S. Who is we?

Explore, maybe. But colonize? I doubt it. We are deluding ourselves if we think we exist, in any meaningful sense, independently of the terrestrial biosphere. "We are one" is not a platitude, it is a reality, when you consider the complexity of biochemical and geochemical cycles required to support human life as well as all other life.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby justdrew » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:59 am

slomo wrote:
Ben D wrote:
freemason9 wrote:i can't even imagine why anyone would believe we will ever put humans on mars


Er...perhaps because as the technologies that are required to do so become available, it becomes inevitable to explore existence beyond the limited confines of planet Earth. :yay

P.S. Who is we?

Explore, maybe. But colonize? I doubt it. We are deluding ourselves if we think we exist, in any meaningful sense, independently of the terrestrial biosphere. "We are one" is not a platitude, it is a reality, when you consider the complexity of biochemical and geochemical cycles required to support human life as well as all other life.



without the natural massive reserves of bacteria (and virus) in the earth environment, it's hard to see how long term, as in years or decades, people would do off world. There are after all more bacteria in each of us than cells, and maintaining the needed balance of species, about which we know very very little IIRC, would seem a huge challenge.

Medically what is known about persons who've undergone significant or complete bacterial de-population?
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:09 am

slomo wrote:Explore, maybe. But colonize? I doubt it. We are deluding ourselves if we think we exist, in any meaningful sense, independently of the terrestrial biosphere. "We are one" is not a platitude, it is a reality, when you consider the complexity of biochemical and geochemical cycles required to support human life as well as all other life.


True. But. There is no other species as qualified (or as arrogant) as humanity for that particular task. I put it at 20% probability, myself.

Invasive species are not a problem in a hostile environment and we could definitely seed the landscape with extremophile specimens uniquely suited and pre-selected for Martian colonization. Follow that up with a mycelium seeding program and I don't think Terraforming needs to be locked in the sci-fi attic of possible futures. I think that "nano-tech" fantasies are a joke, but martian permaculture? Not so much. 20%, like I said. It's there.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby 82_28 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:36 am

If it's gonna happen at all, it's gotta happen sometime. I would put the ability to place a base and future colony on Mars a little higher than 20% though. However, this kind of shit is rife with the possibility of psy-op. It could completely be simulated for the people "on Earth". They could also disclose we've been there all along. I think getting to Mars is completely possible. However, the bacteria question is definitely interesting.

It sure makes for a damned good sci-fi story. Robots preparing a hovel, humans getting there finding that the robots have conspired against them, robots kill humans, war breaks out on Earth etc etc etc. . .
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Ben D » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:39 am

slomo wrote:
Ben D wrote:
freemason9 wrote:i can't even imagine why anyone would believe we will ever put humans on mars


Er...perhaps because as the technologies that are required to do so become available, it becomes inevitable to explore existence beyond the limited confines of planet Earth. :yay

P.S. Who is we?

Explore, maybe. But colonize? I doubt it. We are deluding ourselves if we think we exist, in any meaningful sense, independently of the terrestrial biosphere. "We are one" is not a platitude, it is a reality, when you consider the complexity of biochemical and geochemical cycles required to support human life as well as all other life.


Slomo, not sure if ths addresses the points you raise but fwiw I brushed the dust of the ISP {Integrated Space Plan 1989 ) I referred to on an earlier post. The plan is on one large sheet and is the most complicated flow chart I've ever dealt with so I can't but take a few 'snapshots' here and there to see what it has on the human ecological support and environmental questions.

It shows....

A PC CELSS (Partially Closed Control Ecological Life Support System was to be developed for the ISS (International Space Station). This presumably is presently in use.

A NC ECLSS (Near Closed Environemental Control and Life Support System) is to be developed for a Lunar Base by about 2018.

And a Closed Loop Life Support System is to developed by 2030 for use with the Mars Base and the L4/L5 Libration Point Space Habitat.

And BTW as a matter of interest, I notice on the plan that the manned landing on an Asteroid that the Obama administration announced for NASA is a very essential part of long term future plans to do with Mars.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby slomo » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:28 am

This Wikipedia article ends up being quite interesting and relevant to the topic. I originally sought it out in order to review a brief history of Biosphere 2 (the closed ecosystem that was built in Arizona in the 90s). The article illustrates some of the difficulties in setting up a functional ecosystem. Keep in mind that this system was not truly "closed" in the sense that there were always resources nearby to fix problems that arose (e.g. low oxygen levels caused by failing to properly factor in microbial respiration). Such nearby resources would not exist on Mars. I will acknowledge that science/engineering rarely gets things right on the first or even second iteration. But keep in mind that elements of the terrestrial biosphere are so complicated, involving so many complex interactions on a vast range of time scales, that it is simply hubris to think that humans will ever fully understand them to a sufficient degree of detail that we could reliably replicate them off-world.

However, this section of the Wikipedia article stood out:

One view of Biosphere 2 was that it was "the most exciting scientific project to be undertaken in the U.S. since President John F. Kennedy launched us toward the moon".[30] Others called it "New Age drivel masquerading as science".[31] The Institute for Ecotechnics, which awarded Margret Augustine and other Biospherians their "science credentials", was shown by a CBC documentary to be nothing more than an art gallery and café in London.[32] John Allen did have mainstream credentials: a degree in Metallurgical-Mining Engineering from the Colorado School of Mines, and an MBA from the Harvard Business School.[13][33]

Further damaging the credentials of the participants, Marc Cooper wrote[34] that "the group that built, conceived, and directs the Biosphere project is not a group of high-tech researchers on the cutting edge of science but a clique of recycled theater performers that evolved out of an authoritarian – and decidedly non-scientific – personality cult". He was referring to the Synergia Ranch in New Mexico, an outpost of the Institute of Ecotechnics where indeed many of the Biospherians did practice improv theater under John Allen's leadership, and began to develop the ideas behind Biosphere 2.[35]

One of their own scientific consultants came to be critical of the enterprise, too. Dr. Ghillean Prance, director of the Royal Botanical Gardens in Kew, designed the rainforest biome inside the Biosphere. In a 1983 interview, Prance said, "I was attracted to the Institute of Ecotechnics because funds for research were being cut and the institute seemed to have a lot of money which it was willing to spend freely. Along with others, I was ill-used. Their interest in science is not genuine. They seem to have some sort of secret agenda, they seem to be guided by some sort of religious or philosophical system."[36]

This suggets Biosphere 2 may be a topic worthy of RI research and discussion.

Why am I so negative about this, and why do I care to comment if I'm so sure that we will fail to colonize other planets? Because this dream of colonization reflects a destructive ideology. First, it reveals a form of ultimate arrogance and hubris, presupposing that human life could actually be separated from all other terrestrial biological and chemical processes. This notion of separate identity represents, in my view, a grave spiritual error. Second, it encourages a notion that the earth is somehow disposable. If we can colonize other planets, why bother respecting our home planet? We can simply move on from planet to planet, extracting all the available extropic energy to the point of exhaustion. This impulse is ultimately vampiric. It would be a spiritual disaster for humanity, and a physical catastrophe for the galaxy, if humanity were to succeed at colonization.
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Re: Mars apparently to be colonized not just visited

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:27 am

Just wanted to engage -- not saying you're wrong, just that I disagree.

Because this dream of colonization reflects a destructive ideology. First, it reveals a form of ultimate arrogance and hubris, presupposing that human life could actually be separated from all other terrestrial biological and chemical processes. This notion of separate identity represents, in my view, a grave spiritual error.


Odds are pretty even that our terrestrial biological and chemical process were imported in the first place. Certainly our ecosystem is not importable, but Life is. I think that's an interesting and worthy project.

There is no future for white culture in space, but there's no future for white culture anywhere else, either.

Second, it encourages a notion that the earth is somehow disposable.


Could be. I think it also reflects the notion that the earth is not a permanent home. That our Life here is incredibly fragile.

Calling it "Colonization" is definitely hubris. I'm thinking of Martian Permaculture...Cosmic Seedbombs. I also don't have a lot of funding...but you know what? That's the biggest lesson of Biosphere 2 (or the Raelians) -- it doesn't take a lot, and fringe projects can get way more done than they ever expected. I might be a weirdo but at least my plan is more feasable than Crackers in Space visions of a new frontier.
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