A new planet has scientists agog

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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:14 pm

Burnt Hill wrote: This one (name yet?)


Jim.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby NaturalMystik » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:16 pm

I prefer Agog...
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:32 pm

Image

Image
Jim
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Burnt Hill » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:08 pm

MacCruiskeen » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:14 pm wrote:
Burnt Hill wrote: This one (name yet?)


Jim.


Well the telescope that will potentially verify it is on Mauna Kea, so the name Pele has been suggested,
but Jim is good too.
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby justdrew » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 pm

ok. We KNOW they're agog, but are they also agape?

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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:20 am

Right or wrong, planets are all named for Romanized versions of classical Greek divinities. It's sad pondering how dark it is out there - darker even than Pluto's Hades - and how hopelessly far away this still-hypothetical rock is, that we will surely never, ever see directly, let alone visit. So remote. So alone. So cold. So I guess we will be naming it after the Greek spirit of sorrow. Melancholia.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:01 pm

Luther Blissett » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am wrote:Does the academy have a memory leak? When I saw this news this morning I knew there was a legitimate, non-Niburu thread on it here, I just couldn't remember the name Tyche.

I'm a little puzzled as to why no mention of Tyche.


Obviously, the Greeks are no longer favored as the prime classical culture's language we had chosen to use for naming new discoveries. After the Aryan bailouts, they lost all their class.

Everyone knows ya can't be classic without any class.

But anyone, as I've just demonstrated, can be a classical ass. In fact, part of being an ass requires of one to be of no class at all.

A classless ass.
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Laodicean » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:14 pm



:playingknight:
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:24 pm

As much as I want to watch the video, Lao, I'll pass. The subtitle says it all.
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:04 pm

http://www.andylloyd.org/darkstarblog34.htm

Massive Planet X Now Urgently Sought by Top Planet-Hunters

We seem to be getting very close now to a discovery of a massive Planet X in the outer solar system. I heard this report on the evening BBC news, a slot which indicates the seriousness with which this subject is now being taken by the scientific community:

"American astronomers say they have strong evidence that there is a ninth planet in our Solar System orbiting far beyond even the dwarf world Pluto. The team, from the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), has no direct observations to confirm its presence just yet. Rather, the scientists make the claim based on the way other far-flung objects are seen to move. But if correct, the putative planet would have 10 times the mass of Earth.

"The Caltech astronomers have a vague idea where it ought to be on the sky, and their work is sure to fire a campaign to try to track it down. "There are many telescopes on the Earth that actually have a chance of being able to find it," said Dr Mike Brown. "And I'm really hoping that as we announce this, people start a worldwide search to go find this ninth planet."

The group's calculations suggest the object orbits 20 times farther from the Sun on average than does the eighth - and currently outermost - planet, Neptune, which moves about 4.5 billion km from our star. But unlike the near-circular paths traced by the main planets, this novel object would be in a highly elliptical trajectory, taking between 10,000 and 20,000 years to complete one full lap around the Sun." (1)

Dr Mike Brown is a premier academic planet-hunter, and for him to make this public pronouncement is quite unprecedented. One can only assume that his team have experienced a leak of their information, nudging him to go public with a paper in the Astronomical Journal (2). After all, it is only one month since similar speculation - that time by scientists working at the large array at Atacama in Chile - was widely criticised by astronomers for being presumptuous (3). Why risk similar criticism if they're not sure of what they're proposing? There is clearly heightened excitement going on at the moment, with the stakes running very high indeed. Here's what Dr Mike Brown said last month about the two proposals put forward by the Atacama teams:

"Mike Brown, a prominent California Institute of Technology astronomer and self-described “Pluto killer” who discovered several large TNOs that dethroned the former planet, unleashed another statistical argument against the claimed new planets on Twitter. “If it is true that ALMA accidentally discovered a massive outer solar system object in its tiny, tiny, tiny, field of view,” Brown tweeted, “that would suggest that there are something like 200,000 Earth-sized planets in the outer solar system. Which, um, no.

""Even better,” he added later, “I just realized that this many Earth-sized planets existing would destabilize the entire solar system and we would all die.” That said, Brown notes, “the idea that there might be large planets lurking in the outer solar system is perfectly plausible.”" (4)

So, whilst acknowledging the real potential for the presence of undiscovered large planets out there, he was sceptical that the Atacama team had been lucky enough to stumble upon such an object given the tiny fields of view they were studying when they picked these blips up. It is now clear that he has been on the hunt for this object himself for some time.

Dr Brown's interest lies in the anomalous movements of the extended scattered disk objects lying just beyond the Kuiper Belt, as well as non-random clustering of some of the KBOs themselves (2). I would hazard a guess that as more of these objects are verified (many by his team, no doubt) an increasingly discernible pattern is emerging, suggestive of the presence of a large planet. That work is clearly on-going:

"Continued analysis of both distant and highly inclined outer solar system objects provides the opportunity for testing our hypothesis as well as further constraining the orbital elements and mass of the distant planet." (2)

He seems to have an idea of where this 'Planet Nine', as he's calling it, is located; how big it is; how long it takes to move around the Sun (in it's "highly elliptical orbit"), and how far away it lies.

Dr Brown has been working closely with dynamicist Dr Konstantin Batygin for some time on this Planet X puzzle, according to the Caltech press release:

""Although we were initially quite skeptical that this planet could exist, as we continued to investigate its orbit and what it would mean for the outer solar system, we become increasingly convinced that it is out there," says Batygin, an assistant professor of planetary science. "For the first time in over 150 years, there is solid evidence that the solar system's planetary census is incomplete."

"...Batygin and Brown realized that the six most distant objects from [Chad] Trujillo and [Scott] Shepherd's original collection [of distant KBOs] all follow elliptical orbits that point in the same direction in physical space. That is particularly surprising because the outermost points of their orbits move around the solar system, and they travel at different rates.

"It's almost like having six hands on a clock all moving at different rates, and when you happen to look up, they're all in exactly the same place," says Brown. The odds of having that happen are something like 1 in 100, he says. But on top of that, the orbits of the six objects are also all tilted in the same way—pointing about 30 degrees downward in the same direction relative to the plane of the eight known planets. The probability of that happening is about 0.007 percent. "Basically it shouldn't happen randomly," Brown says. "So we thought something else must be shaping these orbits."" (5)

Some of this data will sound eerily reminiscent of Zecharia Sitchin's work (6) - particularly the 30 degree downward tilt of the undiscovered planet's gravitational influence. It's highly elliptical. It's at least ten times the Earth's mass, they think (2). It's located about 600 Astronomical Units away, they think, with an orbit of tens of thousands of years - more like my own conclusions some years ago, as I came to realise that Sitchin's assumption of a 3600 year orbit was likely far too small a figure (7).

How easy this object will be to discover depends very much upon what point of its orbit it currently resides in. If near perihelion, then there are a great many telescopes on the Earth capable of discovering it. If, however, it is nearer its furthest point, or aphelion, then only the world's largest telescopes, such as the twin 10-meter telescopes at the W. M. Keck Observatory and the Subaru Telescope, all on Mauna Kea in Hawaii, will be capable of detecting it. Dr Brown hopes that an early release of this work will propel the scientific telescope-wielding community into action. I suspect he figures that his top reputation as arch-planet-hunter will prevent him from being roundly trashed by his peers, as happened to the Atacama scientists last month. Not only that, but this proposal ticks an awful lot of 'Nibiru' boxes, which will bring a lot of public interest to bear on this unfolding science.

But why has this object so far evaded detection? Why didn't the infra-red sky survey WISE discover Planet Nine? After all, it's very substantial indeed, and relatively close (lying in the gap between the Kuiper Belt and the inner Oort Cloud). That's a critical issue here, as the scientists working on the WISE data seemed to rule this possibility out in no uncertain terms, declaring that no Saturn-sized planet could be lurking within 10,000 AU (8). By contrast, Planet Nine may be a mere 600 AU, or less, albeit much smaller than Saturn by Batygin and Brown's reckoning. Even so, surely WISE should have spotted it?

So what's the chances of finding it soon? As more data rolls in, Dr Batygin and Dr Brown seem to be honing in on this object, the parameters of its position, mass and orbits narrowing all the while. At the moment, they are still playing with a wide range of values, and conducting the astrophysical equivalent of war-games with them. There are no suggested coordinates for its position, or even a vague suggestion of its rough whereabouts for the world's top observatories to work with.

Their model does throw up some intriguing predictions, which may help them to find this Planet Nine perturber indirectly:

"A unique prediction that arises within the context of our resonant coupling model is that the perturber allows for the existence of an additional population of high-perihelion KBOs that do not exhibit the same type of orbital clustering as the identified objects. Observational efforts aimed at discovering such objects, as well as directly detecting the distant perturber itself constitute the best path toward testing our hypothesis." (2)

So, it's not just the proverbial smoking gun they seek, but also some accompanying high-inclination grapeshot. And perhaps that's what they're hoping the observatories will discover, expanding their data set substantially.

In terms of the origin of this distant object, the authors think that Planet Nine may have started out as a gas giant core among the ice giants Uranus and Neptune, before being scattered from this zone by the 'gaseous component of the [primordial] nebula'. But, at the same time, they don't seem to entirely rule out a much larger object than 10 Earth masses, particularly if the orbit is highly eccentric:

"Having identified an illustrative set of orbital properties of the perturber in the planar case, we demonstrated that an inclined object with similar parameters can dynamically carve a population of particles that is confined both apsidally and nodally. Such sculpting leads to a family of orbits that is clustered in physical space, in agreement with the data. Although the model proposed herein is characterized by a multitude of quantities that are inherently degenerate with respect to one another, our calculations suggest that a perturber on an a' ~ 700 AU, e' ~ 0.6 orbit would have to be somewhat more massive (e.g., a factor of a few) than m' = 10 ME to produce the desired effect." (2)

That, for me, is where things may yet get very interesting indeed! We could find that this object is substantially greater in mass than a 'Super-Earth', but is instead a compact gas giant - my 'Dark Star'. I've always thought that this object would be found in a highly elliptical orbit sweeping through the zone between the Kuiper Belt and the inner Oort Cloud. After all, that would make sense of why that area is largely devoid of material. That judgement seems to correlate reasonably well with the results emerging from this latest scientific study. Ten Earth masses is a minimum, it seems, and could stretch to a much larger object if it's current position lies near aphelion (maybe 1000 AU out?) and if it's orbit is highly eccentric (likely).

The burning question for me is why didn't the infra-red sky search WISE detect it? It should be eminently detectable at the sort of distances we're discussing. Either way, the indirect evidence is becoming compelling, and I think that the discovery of this object is now within sight. It may not turn out to be quite what Zecharia Sitchin had in mind. It's orbit will be tens of thousands of years, not 3600 (which, I think, was an educated guess on his part). It may no longer penetrate the planetary zone during its perihelion transit, but instead sweep through the massive gap between the Kuiper Belt and the inner Oort Cloud in its highly inclined, highly eccentric elliptical orbit. It may be a gaseous world with it's own 'system' of planets/moons. Depending on its size, it may qualify as an ultra cool 'Dark Star'. But even if this is the case, Sitchin's general thrust about a mythical Planet X object may turn out to be right after all. If it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck... well, you get the picture.



Written by Andy Lloyd, 20th January 2016
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:48 pm

I believe Sitchin tired to fit his theories to (quasi-) established dates as recorded in world histories. Much of his work I believe has validity, like I do that of Velikovsky, but in this I believe he's off by a factor of ten; that the dates as recorded in history are more ancient than the ancient re-tellers and re-writers believed possible and therefore edited or "corrected" them to reflect dates more readily acceptable, believable to contemporaries.

36,000 years for a single orbit seems right. I can imagine a close approach, the closest having serious tidal effects upon our Sun, perhaps teasing out huge flares enough to scorch the earth. It is my belief that our many solar calendars around the world, like Stonehenge, were built as a final project after a very many years observations with simpler sundial type thingies, watching for the earth's orbit and seasons to stabilize after "something" destabilized it some 40,000 years ago. Only intuition, nothing more. I might add that I held these beliefs before ever reading Velikovsky, who I read before learning of Sitchin.

I know Newton would argue the point. He probably is right now, but he would argue that to. He'd proly argue he's not dead either, cause he'd never accept that although he is, he isn't.



edited to add "believable"
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby justdrew » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:00 pm

"the new planet has been found to be on a highly elliptical orbit" - If I read that shit I'll know it's about time to jump again :tongout
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Laodicean » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:34 pm

Mysterious 'planet nine' that once destroyed Earth could do it again THIS MONTH

A TOP space scientist has claimed that a mysterious plant that wiped out Earth millions of years ago could do it again this month.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ ... this-month
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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Laodicean » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:53 pm

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Re: A new planet has scientists agog

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:27 am

https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/10/bey ... discovery/

Past Neptune, in the outer solar system, astronomers have recently discovered a new mystery object orbiting the sun on a plane nearly perpendicular to the rest of the planets. Adding to the weirdness, the trans-Neptunian object, which has been nicknamed "Niku," is also spinning around the sun backwards, in the opposite direction of the rest of the planets. So far, astronomers have little idea what could cause such abnormal celestial behavior.

Planetary systems are defined by the flat plane of dust and gas that forms around a star. Thanks to angular momentum, all of the object circle around the sun in the same direction. But as the astronomers who discovered Niku using the Pan-STARRS telescope on Haleakala, Maui noticed, the object is currently above the plane of the solar system and moving upwards. That means some other force must have acted upon the object in order to set it on this path.

"It suggests that there's more going on in the outer solar system than we're fully aware of," Matthew Holman, a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center told The New Scientist. Although Holman's team initially thought the other mysterious object beyond Neptune, Planet Nine might have influenced Niku's orbit, further analysis showed Niku is too close for any possible Planet Nine to have an impact. The team did, however, discover that Niku, which is estimated to be less than 200 kilometers in diameter, is actually a part of a group of objects, all of which are circling the sun backwards on the same 110-degree plane.

Although this data is all just hinting towards some unknown conclusion for now, Konstantin Batygin, one of the researchers who first theorized about a Planet Nine, is excited by the new trans-Neptunian object. "Whenever you have some feature that you can't explain in the outer solar system," Batygin told the New Scientist, "it's immensely exciting because it's in some sense foreshadowing a new development."
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
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