A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:43 pm

This is not the video I referenced above but it has the same type information I have been reading and seeing in other places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JNFr_j6 ... dded#at=45

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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:54 pm

This can be done without a smart grid but the smart grid data should make these types of scenarios more common.


Sometimes, high electricity use doesn't lead investigators to drugs. A federal investigation in the Powell area turned into a surprise for detectives.

"We thought it was a major grow operation ... but this guy had some kind of business involving computers," Marotta said. "I don't know how many computer servers we found in his home."



http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... -data.html
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:30 pm

eyeno, could you please link to your source for this claim?



This guy has a fairly impressive engineering education and some relevant work experience. This is the guy that says the smart grid can pick up the signature of a vibrator. This video is a little over 32 minutes long and well worth watching in my opinion. He covers health effects, privacy concerns, and marketing aspects of data collected.

The Dark Side Of Smart Meters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLeCTaSG ... re=related

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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Simulist » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:18 pm

eyeno wrote:
eyeno, could you please link to your source for this claim?



This guy has a fairly impressive engineering education and some relevant work experience. This is the guy that says the smart grid can pick up the signature of a vibrator.

Damn. As if the vibrator itself weren't already invasive-enough.

(And not sure what "the signature of a vibrator" might look like, but for some reason "John Hancock" comes to mind…)

Sorry. :D :oops:
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Elvis » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:58 pm

norton ash wrote:Could they tell a vibrator from a nose-hair trimmer or an electric toothbrush?


I can't take a position on this whole issue because I just don't know enough about it yet (while assuming They will take advantage of any associated means to spy on "consumers") but I think various appliances' motors etc. modulate the 60Hz line signal (50Hz in Europe etc.).

I remember back during the '70s CB radio craze listening to the neighborhood AC line noise picked up by by the CB receiver.

Having our coffee in the morning with the CB on a quiet channel, we'd hear distinct motor sounds come on & off at various intervals. I think these noises picked up by radio receivers are called "spurious emissions"; CB radios themselves were notorious for them, interfering with peoples' TVs and stereos and so on.

We made it a game to identify the sources: I remember thinking that one grinding whine, coming on for a few seconds, sounded like the "signature" (if you will) of a juicer motor; another buzzing, starting up and going for a minute or so, sounded like an electric razor; a certain high-pitched whine we definitely decided was a hair dryer.

We were amused by hearing these broadcasts of our neighbors' sundry morning appliances.

(I assume that battery-powered motors would also produce spurious emissions that could be picked up by radio, if the signal was powerful enough.)

So, I think motors and other devices can generate a "signature" signal, but what this means for the smart-meter question I'm not sure. Maybe my experience above will connect with others' information to help figure it out.
Last edited by Elvis on Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby wintler2 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:09 pm

eyeno wrote:..This guy [Rob States] has a fairly impressive engineering education and some relevant work experience...


RS makes a big show of insisting that moving elec consumption from peak times to trough times would result in 'no elec consumption savings' - which is strictly speaking correct, but deceitful. the point of time-shifting the consumption is that the capital cost of the shifted consumption is much much lower, and if RS is who he says he is he would know that - why didn't he acknowledge it?

I agree with him that microwave radiation is dangerous, but if thats his beef cordless and mobile phones should be top of his list and smart meters a long way down.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:17 pm

wintler2 wrote:
eyeno wrote:..This guy [Rob States] has a fairly impressive engineering education and some relevant work experience...


RS makes a big show of insisting that moving elec consumption from peak times to trough times would result in 'no elec consumption savings' - which is strictly speaking correct, but deceitful. the point of time-shifting the consumption is that the capital cost of the shifted consumption is much much lower, and if RS is who he says he is he would know that - why didn't he acknowledge it?

I agree with him that microwave radiation is dangerous, but if thats his beef cordless and mobile phones should be top of his list and smart meters a long way down.



'If' it is true that this smart meter is killing this shrub I would not want it attached to my bedroom wall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsuP_WBB ... re=related

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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:27 pm

(I assume that battery-powered motors would also produce spurious emissions that could be picked up by radio, if the signal was powerful enough.)


I have experienced the same thing. I agree that cordless appliances such as battery operated vibrators probably do send a noticeable signature that can be detected with a radio. I stuck with "corded" vibrators though for the sake of accuracy.

Due to the "corona effect" of electrical lines I think it very possible that cordless appliances can also send a signature along an electric line if they are operated within a few feet of the line. I don't know this for certain but due to airborne nature of the signatures it seems very possible.

And these smart meters are wireless radios so I suspect they can pick up cordless items perhaps.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:02 am

hanshan wrote:...

Joe Hillshoist wrote:What?

How does a smart meter read the frequency signature of a vibrator? So many pithy answers come to mind... Also. Vibrators aren't attached to mains power are they? I'd be shocked if they were. (Well I probably wouldn't but anyway.)

So how does a smart meter have anything to do with them.


Not unless you want industrial strength release.




I'm glad someone noticed that. I was getting a bit worried.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Gnomad » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:14 pm

There is one really good reason I am worried about smart meters. And they ain't wireless over here.
I bet Joe can relate.

They are currently being installed, next year all customers will have em over here.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Burnt Hill » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:52 pm

eyeno wrote:
wintler2 wrote:
eyeno wrote:..This guy [Rob States] has a fairly impressive engineering education and some relevant work experience...


RS makes a big show of insisting that moving elec consumption from peak times to trough times would result in 'no elec consumption savings' - which is strictly speaking correct, but deceitful. the point of time-shifting the consumption is that the capital cost of the shifted consumption is much much lower, and if RS is who he says he is he would know that - why didn't he acknowledge it?

I agree with him that microwave radiation is dangerous, but if thats his beef cordless and mobile phones should be top of his list and smart meters a long way down.



'If' it is true that this smart meter is killing this shrub I would not want it attached to my bedroom wall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsuP_WBB ... re=related



They may have sprayed weed killer around the meter so it wouldnt get overgrown by shrubbery.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:16 am

Gnomad wrote:I bet Joe can relate.


NO. What?

Look over there.
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Re: Dumb and Dumber SmartMeters / Cellphone Cancer

Postby elfismiles » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:43 am


Cell Phone Industry to Sue SF on Radiation Law
By Sajid Farooq
| Tuesday, Oct 4, 2011 | Updated 7:24 AM PDT

Image
A controversial new San Francisco law requiring retailers to post radiation information about cell phones started this month.

A trade group representing the cell phone industry said Tuesday it will file a federal lawsuit challenging San Francisco's new law to provide radiation information.

The suit comes the week The City's new controversial ordinance went live and after months of debate and publicity.

The ordinance requires cell phone retailers to display information about the amount of radiation emanating from cell phones and to provide fact sheets to customers who ask for them.

The CTIA said it plans to file its suit because the ordinance is trumped by federal law and it violates the industry's First Amendment rights.

The law has been discussed and debated in the City for almost two years with former San Francisco mayor and now California Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom pushing its adoption.

There is some controversy about how radiation levels are measured and whether cell phone radiation poses an immediate threat at all.

Regardless, the new law gives retailers until the end of the month to comply.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sa ... 90398.html



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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:04 pm

The battle continues. I read an article somewhere (don't remember where) a few weeks ago that said a person counted the microwave pulses coming from these meters at well over 1000 pulses per day. Supposedly according to the power company they only transmit information 7 times a day but the meters still pulse over a thousand times a day according to the article I read.




CPUC: PG&E Smart Meter Opt Out Fees “Suspended”
Posted on April 25, 2012 by onthelevelblog
Utility Lacks Authority to Force Smart Meters or Charge Fees to Keep Analog Meters

San Francisco, CA- Though PG&E’s arbitrary “deadline” of May 1st for signing up for their smart meter opt out program is fast approaching, the future of the charges is uncertain due to legal challenges and a series of procedural errors by both PG&E and the CPUC, who have failed to provide crucial documents to members of the public protesting the opt out policy, as required by law. The regulatory agency has issued conflicting statements about the approval status of the policy, and has refused to divulge e-mail communications with PG&E about the issue, in violation of the CA Public Records Act.

Edward Hasbrouck, a San Francisco resident, grassroots activist and author of the travel book The Practical Nomad, submitted a protest in February against the legality of the opt out fees. Mr. Hasbrouck’s protest is simple, but cuts to the heart of whether utilities like PG&E’s have a right to install a smart meter against the will of a homeowner and to charge a fee for retaining an analog meter. Despite being required by law to serve Mr. Hasbrouck a copy of the PUC and PG&E responses, this never occurred. Because of this “procedural error” PG&E’s Advice Letter containing the opt out policy has therefore been suspended, according to CPUC General Order 96-B 7.5.2. This was confirmed in an e-mail dated April 20th from Elizabeth Dorman, Principal Counsel at CPUC’s Legal Division to Mr. Hasbrouck:

Legal Division has instructed Energy Division that the Advice Letter filing is suspended, and requested that they include such label on our website.

CPUC General Order 96-B 7.5.2 states:

For any advice letter that may not be deemed approved, suspension is automatic if disposition of the advice letter has not occurred by the end of the initial review period.

Because the CPUC’s disposition of the advice letter was invalid due to their failure to serve Mr. Hasbrouck, suspension (according to the CPUC’s own rules) is automatic.

But the CPUC’s Energy Division has disputed this, essentially saying that they made a ‘mistake’ and deserve a ‘do over.’ Meanwhile, PG&E operators have been telling customers that they will be charged starting May 1st, even though the policy has been suspended. Critics of the utility accuse PG&E of fraud in asserting that the opt out fees are still valid, and working behind the scenes to obscure the suspension of the policy.

Reached by telephone today, Ms. Dorman agreed that there is no law mandating smart meter installation- and that the right to install a smart meter was “just an assumption” by the PUC and the utilities, and not based in law.

“CPUC’s legal division is correct- there is no law that says smart meters are mandatory” says Joshua Hart, Director of Santa Cruz County based Stop Smart Meters! “PG&E and the other utilities cannot legally charge a fee unless people actively agree to the charges. It is all a bluff by the utility who are running from the reality that their smart meter program has been a full fledged debacle and is being rejected by the public. Mr. Hasbrouck is asking some fairly inconvenient questions and the powers that be are attempting to silence him.”

The ‘opt out’ policy itself has been described by those close to the issue as being “half baked.” No accommodation has been made for apartment dwellers, business owners, or to provide for community wide opt outs as requested by dozens of local governments throughout the state, and thousands of people who have complained directly to the agency of health impacts, fires, and higher bills. Fifty-six cities and counties in CA have now gone on record as opposing the current installations. The American Academy of Environmental Medicine has demanded that the CPUC halt smart meter installation immediately to protect the public’s health. (pdf)

Under State Utility Code, utilities may not charge extra to people to protect their safety and health. Smart meters are threats to both according to scientific studies (pdf).

Code 328.2(b) states: “No customer should have to pay separate fees for utilizing services that protect public or customer safety.”

Code 453. (b) states: “No public utility shall prejudice, disadvantage, or require different rates or deposit amounts from a person because of medical condition”

In accordance with the CPUC’s rules, Hasbrouck has requested that the full CPUC review the CPUC Energy Division’s mishandling of his protest and order that a formal proceeding be conducted to consider whether PG&E’s gas and electric delivery easements give the utility the right to install wireless telecommunications infrastructure on customer premises.

“If PG&E can put a base station for its mesh network on my gas or electric meter, without having to ask for permission from the owner of the building, does that mean AT&T has the right to add a cellphone antenna and transceiver to the telephone junction box on my wall, without permission and without having to pay for those rights?” Hasbrouck asks. He points out that Proposition J, enacted by San Francisco voters in 2007, set conditions for wireless network infrastructure on city streets that aren’t met by the mesh network bundled with PG&E’s “SmartMeters”.

Regardless of the status of the opt out fees, customers of PG&E are being urged to inform the utility of their choice to reject the smart meters by May 1st and to either protest the fees or write “paid under protest” on their check. PG&E customers should call 1-866-743-0263 immediately to opt out.

Mr. Hasbrouck has covered this evolving issue on his website:

PG&E twists “SmartMeter” opt-out into involuntary opt-in to higher fees

CPUC withdraws approval of PG&E “SmartMeter” opt-out fees

PG&E “SmartMeter” opt-out fees are suspended

Contacts for further information:

Edward Hasbrouck: 415 824 0214

Elizabeth Dorman, CPUC Legal Division: 415.703.1415
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

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