Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:49 pm

Is there a concise definition you would cite as definitive?

I'm not sure there's one that I would, as things seem too fuzzy around the edges to me. I would rather just cite a bunch of sources that I think contain good thinking and describe certain individuals and group who surely are fascist. I'm much less inclined to refer to neoliberals I loathe, or even to obnoxious chauvinist/populist types as being fascists- unless they really, really fit the bill.



JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:34 pm wrote:
American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:45 pm wrote:We're still left with the problematic use of the term "fascist" in popular culture. Granted there's always going to be a gray zone but I think the usage is far too sloppy. A fascist is not necessarily: anyone who espouses an authoritarian policy someone else doesn't like, a racist, an imperialist, a violent bigot, a xenophobe, a right winger, etc. etc. They could be, but need not qualify just because the user of the term does not like them..


Yes. We agree on that.






.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:54 pm

I'd prefer to refer to Putin as a reactionary nationalist who could go full bore fascist. Same goes for Trump.

Hitler and Franco definitely, not sure about Peron.

Absolutely agreed that the United States props up fascists, harbors that element at home and retains that potential.


PufPuf93 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:44 pm wrote:I referred to Putin's Russia today as fascist.

Hitler was fascist and so was Franco and probably also Peron.

I dislike the term Islamofascist but probably because of the parties that use the meaningless term.

Mussolini equated fascism with corporatism.

There are elements of fascism in the USA; the domestic right wing that favored Hitler before WWII, the Christian right wing, neoconservatives, and followers of Trump.

Elements of the USA have been fascist friendly post WWII.

The USA has supported many totalitarian states that could be termed fascist (over more liberal and democratic alternatives).
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:59 pm

American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:49 pm wrote:Is there a concise definition you would cite as definitive?


No. It would be approaching the difficulties of providing a concise definition of other ideological traditions and governing systems. I say approaching because yes, fascism is a few turns simpler than conservatism, liberalism or capitalism. Where the edges get fuzzy is precisely where one should observe, analyze, and admit the uniqueness of all cases, rather than rely on templates as though they run through stages, in my philosophical view. Not to deny that stages are also a useful concept.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby PufPuf93 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:00 pm

American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:49 pm wrote:Is there a concise definition you would cite as definitive?

I'm not sure there's one that I would, as things seem too fuzzy around the edges to me. I would rather just cite bunch of sources that I think contain good thinking and describe certain individuals and group who surely are fascist. I'm much less inclined to refer to neoliberals I loathe, or even to obnoxious chauvinist/populist types as being fascists- unless they really, really fit the bill.


JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:34 pm wrote:
American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:45 pm wrote:We're still left with the problematic use of the term "fascist" in popular culture. Granted there's always going to be a gray zone but I think the usage is far too sloppy. A fascist is not necessarily: anyone who espouses an authoritarian policy someone else doesn't like, a racist, an imperialist, a violent bigot, a xenophobe, a right winger, etc. etc. They could be, but need not qualify just because the user of the term does not like them..


Yes. We agree on that.


I do not think that there is (or perhaps can be) a concise definition of fascism.

Do the academics even agree?

I do think that many of the conditions we think of as fascism (see 14 points) can exist nascent in a society that bloom into full blown capital "F" Fascism at a point in time and conditions with force of specific personalities and a ripe population; Hitler being the obvious example. Imperial Japan another. The Fascist nation goes rabid and rogue.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:03 pm

Very much agreed.

That said, I see various people using "fascist" as a broad slur- in ways that seem clearly off to me- all the time.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:03 pm

American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:54 pm wrote:Mussolini equated fascism with corporatism.

There are elements of fascism in the USA; the domestic right wing that favored Hitler before WWII, the Christian right wing, neoconservatives, and followers of Trump.

Elements of the USA have been fascist friendly post WWII.

The USA has supported many totalitarian states that could be termed fascist (over more liberal and democratic alternatives).


Each in itself true. "Corporatism" meant something else, however. Corporations were the organized "bodies" of society. Although it was at that time that it was morphing more into the present meaning of the power of the capitalist limited liability corporations as such.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby PufPuf93 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:05 pm

American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:54 pm wrote:I'd prefer to refer to Putin as a reactionary nationalist who could go full bore fascist. Same goes for Trump.

Hitler and Franco definitely, not sure about Peron.

Absolutely agreed that the United States props up fascists, harbors that element at home and retains that potential.



I think we agree.

The potential you talk about is what I just referred to as conditions nascent in a society.

Nascent defined (adjective):

(especially of a process or organization) just coming into existence and beginning to display signs of future potential:
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:17 pm

Here's the post four years ago wherein I attempted to distentangle the various usages of the word:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35352&start=15#p475294

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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:23 pm

So I would say that Trump is not fascist but has the potential of becoming so. I would say that the United States harbors fascist elements but has not given itself over to them, though it also could.

My personal bias is that nobody in power should have a rational reason for doing so now, as the more mundane types of social management are working just fine. There may be ideological reasons for some, however...
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:43 pm

Here is another perspective:

Shlomo Sand: Israel Isn’t Fascist, but It Still Needs the World to Save It From Itself

By Shlomo Sand / 15 August 2016

In an editorial published in Haaretz last weekend, Shlomo Sand writes:

In recent months we’ve witnessed a cascade of articles and calls for help by all sorts of learned people on the liberal left crying out that fascism is threatening Israel. Some of them claim that it’s already here; others warn that it’s about to arrive [...]

I must reiterate: Analogy is the mother of all human wisdom. Analogy is also the parent of all human folly. There is no science without analogy; no politics of the masses without simplistic, and mostly inflammatory, analogies.

The problem is that all sorts of researchers in political science, sociology and history indulge in baseless historical analogies with scientific certainty. Fascism in Italy was a one-time phenomenon — like many other events in history — even if many people in European countries tried to imitate it without success.

In democratic countries that underwent successful social and national revolutions and the principle of the people’s sovereignty was stable, the fascist option has remained marginal and ridiculous. In France, Britain and the United States, fascist movements have failed completely; these countries had no need for them (the anti-Semitic Vichy regime wasn’t fascist). Even in Spain, Francisco Franco trampled the fascist Falange without any problem.

True, only in one place did a movement arise that reminds us in many respects of Italian fascism. National Socialism maybe never saw itself as fascism, but the left between the wars insisted on defining it is this way and bequeathed this terminology to the next generations.

Similar aspects between the two movements and regimes stand out that can’t be ignored: the forced solution they established in capital-labor relations, the aestheticization of politics, the crude imperialism, the lack of inhibitions. And so the German left, with all its branches, treated Nazism as a local version of fascism.

Yet if nationalism was the most important fuel that fed both fascism and Nazism, the difference between the two phenomena was decisive. Fascist nationalism may have been aggressive and violent, but it was inclusive, political and similar in many ways to French Jacobinism.

From the outset, Nazi nationalism was ethnocentric and exclusive. The difference was not just ideological but was translated into a very different practicum. The mass extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and the mentally ill was planted at the very heart of the unique ethnocentric project. If German Nazism had been identical to Italian fascism from the nationalist aspect, or similar to it, it wouldn’t have become a symbol of evil in modern history.

No, the Germans were not more evil, or better, than other peoples. Hannah Arendt’s banality of evil is a brilliant distinction that was formulated back in the 18th century by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, even if he used different words. Just as there is banality of evil, there is banality of good. The two are dependent on the historical circumstances, and Arendt knew this very well.

She may not have always been systematic in her distinctions, but she was one of the few who studied in depth the 20th century’s ideologies on a historical basis, not on the basis of anthropological essentialism. Very few in her generation linked with such sharp intuition modern imperialism, totalitarianism and nationalism.

The banality of evil characterizes the atomization and alienation of the modern world, but it is realized in specific circumstances. To understand this we don’t need to learn about Belgian colonialism; it’s enough to read Joseph Conrad’s “Heart of Darkness.” There is no need to specialize in the history of the Soviet Union; it’s enough to read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. You don’t need to be an expert on Nazism, it’s enough to read Primo Levi.

Even if sociologist Norbert Elias understood very well that the state’s monopoly on violence moderates individual relations, he wasn’t aware enough that the state drains and channels this violence outward toward foreign collectives – residents of colonies, enemies of the revolution, or those who belong to another nationality or “race.”

Is Israel deteriorating into fascism or beginning to resemble an evil state? This question isn’t serious; it’s even ridiculous. Even if damage to the freedom of expression can be seen here and there, and even if Jewish ethnocentrism is revealed to be more crude and disgusting every day, it’s not fascism and Israel isn’t any more an evil state than in the past.

Were there fewer attacks on innocent non-Jews during the 1948 war than today? Did the horrible murder of 47 residents of Kafr Qasem in 1956 take place under a right-wing government? Are the positions of the communities that don’t accept Arabs so different from those of the kibbutzim that since the beginning of Zionist settlement have refused to accept a single Arab?

Did the Zionist left that established the country and was forced by a UN decision to grant equal citizenship to the conquered Arabs in 1948 not impose a military government on them for 18 years that canceled civic equality? Can one seriously compare the attacks on liberal pluralism today to the limited space of pluralism and tolerance under David Ben-Gurion in the 1950s?

Is the left-wing Zionist settlement on the Golan Heights different in principle from the right-wing settlement in the West Bank? Is Sgt. Elor Azaria, who killed an already wounded assailant lying on the ground, really different from Avraham Shalom, the Mapai head of the Shin Bet security service who gave the order to kill in cold blood two wounded and subdued Palestinians in the 1984 Bus 300 affair?


http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2804-sh ... rom-itself
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby PufPuf93 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:55 pm

JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:17 pm wrote:Here's the post four years ago wherein I attempted to distentangle the various usages of the word:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... 15#p475294

Nobody listened!


I read the post twice; once to start and a second time reading page 1 and 2 in entirety.

You are a smart and deep thinker JackR.

Folks listen but maybe can't keep up with the nuance.

Fine and insightful thoughts and categorization.

I cop to using the word fascism in a sloppy manner. Really a more apt word for most folks I casually label fascist is capital "A" Assholes.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby 82_28 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:58 pm

I think that fascism is always around us. We just don't recognize it as such. I think that there should be a better term which one could call techno-fascism. I really do not know. I understand Russia as much as I know what is going on in a possibly conscious tree. I do not know. Fascism exists because our occasional flirts with cruelty can always be modified.

I remember your "disentanglement" well, Jack.

Like I said and you quoted me, is that it comes down to, in some form, confusion. I think we are all confused in some way right now. So what does that mean when we were once certain? What we do know is that most people don't "like" either of the major candidates. There is no oomph. I think it is the way basically everything sort of is. It's like in 1900 when the circus or carnival came to town. It was the talk of the town. Now get excited to go see a circus -- unless you wanted to go for irony's sake. I think that a new form of fascism is possible and thus I say it is already here. We just don't recognize it as the time we read The Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich and said Jesus how could have that possibly have happened?
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:05 pm

Thank you puf! Thanks also 82. You guys are too kind.

The video for Trump Youth posted at this link (which 82_28 added to the Trump thread) is trying so very, very hard to be fascist that it feels like a hoax, which maybe it is. What if at the same time Mr. Youth doesn't call himself that and denies the label, claims rather to be the real enlightened, modern, progressive, etc.. Can we then describe him as fascist?

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/trump-y ... parasites/
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:28 pm

Bumping this because that other lesser one got bumped instead again. I think always worth a review of the many excellent contributions.

Crossposting my latest reply on the other one:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36836&start=150#p610895
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:43 pm

JackRiddler » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:31 pm wrote:Before they send out death squads
Before pageants in the square
Before the leader speaks law from the balcony
Before the women shudder and the men howl with victory,
Before the bad elements disappear, the cowards are shot fleeing
Before the show trials
When they're still in brownshirts and bloody on the street
Or no, before that,
When they're still good burgers in the beerhall,
Suited and groomed dandies at the club
Angered by what this nation has become
Spitting about parasites and degenerates,
Saying, there ought to be a law,
I'd like to wring their necks,
One day a rain will come,
Look at all these sluts,
Are they fascists?

When they conciliate
When they call jubilees and elections
When they raise the workers wage and
Build a hospital for the poor
When they give an amnesty or name a civilian successor
Are they fascist now?

When the doctors who'd tormented the starving,
when the spymasters traded on their secrets
for a sinecure in Virginia or high office in their own, new, liberal nation
Were they still fascist?

When the arms and advisers sail to your key ally in the region,
When they are regrettably bastards, but your bastards,
Killers and sadists, but graduates of your school,
Planners of hunger and rape, but graduates of your school
Profiteers of blood and slavery, but always with other graduates of your school,
When you're only in it for the profit, and better you than the competition,
When anyway the Communists forced you into this fiendship with the devil,
When the only burning you do is from 30,000 feet or nine thousand miles distance
Does that make you a fascist?

barracuda:

Among other things, fascism is a kind of political reaction and degeneration that visits modern and modernizing societies when they enter severe economic crisis. It is usually a disease of capitalism. To define it as a particular kind of goosestep or style of monumentalism is to deny that it can come to any nation, and that it will have very different forms, and that it will call itself things like popular and socialist, and that it must be recognized and fought long before it reaches the full manifestations that you wish to rigidly define as the sole phenomena worthy of the name. Fascism has always been, curiously, an international phenomenon. One fascist revolution inspires another, they intervene to help each other at least until power is assured. No country lacks its fascists, even when they are not organized and in power. Few people are entirely immune to the fascist drive. I do not exclude the American sponsors of the classical foreign fascist movements and regimes from their guilt, just because they didn't manage to impose the full version here. Some of them tried, we all know the story of the 1934 plot.

And while I don't want to deny the truth of this:

to describe this country as being so does a criminal disservice to the suffering of the millions for whom the general quality of life here - not specific instances of severe repression of which indeed there are many, but the general quality - surely would be a fucking gigantic step in the direction of personal and political freedom.


to put this country under permanent protection from being described by the term in those cases when it does fit is a criminal disservice to the millions who live here in pockets outside that "general quality" to which you and I are privileged and lucky enough to belong, for example, in the world's largest prison system (in part thanks to a demented, delusional, public health policy with some of its roots in eugenic thinking, one that is called a war and pursued with jackboots and seizures of whole housing projects and evictions and yes, shootings of the people who usually lack the "general quality" of paler skin); and it is also a disservice to the hundreds of millions for whom "the general quality of life here" would have indeed been "a fucking gigantic step in the direction of personal and political freedom," only that they had the misfortune to be living, not in one of our designated totalitarian enemies, from whence they could at least expect the doors here to be open for them were they successfully to flee, but in one of our merely authoritarian allies, where our taxes were paying for the bullets and bombs murdering them.

Rosen auf den Weg gestreut

Ihr müßt sie lieb und nett behandeln,

erschreckt sie nicht – sie sind so zart!

Ihr müßt mit Palmen sie umwandeln,

getreulich ihrer Eigenart!

Pfeift euerm Hunde, wenn er kläfft –:

Küßt die Faschisten, wo ihr sie trefft!



Wenn sie in ihren Sälen hetzen,

sagt: »Ja und Amen – aber gern!

Hier habt ihr mich – schlagt mich in Fetzen!«

Und prügeln sie, so lobt den Herrn.

Denn Prügeln ist doch ihr Geschäft!

Küßt die Faschisten, wo ihr sie trefft.



Und schießen sie –: du lieber Himmel,

schätzt ihr das Leben so hoch ein?

Das ist ein Pazifisten-Fimmel!

Wer möchte nicht gern Opfer sein?

Nennt sie: die süßen Schnuckerchen,

gebt ihnen Bonbons und Zuckerchen ...

Und verspürt ihr auch

in euerm Bauch

den Hitler-Dolch, tief, bis zum Heft –:

Küßt die Faschisten, küßt die Faschisten,

küßt die Faschisten, wo ihr sie trefft –!





Theobald Tiger

Die Weltbühne, 31.03.1931, Nr. 13, S. 452.
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