Evolution, religion, schizophrenia & the schizotypal shaman

[Twyla LaSarc]

People here might enjoy this blog: Spiritual Emergency. It definitely helped me through some dark times.

http://spiritualemergency.blogspot.co.uk/

I am an individual who has undergone a transformative experience that in this culture and setting would be identified as psychosis or schizophrenic. Other cultures and settings have other names for the same experience: kundalini awakening, shamanism, mysticism, gnosis, the psychotic-visionary episode, the dark night of the soul, ego death, the alchemical process, positive disintegration, post traumatic stress disorder with psychotic features, spiritual emergency, etc. I was not on any form of spiritual path previous to that experience nor was I experimenting with ethnogens. I was simply an individual in a great deal of pain doing my best to get through it. That experience lasted approximately six weeks. I was guided through it by a mentor figure who appeared and served as my constant companion. Everything in this blog has been researched after the fact. I share it for the benefit of others who may have no framework for interpreting their own psycho-spiritual crisis.

Interesting site, thanks.

[jakell]

jakell, have you seen "Stonehearst Asylum"?



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772264/

I'll have a look out for that. Normally I'd go straight to my favourite bittorrent site but most of them are having difficulties at the moment.

[brainpanhandler]

Have got about halfway through this and realise it isn't up my street at at all (I was going by the title I think)

A little background: decades back, I studied psychology at University (didn't complete it BTW), I have now worked in psychiatric nursing for over twenty years, and quite a while ago now, I realised that I have very little time for the medical model of psychiatric illness, which, incidentally, probably explains my disinterest at University.
Of course, it's a great static toy to tinker with for those who like that sort of thing, but to my mind, it doesn't produce any useful insights for those who work at the coalface eg nurses.

Understandable. I wouldn't expect the "medical model of psychiatric illness" (Whatever that is, it is a model) to provide any useful insights for psychiatric nurses. Perhaps unintentionally on your part I get the impression that when you say "that sort of thing" you mean to convey a sense of useless and therefore blind to the nitty gritty reality of the "coalface" intellectual wankery. I don't really care to get into the same boring debate about the relative merits of reductionism. I've had that conversation here too many times. Siffice it to say I consider it one way of making sense of the universe. Not by a long shot the best or the only, but one way that has produced stunning results, both sublime and horrific.

This is how coal is dug these days:


I'm curious if you administer any meds. And I wonder how successful the schizotypal shamans were treating the full blown schizophrenics. Or perhaps the full blown schizophrenics were just cast out.

What's missing from this lecture IMO is any larger framework that explains why we would want to take these things apart in an ugly materialist fashion and it is assumed that this mechanistic approach is fruitful , and I would initially look at this assumption to see if it holds water. To my mind, that's the more fundamental question here. Especially as we are dealing with highly complex and metaphysical issues, not fruit fly antics.

I know, right. But I sometimes have to wonder as I wander through life and observe my fellow human beings if it isn't a conceit to believe we are so much more evolved than a fruit fly that any comparison at all is completely useless and without any merit. And I can't help but wonder if free will isn't really just a misery making illusion after all. Maybe we are only truly free once we give up that illusion. Why is it that wisdom always seems come in the form of a mental chinese finger puzzle like that?

The lecturer sort of hints at this though because, in order to make his categorisations appear valid, He points towards extreme states that are clearly pathological, and then gets fuzzier by describing milder and milder versions of the same thing until we approach 'wellness'.
At this point, a number of people might start to question the validity of the initial models, or at least the the utility of breaking them down to such a degree.

At the coalface? Sure.

I'll struggle on with the lecture but the question of 'why this approach?' keeps nagging at me.

If nothing else, as a foil. For myself, I guess I had a different vision of the typical "shaman". I guess I didn't see them as being as integrated in their respective societies as Sapolsky says they were. And the insight that the origins of religious ritual coincide so neatly with OCD symptomology was new to me.

[jakell]

I'm still cogitating on your larger piece. Have another look at this bit though:

"...if it isn't a conceit to believe we are so much more evolved than a fruit fly** that any comparison at all is completely useless and without any merit..."

I don't know if you read the JMG piece that I posted, but how do you think the above plays out in the light of the subject of that?

**sort of jumped right out at me.

[brainpanhandler]

I'm still cogitating on your larger piece. Have another look at this bit though:

"...if it isn't a conceit to believe we are so much more evolved than a fruit fly** that any comparison at all is completely useless and without any merit..."

I don't know if you read the JMG piece that I posted, but how do you think the above plays out in the light of the subject of that?

**sort of jumped right out at me.

I did read it and I am unsurprised that it jumped out at you and I am still left wondering if you understand how you might be (mis?)construed to be in agreement with the hierarchical interpretation of evolution when you denigrate the incredibly useful to research fruit fly.

Edited for clarity, I think.

[jakell]

I'm still cogitating on your larger piece. Have another look at this bit though:

"...if it isn't a conceit to believe we are so much more evolved than a fruit fly** that any comparison at all is completely useless and without any merit..."

I don't know if you read the JMG piece that I posted, but how do you think the above plays out in the light of the subject of that?

**sort of jumped right out at me.

I did read it and I am unsurprised that it jumped out at you and I am still left wondering if you understand how you might be (mis?)construed to be in agreement with the hierarchical interpretation of evolution when you denigrate the incredibly useful to research fruit fly.

Edited for clarity, I think.

I'm pretty sure I didn't denigrate the incredibly useful fruit fly, just made a comparison with humans. There may be a wealth of research out there relating to the psychology of fruit fies, but I've never stumbled across it.

I would have thought that my posting of the article alone shows that I am not in agreement with and any so-called hierarchical interpretation of evolution.

[brainpanhandler]

I'm still cogitating on your larger piece. Have another look at this bit though:

"...if it isn't a conceit to believe we are so much more evolved than a fruit fly** that any comparison at all is completely useless and without any merit..."

I don't know if you read the JMG piece that I posted, but how do you think the above plays out in the light of the subject of that?

**sort of jumped right out at me.

I did read it and I am unsurprised that it jumped out at you and I am still left wondering if you understand how you might be (mis?)construed to be in agreement with the hierarchical interpretation of evolution when you denigrate the incredibly useful to research fruit fly.

Edited for clarity, I think.

I'm pretty sure I didn't denigrate the incredibly useful fruit fly, just made a comparison with humans. There may be a wealth of research out there relating to the psychology of fruit fies, but I've never stumbled across it.

I would have thought that my posting of the article alone shows that I am not in agreement with and any so-called hierarchical theory of evolution.

Sure. That seemed clear. But communication of any sort is fraught with the possibility of self contradiction. It's difficult to impossible to hold and convey strictly consistent views on much of anything let alone complex subjects such as that discussed in the OP lecture and the piece you posted.

The psychology of fruit flies. Sounds like the title of something.

Oddly enough there's been a few pesky fruit flies floating about in the house for a month now. I haven't solved the compost bucket problem yet. They seem to have an affinity for my computer screen. I squashed one the other day it was being so persistent.

[jakell]

You're lucky to just have a few, I had a plague of them last summer and they're very difficult to get rid of, I eventually invested a handheld vacuum cleaner, squashing them by hand (or finger) wasn't dispatching them fast enough.

Funnily enough, my compost bucket was their initial breeding ground too. I did bring them home on some suspect veg though, that's what started it. I've now got a decent lid for the bucket.

[82_28]

BPH wrote:

The psychology of fruit flies. Sounds like the title of something.

Oddly enough there's been a few pesky fruit flies floating about in the house for a month now. I haven't solved the compost bucket problem yet. They seem to have an affinity for my computer screen. I squashed one the other day it was being so persistent.

They live and breed in your sink drains. Take it from me. The only way to get rid of them is to keep a stopped up sink with an inch of water when not in use. If you don't want to do that, the next best thing is to make a bleach solution and spray the drains. But yeah it has everything to do with your sinks. Guarantee that if you do that for all your sinks and drains you won't see them again.

[brainpanhandler]

I'd have never in a million years guessed I'd be looking up the psychology of fruit flies today, but fwiw:

http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/04/01 ... 53296.html

[brainpanhandler]

BPH wrote:

The psychology of fruit flies. Sounds like the title of something.

Oddly enough there's been a few pesky fruit flies floating about in the house for a month now. I haven't solved the compost bucket problem yet. They seem to have an affinity for my computer screen. I squashed one the other day it was being so persistent.

They live and breed in your sink drains. Take it from me. The only way to get rid of them is to keep a stopped up sink with an inch of water when not in use. If you don't want to do that, the next best thing is to make a bleach solution and spray the drains. But yeah it has everything to do with your sinks. Guarantee that if you do that for all your sinks and drains you won't see them again.

That may well be part of the problem. I imagine boiling water might accomplish the same thing as the bleach. But for sure the compost bin is an issue as well. I don't think I've recently researched much of anything nearly so well as my recent purchase of a compost bin. I just need to install a gasket around the lid and I've been too lazy to get around to it. It's the lazy gene I suppose.

[jakell]

BPH wrote:

The psychology of fruit flies. Sounds like the title of something.

Oddly enough there's been a few pesky fruit flies floating about in the house for a month now. I haven't solved the compost bucket problem yet. They seem to have an affinity for my computer screen. I squashed one the other day it was being so persistent.

They live and breed in your sink drains. Take it from me. The only way to get rid of them is to keep a stopped up sink with an inch of water when not in use. If you don't want to do that, the next best thing is to make a bleach solution and spray the drains. But yeah it has everything to do with your sinks. Guarantee that if you do that for all your sinks and drains you won't see them again.

That may well be part of the problem. I imagine boiling water might accomplish the same thing as the bleach. But for sure the compost bin is an issue as well. I don't think I've recently researched much of anything nearly so well as my recent purchase of a compost bin. I just need to install a gasket around the lid and I've been too lazy to get around to it. It's the lazy gene I suppose.

They don't justlive in your drain though, this is only one of their hiding places. Even if you think your kitchen is spotless (mine certainly isn't), they will still find something to breed on . They don't need much and breed very quickly

[82_28]

As a matter of fact they do. In a bar, they die quickly once they are tempted by the liquor bottles. Alcohol kills them quick. Even fruit, though they are drawn to it to feed is not a breeding ground for them. It's the drains I tell ya!

Another fun fact is that fruit fly sperm is 1000 times larger/longer than a human sperm cell!

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/11/us/wh ... whale.html

Don't underestimate little guys. In the world of procreation, a new record holder has emerged in the longest-sperm category.

The achievement goes not to the elephant, the hippopotamus or even the mighty sperm whale. The winner, researchers say, is a tiny fruit fly called Drosophila bifurca, which produces sperm that are more than 20 times the size of its body.

Scientists say they are not quite sure why the fly produces coiled sperm that stretch out about 2.3 inches. But to devote so much of its energy to make giant sperm, they say, the fly must reap some kind of reproductive advantage.

The fly's sperm, 1,000 times longer than those produced by humans, eclipses the previous record held by another fruit fly, Drosophila hydei, which produces male reproductive cells an inch long. The sperm of a man 6 feet tall, if proportionate to that of the champion fruit fly, would be about 120 feet long.

In a letter being published today in the journal Nature, Dr. Scott Pitnick, a National Science Foundation postdoctoral fellow at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, and colleagues said the flies develop huge testes that make up almost 11 percent of its body weight in order to produce the giant sperm.

Producing such sexual organs appears to consume so much energy that it delays the male insects' sexual maturity, said the scientists, who include Dr. Greg S. Spicer of the Institute of Molecular Medical Sciences in Palo Alto, Calif., and Dr. Therese A. Markow of Arizona State University in Tempe. After molting into adults, they said, male flies must wait 17 days before they can reproduce, compared to only 7 days for females.

Dr. Pitnick, who dissected fruit flies to remove, count and measure sperm, said in an interview that the insects had about 800 sperm in their reproductive tracts at one time. Although no one knows how many sperm D. bifurca releases with each sex act, Dr. Pitnick estimated the number at 50.

Each sperm looks like a rolled-up ball of twine and is transferred to a female as a large mass that slowly loosens, he said. Unlike human sperm, which have a strong swimming ability to help them reach eggs, the fly sperm is sluggish, Dr. Pitnick said, apparently relying more on some transport mechanism within the female to move toward its goal.

Believe me, I have spent lo 20 years trying to eradicate them in bars. It's the drains. Fill the drains with a layer of water and they can't escape and won't buzz around your drinks, fruits, vegetables etc.

[Nordic]

Interesting! That's why I always have them flying around above my sink. Good to know! They're harmless of course, but annoying, and I don't want them spreading.

[norton ash]

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.