Non-Time and Hauntology

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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:44 am

You may have noticed that I made no mention of the popular 'Twilight Language' while discussing haunting language. There are similarities, it is true. But I don't use it, even though I'm perfectly fluent. Like a Frenchman who can speak perfect English, but refuses. Although I do have a pretty pair of Twilight Princess converse sneakers, for special occasions.

Sort of on the subject of "time dilation," I think, Dieter Dengler describing having his Sky Raider jet shot out of the sky, wrestling it to the ground and being thrown free of the crash.

The section begins at 20m25s of the documentary


After, he talks about how when there is no time, there is no time for fear. When landing on an aircraft carrier in a monsoon, it's after the landing that the legs start shaking uncontrollably.

So the fear lags behind, like the thunder moving slower than the lightning. And when it catches up, it's fear of something that already happened, a ghost-fear.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:27 am

Ghost sounds, ghost languages. We still have ghost writing to cover.

Geese honk, letting the others know where they are to keep the flock together. Owl hoots so that the others know to give him some space. Two crows in flight talk in low voices to one another. The sounds turn into languages.

Finally, they become writing. The most advanced form of communication, and the most refined. What is written might even be more important than what is said, since what is said can be changed by artificial intelligence.

What the hell are those crows talking about, anyway? To be perfectly clear, when I say the written word, I don't mean all this honking and hooting. Tomorrow, every post on this board could be changed into the most banal trash, or into posts saying the exact opposite of what they used to say. At the touch of a button, probably.

Misunderstanding what the written word was, the ghost strives to live on through the writing. Words on a page, words on a harddrive.

When I die, I think I'll be all the words ever written. Ghostly fingers, holding pens, typing on keyboards, caressing in an ancient language, love. Knocking autumn leaves from the trees, picture postcards from old flames rekindled.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:03 pm

As we know, there are three types of ghost, or rather three general species. The first species is the predetermined ghost. This ghost will not see you as it makes its nightly rounds. It will drift over to the bookshelf, take a book down and read, ignoring you the whole time. If you stand in the path, it will pass right through you.

Not to say it isn't harmless. It can still cause sleep deprivation, lower property values. And if you try to get rid of it, it can cause serious harm. So great care must be taken. If you are possessed by a predetermined ghost, you can feel its blind rage.

The next general species is the willful ghost. This ghost will take a book off the shelf, but if you disturb the air it will look at you. It can be a most unsettling sensation. Try to get rid of it, and it will resort to every trick in the book. If you're possessed by a willful ghost, the room may start spinning, which can be disorienting.

The third type is the clumsy ghost. This is the ghost that will knock all the books off the shelf. It seems to behave with no rhyme or reason. Getting rid of it is always a complicated affair, like an absurd, convoluted scavenger hunt. Possession by a clumsy ghost will oddly enough make you clumsy, which causes bad luck.

A clumsy ghost can occasionally be helpful. Instead of knocking all the books from the shelf, it knocks only one. The helpful clumsy ghost is arguably a fourth type, although technically it is an ideation, not quite a ghost, and not quite an idea.

Suggested methods and strategies for the different types can be found in your textbook. They range from the simple to the frankly ridiculous. Controlling the winds with incantations, reagents and jing. Useful, I guess, if you're dead in the water.

But fortunately or unfortunately, nothing beats first-hand encounters with the supernatural. So do try to have some.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby Harvey » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:21 am

Philip K Dick, Ubik

The TV set had receded back a long way; he found himself confronted by adark, wood-cabinet, Atwater-Kent tuned radio-frequency oldtime AM radio,complete with antenna and ground wires. God in heaven, he said to himself, appalled.

But why hadn't the TV set reverted instead to formless metals and plastics? Those, after all, were its constituents; it had been constructed out of them, notout of an earlier radio. Perhaps this weirdly verified a discarded ancient philosophy, that of Plato's ideal objects, the universals which, in each class, were real. The form TV set had been a template imposed as a successor to other templates, like the procession of frames in a movie sequence. Prior forms, he reflected, must carry on an invisible, residual life in every object. The past is latent, is submerged, but still there, capable of rising to the surface once the later imprinting unfortunately - and against ordinary experience - vanished. The man contains - not the boy - but earlier men, he thought. History began a long time ago.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby Harvey » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:25 am

Philip K Dick, Ubik

The TV set had receded back a long way; he found himself confronted by a dark, wood-cabinet, Atwater-Kent tuned radio-frequency oldtime AM radio,complete with antenna and ground wires. God in heaven, he said to himself, appalled.

But why hadn't the TV set reverted instead to formless metals and plastics? Those, after all, were its constituents; it had been constructed out of them, notout of an earlier radio. Perhaps this weirdly verified a discarded ancient philosophy, that of Plato's ideal objects, the universals which, in each class, were real. The form TV set had been a template imposed as a successor to other templates, like the procession of frames in a movie sequence. Prior forms, he reflected, must carry on an invisible, residual life in every object. The past is latent, is submerged, but still there, capable of rising to the surface once the later imprinting unfortunately - and against ordinary experience - vanished. The man contains - not the boy - but earlier men, he thought. History began a long time ago.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:32 pm

Here we run the risk of picturing the ideal forms as objects instead of subjects. Plato's philosophy as the ideal form of a haunted mansion, seen through the twisted trees. We explore the house and its grounds, but can't find the occupants. Maybe they're on vacation.

Still, the house itself seems to be alive, and trying to tell us something. Probably "Get. Out."

By treating the ideal forms as subjects, a rapport can be established. We might even make the guest list for the next big party. Either way, our experience of the old mansion will be very different.

I'm of the school which maintains that this leap from object to subject is a decisive moment in the life of any philosopher.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:55 pm

Does the ideal form of every fireplace already have a fire in it, or must it first be lit?

Above the ideal form of the fireplace in one room of the old mansion, hanging over the mantlepiece, is a mirror in which is reflected one's own ideal form, or what my school calls your Perfect Nature. But let's set aside what is meant by the ideas 'perfect' and 'nature' for now, and say that this ideal form is your subject.

You should notice that your ideal form has much more in common with the other ideal forms than it does with the potraits and hunting trophies which adorn the walls, with eyes that follow as you move past them.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:01 pm

On a large portion of the grounds of the mansion is the most marvelous graveyard. Maze-like unmanicured garden paths between the tombstones, statues, masoleums make it easy to get lost. Some guests never return. Some swear that the tombstones move, rearranging the paths.

In the middle of the graveyard is a pretty pool with a fountain. Not that everyone has seen it. Some guests spend hours at a time exploring, wandering along the paths, and never find it.

A very peaceful spot. After sitting there, the mansion seems different. No longer just a haunted house, but a home, drafty and eccentric. The whole thing seems to glow from within.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:50 pm

dada » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:55 pm wrote:Does the ideal form of every fireplace already have a fire in it, or must it first be lit?


I love this question. I will be repeating it.

Also, it reminds me why I usually prefer empirical and materialist approaches.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:32 pm

Won't argue against it. I think that no matter what approach you take, what you see is what you get. Glad you liked the mystery question.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a bit distracted. Lot of noise down here. Today the engineering team is fitting the foundations of the mansion with the solid fuel rocket boosters. Soon we'll be able to lift this sucker right into the air and fly into space! Although by now, I doubt that anyone would be the least bit surprised.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:36 am

dada » 07 Nov 2020 08:55 wrote:Does the ideal form of every fireplace already have a fire in it, or must it first be lit?

Above the ideal form of the fireplace in one room of the old mansion, hanging over the mantlepiece, is a mirror in which is reflected one's own ideal form, or what my school calls your Perfect Nature. But let's set aside what is meant by the ideas 'perfect' and 'nature' for now, and say that this ideal form is your subject.

You should notice that your ideal form has much more in common with the other ideal forms than it does with the potraits and hunting trophies which adorn the walls, with eyes that follow as you move past them.


Needs a fire, otherwise it's just a hole in a roof.
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:24 am

Joe, the fireplace is not the fire. Is it not the ideal of a place for the fire, and thus independent?

dada, Is the ideal form a static object independent of time?

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:05 pm

My take on the mysterious fireplace: If the ideal form of the fireplace contains the set of all fireplaces, then the ideal form of the fireplace is like a tree, with the specific forms of each fireplace the branches. So the dilemma of the fire is not solved by deciding one way or the other, but by seeing that the dilemma itself is a false one.

So the ideal form of the fireplace should be difficult to visualize. Through an angelological lens, we'd say that the ideal form of the fireplace is its angel, the angel of the fireplace. This is a kind of philosophical shorthand used to facilitate discussion without getting caught up in false dilemmas.

The ideal form of a static object, let's say this coffee mug (with tea in it) exists in ideal spacetime. As the specific forms of the coffee mug do not exist independently of time, the ideal form of the mug does not exist independently of eternity. Using the angelological shorthand, we'd say that this coffee mug now exists "in heaven."
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Re: Non-Time and Hauntology

Postby dada » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:56 pm

As well we could say that this fireplace presents itself as all fireplaces, those with a fire already in them, and those yet to be lit.

Sitting in front of it in a room of the old mansion, drinking tea from heavenly coffee mugs, we'd have to say this is a fireplace that already has a fire yet needs to be lit, and does not already have a fire yet doesn't need lighting. A funny sort of fireplace, indeed.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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So we come gradually to a conclusion

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:33 pm

which like all things is temporary: things don't exist, or everything is a verb and not a form.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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