Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby compared2what? » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:35 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.

I await c2w?'s response to my first post on this thread, because I think that by establishing proper usages of the term, and by understanding that fascism does not describe a single form but a continuum, or continua within different contexts, we may resolve most of our apparent differences as misunderstandings.


My apologies.

Canadian_watcher (Motto: "Give me liberty or give me -- wait. Is that pepper spray??? -- um, give me liberty or whatever you've got on offer, that'll be fine, thanks, bye!") is getting her wish.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:42 am

compared2what? wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:.

I await c2w?'s response to my first post on this thread, because I think that by establishing proper usages of the term, and by understanding that fascism does not describe a single form but a continuum, or continua within different contexts, we may resolve most of our apparent differences as misunderstandings.


My apologies.

Canadian_watcher (Motto: "Give me liberty or give me -- wait. Is that pepper spray??? -- um, give me liberty or whatever you've got on offer, that'll be fine, thanks, bye!") is getting her wish.


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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby barracuda » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:50 am

My guess is that c2w finds the analogies such as those drawn by Canadian Watcher between true fascism and what we get in America or Canada to be insufferable. There's not much finely drawn nuance in the land of the fascists. The fascists don't subtly threaten dissenters or use pepper spray against protest - they send the squadristi to beat the fuck out of you at your home and they kill you, all of you, until the line is toed.

Further, to equate c2w's attempt to explain this distinction with the tactics of Limbaugh is a) sheer douchebaggery of a low order, and b) a demonstration of a breathless lack of acknowledgment of the personal and political realities of the everyday lives of a considerable swath of the world's population.

JackRiddler wrote:Like others here you may be making the mistake of being too specific in what you expect of the term.


I don't think a sharp case can be made for the usefulness of expanding the term beyond handy recognizability. And the aesthetic aspects of fascism are, I'd like to think, integral to the philosophy, especially in terms of cohesive nationalistic identifiers. It sort of pulls the room together, culturally. And without a room-puller-togetherer, fascism just ain't really fascist. Because a fundamental aspect of the ideology is community composed of nationals bound by their similarities against their foes. Sometimes racially bound, but always culturally. That's what creates the authoritarian pyramid. At the top are the archetypes of nationalism which certain submissive groups of the proletariat yearn to resemble, to emulate, to commune with for their own ends, for their own profit at times of crisis. And by committing themselves to this yearning they segregate and separate those who fail to fit into the national mold, by force if necessary. Nationalism is itself a fascistic kernel, and needs just a push in the right direction to become fascism whole.

Fascism is, to me, a far-right political form because it's ultimately fanatically culturally exclusive and social darwinist, drawing its exceptionalism from the supremacist authority of the archetypical national character in opposition to forces - cultural, military, ideological, or especially economic - in conflict with it. These aims of cohesion require the crushing of political opposition, curtailment of freedom of speech, outlawing opposing parties or points of view, massive and immersive indoctrination, etc., in order to create a fundamentally homogenous society. This reactionary requirement to homogenize against the conflicting forces, the cult of nationalism and the accompanying intolerance - is so essential to fascism that without it you're really talking about something else.

True fascism is horrifying enough that there's no point in watering down the meaning of it so dilute as to try and make it fit as a shorthand for the United States. I'm not accusing you of that shorthand, Jack, just commenting on the general idea that there are places that are truly fascist, and to describe this country as being so does a criminal disservice to the suffering of the millions for whom the general quality of life here - not specific instances of severe repression of which indeed there are many, but the general quality - surely would be a fucking gigantic step in the direction of personal and political freedom.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby dada » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:02 am

Here in the USA we have our capitalist masters of the universe to resemble and emulate etc, and we have our fascist aesthetic, Hollywood.

Sure it's more dangerous to speak up in other places. It's also safer in some other places. Still, fascism is alive and well in America. Or so it seems to me.

Also: "The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre." - Frank Zappa

Edited to add tired old overused Zappa quote
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby dada » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:23 am

And that death squad that beats the fuck out of you at your home and kills until the line is toed? Possibly trained by Americans. But you know this.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:04 am

Human nature demonstrates above all else the biological knack for clan-like self-preservation. This tends more towards authoritarianism than collectivism.

re: Communism vs. Fascism:
Communism is a community in which the working class controls the means of production, which has proved to be an impossibility for longer than a few months. Fascism seems more likely to come by, for that same working class always allows itself to be represented by its chosen heroes, who, when not outright ego-maniacal have certainly proven themselves corruptible.

The extent to which we view the US of A as fascist or becoming so (or the extent to which we find it important to say that it's not) depends an awful lot on whether or not we sense our being able to preserve a relatively desirable way of life for ourselves and our most immediate associates. So as relative definitions go, no matter how bad things get, there will always be those who can and will disclaim the fascist label.

Not that it is unreasonable to find the label itself unnecessarily divisive, for as Godwin's Law rightfully dictates, nothing is comparable to Nazi Germany, which has, like it or not, become Fascism's standard bearer. In this sense, the tolerance for relativizing our way out of thinking of ourselves as fascist is higher than the tolerance for relativizing our way into thinking of ourselves as fascist. So far.

Maybe this in and of itself means we can never again reach the state of Fascism. Or maybe it means we can never escape it. Relatively speaking, or course.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby barracuda » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:36 am

dada wrote:Here in the USA we have our capitalist masters of the universe to resemble and emulate etc, and we have our fascist aesthetic, Hollywood.

Sure it's more dangerous to speak up in other places. It's also safer in some other places. Still, fascism is alive and well in America. Or so it seems to me.


As I said, I think nationalism has inherently fascistic aspects, that the creation of a nation-state inherently requires that some people are considered part of it and some people are not. And I'm really not happy that it works that way. But I think we should differentiate between fascistic tendencies, which might easily have been ascribed to, say, my fifth-grade teacher, and fascism as a political mode of governance. Just because it's dangerous to speak certain words somewhere doesn't mean one is necessarily "living under fascism" or in a police state. Virtually every country recognizes treason as a crime, for example. Fascism entails rather complete repression of all oppositional speech in deference to the single governing party.

Look at the way in which we define fascism for the purposes of this forum:

    This is an anti-fascist board. Propagation of fascist, neo-Nazi and "white pride" causes, including sympathetically linking to sites which advocate such, will not be permitted. This includes revisionist histories of the Holocaust.

The element being stressed here is racial superiority and purity in conflict with another group which is viewed as lesser.

Also: "The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre." - Frank Zappa

Edited to add tired old overused Zappa quote


The Zappa quote isn't really tired. Let's examine that: what is the difference between that "illusion of freedom" and regular, old non-illusory freedom? What is the method for telling one from the other? In other words, should we define freedom as the polar opposite of fascism, and if so, what are the particulars of that definition? Freedom is usually defined as freedom from something else, e.g., coercion, constraints, slavery, detention, or oppression, etc.

dada wrote:And that death squad that beats the fuck out of you at your home and kills until the line is toed? Possibly trained by Americans. But you know this.


The practices of the US exemplified by training and results such as those of the School of the Americas is horrifying, and demonstrate the US as exporting militarism without morality or worse. The question is, though, as much as we'd like that to end, does the lack of morality displayed by the military signify that we are living under fascism? No military that I can think of is renown for it's awesome track record of human rights. So is the existence of a military in and of itself evidence of life under fascism in the country that musters that force?

I think fascism sort of has to begin in the same location as charity.

But hey, listen, the US is fubar, stipulated. I'm just not sure that's the question at hand.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby dada » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:16 pm

Freedom from indefinite detention, freedom from big brother style surveillance. Freedom of speech, freedom to protest outside of a protest pen. These are a few of the illusions.

No, the existence of a military is not evidence of fascism. Training death squads is fascist.

I think using some criteria like "only when all oppositional speech is oppressed, then you have fascism, but not before" creates a space for fascism to flourish. It is giving it a chance to grow by ignoring its steady creep.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby slimmouse » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:28 pm

Great RI discussion , as one might expect.

A few personal observations on the subject ;

Labels such as Communism and Capitalism are to my mind obfuscatory terms, surely designed to confuse and divide. Think of them as 'opposames' - Original terminology not mine, yet surely valid - within the context of this discussion.

'Fascism' and the seemingly age old status quo are rarely far removed from one another. This is essentially characterised by the control of the 0.00001% over the 99.99999%, give or take a few proxy bought and paid for lackeys who believe theyre part of the team.

The above highlighted definition, formerly a national or continental phenomena is rapidly becoming, courtesy of modern technologies, a globally consolidated phenomenon.

As the architects of this age old fascism, as defined above realise that more of its subjects are aware of its existence and machinations, so are these architects revealing their very existence, through the actions of their proxies.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby dada » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:36 pm

And I hate to keep bringing it up, but the Hollywood blockbuster industry really feels like it has that fascist aesthetic in many ways. In the action movies especially. Perhaps the board is still shell shocked from the keyword hijack theory and doesn't want to go anywhere near a critical analysis of Hollywood for a while. I can understand that.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby Hunter » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:27 pm

How do you all fit the Koch brothers in to this fascist equation, they are blurring the lines and coming up with new ways to buy the American Political Process. Chck out Friday's USA TODAY big article on them, what they are doing, what they believe in and what their stated agenda is.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:31 pm

Before they send out death squads
Before pageants in the square
Before the leader speaks law from the balcony
Before the women shudder and the men howl with victory,
Before the bad elements disappear, the cowards are shot fleeing
Before the show trials
When they're still in brownshirts and bloody on the street
Or no, before that,
When they're still good burgers in the beerhall,
Suited and groomed dandies at the club
Angered by what this nation has become
Spitting about parasites and degenerates,
Saying, there ought to be a law,
I'd like to wring their necks,
One day a rain will come,
Look at all these sluts,
Are they fascists?

When they conciliate
When they call jubilees and elections
When they raise the workers wage and
Build a hospital for the poor
When they give an amnesty or name a civilian successor
Are they fascist now?

When the doctors who'd tormented the starving,
when the spymasters traded on their secrets
for a sinecure in Virginia or high office in their own, new, liberal nation
Were they still fascist?

When the arms and advisers sail to your key ally in the region,
When they are regrettably bastards, but your bastards,
Killers and sadists, but graduates of your school,
Planners of hunger and rape, but graduates of your school
Profiteers of blood and slavery, but always with other graduates of your school,
When you're only in it for the profit, and better you than the competition,
When anyway the Communists forced you into this fiendship with the devil,
When the only burning you do is from 30,000 feet or nine thousand miles distance
Does that make you a fascist?

barracuda:

Among other things, fascism is a kind of political reaction and degeneration that visits modern and modernizing societies when they enter severe economic crisis. It is usually a disease of capitalism. To define it as a particular kind of goosestep or style of monumentalism is to deny that it can come to any nation, and that it will have very different forms, and that it will call itself things like popular and socialist, and that it must be recognized and fought long before it reaches the full manifestations that you wish to rigidly define as the sole phenomena worthy of the name. Fascism has always been, curiously, an international phenomenon. One fascist revolution inspires another, they intervene to help each other at least until power is assured. No country lacks its fascists, even when they are not organized and in power. Few people are entirely immune to the fascist drive. I do not exclude the American sponsors of the classical foreign fascist movements and regimes from their guilt, just because they didn't manage to impose the full version here. Some of them tried, we all know the story of the 1934 plot.

And while I don't want to deny the truth of this:

to describe this country as being so does a criminal disservice to the suffering of the millions for whom the general quality of life here - not specific instances of severe repression of which indeed there are many, but the general quality - surely would be a fucking gigantic step in the direction of personal and political freedom.


to put this country under permanent protection from being described by the term in those cases when it does fit is a criminal disservice to the millions who live here in pockets outside that "general quality" to which you and I are privileged and lucky enough to belong, for example, in the world's largest prison system (in part thanks to a demented, delusional, public health policy with some of its roots in eugenic thinking, one that is called a war and pursued with jackboots and seizures of whole housing projects and evictions and yes, shootings of the people who usually lack the "general quality" of paler skin); and it is also a disservice to the hundreds of millions for whom "the general quality of life here" would have indeed been "a fucking gigantic step in the direction of personal and political freedom," only that they had the misfortune to be living, not in one of our designated totalitarian enemies, from whence they could at least expect the doors here to be open for them were they successfully to flee, but in one of our merely authoritarian allies, where our taxes were paying for the bullets and bombs murdering them.

Rosen auf den Weg gestreut

Ihr müßt sie lieb und nett behandeln,

erschreckt sie nicht – sie sind so zart!

Ihr müßt mit Palmen sie umwandeln,

getreulich ihrer Eigenart!

Pfeift euerm Hunde, wenn er kläfft –:

Küßt die Faschisten, wo ihr sie trefft!



Wenn sie in ihren Sälen hetzen,

sagt: »Ja und Amen – aber gern!

Hier habt ihr mich – schlagt mich in Fetzen!«

Und prügeln sie, so lobt den Herrn.

Denn Prügeln ist doch ihr Geschäft!

Küßt die Faschisten, wo ihr sie trefft.



Und schießen sie –: du lieber Himmel,

schätzt ihr das Leben so hoch ein?

Das ist ein Pazifisten-Fimmel!

Wer möchte nicht gern Opfer sein?

Nennt sie: die süßen Schnuckerchen,

gebt ihnen Bonbons und Zuckerchen ...

Und verspürt ihr auch

in euerm Bauch

den Hitler-Dolch, tief, bis zum Heft –:

Küßt die Faschisten, küßt die Faschisten,

küßt die Faschisten, wo ihr sie trefft –!





Theobald Tiger

Die Weltbühne, 31.03.1931, Nr. 13, S. 452.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby brainpanhandler » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:00 pm

c2w wrote:Canadian_watcher is getting her wish.


Sigh. I hope you don't mean this:

Canadian_watcher wrote: i'm leaving... not forever, but just for a while. I'm not leaving. I only wrote it because I think I heard that somewhere once (or fifty times) on RI.


I'll hold off on a response until I know you're still here to respond.

And you, Canadian_watcher.... :fingerwag: :uncertain:
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:17 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:
c2w wrote:Canadian_watcher is getting her wish.


Sigh. I hope you don't mean this:

Canadian_watcher wrote: i'm leaving... not forever, but just for a while. I'm not leaving. I only wrote it because I think I heard that somewhere once (or fifty times) on RI.


I'll hold off on a response until I know you're still here to respond.

And you, Canadian_watcher.... :fingerwag: :uncertain:


tha fuck?

some of you need a little white hanky dropping smilie.

lawdy
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:21 pm

to debate whether or not something is fascist by DEGREE is mindless.

that's what is (trying) to happen here.

Fascism = fascism whether or not that means that the state punishes by death or jail sentence for dissenters.

just as

Racism = racism whether or not the racist expresses him/herself by murder or ostracism.

If people are not free to question their government in front of their government without fear of reprisal, you are living under a fascist-leaning regime. The degree is only worth discussing insofar as you can say "it's this bad now, and if they get away with it it is just going to get worse."

this point has already been eloquently made, I know.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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