Mansplaining

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby barracuda » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:22 pm

Your placid acceptance of the world as you find it is disappointing at best, a danger to others at worst, and fine evidence of your privileged status somewhere in between.
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Postby Perelandra » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:47 pm

jlaw172364 wrote:There's a big difference between these things happening to a minor on private property repeatedly and them happening one time, albeit serially from different men in a public space to a grown woman.

With private property, the perpetrators know where their target lives, and can come back when no adult supervision is around. Plus, the girl is minor, and as a latchkey kid, suffers from a shortage of parental supervision.

You absolutely did the right thing, because what can start off as harmless hanging out can quickly lead to adolescent pregnancy, or worse.
You missed the point of my anecdote. There's a common thread here that women's voices, regardless the age, are not being heard. In both cases, the UNWANTED attention was rejected, yet continued or escalated into potentially criminal behavior. In my friend's situation, the authority figure who should have been helpful sought to assign blame to her, or excuse the perpetrators, as you seem to want to do to the woman on the train.

Also, people seem to equate being hit on with the threat of imminent death or bodily injury, when it could also be viewed as a minor annoyance.
There are always those threats, kept in mind by most women in some form if they're sensible.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:59 pm

jlaw172364 wrote:So, a man can never understand feminism better than a woman. It doesn't matter how many books he reads, or how much he thinks on the subject, or if the woman he's compared to is an illiterate moron with no interest in the subject who watches TV all day long. She automatically understands because she's a woman.


Do you even know any kind of man besides "straw"?

Nobody said, suggested or hinted at any of the above.

This...

compared2what? wrote:
jlaw172364 wrote:
Now, is there an explanation for this phenomenon that gets away from the whole "men are from mars, women are from venus" tail-chasing?


Image


...is not a comment on the male capacity for understanding feminism GENERALLY.

It was addressed to you. Specifically.


Understanding is a mind thing, not a body thing.


Dualism is divisive.

I'd wager that minds are gender neutral.


Straw.

Disagreeing with a handful of women does not equal misogyny.



Straw.

Some men used to say that women couldn't understand certain subjects. In fact, some men with expertise in any field think that women can't grasp the subject as well as men.


Straw.

Some men.


Just want to watch the world burn.

This "men will never understsand as well as women" smacks of similar thinking to me.




All you need is one genius that can articulate a more cogent theory and the model collapses.

But go ahead and believe whatever you like.


And you.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:42 am

jlaw172364 wrote:Nothing she did put her at risk?

Being alive puts you at risk of death,


Certain risk. But being alive is not, strictly speaking, something she was doing.

jlaw172364 wrote:suitors suitor suitor suitors suitor


No.

That's a new low. And in light of the neglected latchkey child at risk for adolescent pregnancy or worse, that's really saying something.

Oh, well. Hat-tip, I guess.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby jlaw172364 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:57 am

If you walk up to some guy reading a book or listening to an I-pod and start talking to him, and his reaction is to yell at you to leave him alone, you might react REFLEXIVELY by calling him a jerk. And then if he writes an article about how people are constantly coming up to him and talking to him when he wants to be left alone, and then reacting poorly when he yells at them, or otherwise dismisses him in a rude manner, you'd think he was a weirdo.

But if someone goes and talks to a woman, she's at risk of being brutalized. According to her, none of those guys even asked her out. She didn't let them get that far. Maybe they were just being friendly. We'll never know. We weren't there. We don't hear their side of the story, just hers. She basically stated that when she reads a book on the train while wearing a fake wedding ring people might not notice, people are automatically supposed to know not to dare approach her and talk to her. And if they do cross her invisible, imaginary line, she has license to yell at them as if they were grabbing her boobs, because any speech directed at her while she's reading her book is automatically sexual harrassment, according to her unilateral standard.

Was she in danger of being gang-raped on the train in front of a bunch of onlookers? No. Did anyone touch her? No. They got in her space, but maybe there was an alternate explanation, like it was loud on the train, or they're close talkers and do that to everyone.

I think she acted in an imperious manner that exacerbated the situations that naturally occur as a result of going in public.

None of you bothered to address the "what if" she actually received advances from someone she found desirable scenario.

It's only harrassment if they girl thinks the guy is unworthy of her time.

I've heard it time and time again. Some guy will do some relatively innocuous thing, and it's "creepy" because the girl doesn't like the girl.

The creep asked me out.

The creep wrote me a poem.

The creep sent me flowers.

The creep called me and left me a voice-message.

Guys do the same thing too.

Ew, that ugly girl hit on me!

Ew, that ugly girl keeps following me around.

However, nobody cares if the person is someone they're actually attracted to.

Being hit on in public is another poodle complaint.

Complaining that SOME guys abreact to your imperious, humiliating dismissal is another poodle complaint.

BTW, NOBODY commented on what I wrote about the disadvantages of being a woman in third world country. Doesn't anyone want to critique what I wrote? Maybe I left some important thing out? How do third world female grievances stack up against first world female grievances?

In a society where nobody actually listens to women, there are no female writers allowed to publish online for an audience, and in any case there is no audience of women who is literate, or if literate, willing to read said writers. Such societies actually exist.

I mean, I'm obviously listening. I'm just not agreeing unequivocably with an opinion on one narrow topic.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby jlaw172364 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:16 am

I'd like to live in a world where people can smoke joints on the street corner without fear of arrest. However, smoking a joint on the street corner is risky behavior that could lead to an arrest under the current regime. Advising people to disregard that risk is bad advice, and can lead to them getting into trouble.

Telling someone that they should continue to react in a way to behavior they don't like that has proven to lead to problems is not good advice.

It reminds of a video online where a guy angrily yells at another guy to turn his loud boombox down in a demanding, imperious tone. Instead of turning it down as demanded, the boombox guy punches the angry guy in the face repeatedly. Would it be sound advice to advise him to try that strategy again the next time the situation arises? Would it do any good to lament a world where a man playing a loud boombox responds with violence to an imperious demanding request to turn it down, even the request is justified since the boombox is loud? Would it do any good to denounce people who advise a different approach in such situations? Surely the man playing the boombox, even if in the wrong, should at least initially get a polite request that allows him to save face.

I was recently in a court room, and while talking to a prosecutor, at the prosecutors request, a bailiff barked an order at me to "sit down." He didn't say please. He didn't say "sir, would you kindly." He didn't even say it quietly. He barked out: "Sit down." Naturally, I was incensed at his approach, but I kept my cool. Sure, he was within his rights. Sure, he was wearing a uniform. But his approach was dumb. What I might an unstable person with nothing to lose have done in a futile attempt to recover lost dignity? Maybe the guy was bored and looking to provoke me into a fight. Maybe he was just throwing his weight around like a bully asshole.

Would it have been a good idea to call him out on his bad behavior in open court? Probably not, for similar reasons. He would have escalated to save face.

You cannot expect people to automatically understand how to treat you, and you cannot predict how they will react to your behavior, and if you behave in a way that they can reasonably perceive as robbing them of face, you may reasonably expect them to lash out at you, even if you feel your behavior is justified.

I used the term suitor as a tongue-in-cheek.

A teen pregnancy is a possible outcome of letting an adolescent hang around with older men who might take advantage of her naivete. Did I misunderstand something with regard to that?
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:26 am

jlaw172364 wrote:If you walk up to some guy reading a book or listening to an I-pod and start talking to him, and his reaction is to yell at you to leave him alone, you might react REFLEXIVELY by calling him a jerk.


No. I absolutely wouldn't. My reflexive reaction would be to apologize and leave him alone. And that would be self-protective on my part.

ON EDIT: I'd also probably cry, tbh. I mean, assuming that the reason I'd approached was that I felt a real interest in him. But I'd try to turn my back or something first. Because I wouldn't want a hot guy to feel bad over my error in judgment.

The thing is, though: I wouldn't just walk up to a guy (or, ftm, anybody) who was reading a book or listening to music and start talking to him, her or them, unless he, she or they had given me some indication that it was an in-bounds approach. Via smiles and eye contact. Or whatever. But you know. The standard signs of invitation/interest.

Since you asked.


And then if he writes an article about how people are constantly coming up to him and talking to him when he wants to be left alone, and then reacting poorly when he yells at them, or otherwise dismisses him in a rude manner, you'd think he was a weirdo.

But if someone goes and talks to a woman, she's at risk of being brutalized. According to her, none of those guys even asked her out. She didn't let them get that far. Maybe they were just being friendly. We'll never know. We weren't there. We don't hear their side of the story, just hers. She basically stated that when she reads a book on the train while wearing a fake wedding ring people might not notice, people are automatically supposed to know not to dare approach her and talk to her. And if they do cross her invisible, imaginary line, she has license to yell at them as if they were grabbing her boobs, because any speech directed at her while she's reading her book is automatically sexual harrassment, according to her unilateral standard.


Men who aggressively hit on women who are complete strangers to them in public when they have absolutely no reasonable expectation of scoring -- which is, on average, 99.9 percent of the time in a non-social situation -- aren't seeking to have any other kind of sexual thrill than the one they get from humiliating, frightening or otherwise managing to impose on her.

You seem to be under the impression....

Hold on just one second. I'll be right back.


None of you bothered to address the "what if" she actually received advances from someone she found desirable scenario.


I just did. More in a moment. Except to say quickly...

It's only harrassment if they girl thinks the guy is unworthy of her time.


...and when it has one "r."
Last edited by compared2what? on Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:51 am

Okay. Let's start here.

jlaw172364 wrote:These men didn't know she was going to reject them in advance or else they wouldn't have bothered. They thought she might say "yes" to them. That's why they tried to talk to her. They weren't doing it just to harrass her. Or at least, that's not the only conclusion you can draw from reading what she wrote.


Ha.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right. These men didn't know she was going to reject them in advance, or they wouldn't have bothered.

Even with that granted, they either:

(a) also didn't know she was going to welcome them in advance; or

(b) didn't give a fuck about what she wanted.

__________________

As I was saying when I interrupted myself:

You seem to be under the impression that the thing that makes street hassle a hassle is the offense given by the expression of sexual interest. It isn't. It's the apprehension about what form the anger (or other attempt to induce fear, or guilt, or humiliation, or whatever) at not having it reciprocated may take.

It unequivocably turned into harrassment after she rejected them, because they tried to save face. This isn't to say that there aren't men who run around just harrassing women with no serious intent to go out with them, but the author didn't make it clear that this was the case.


Getting back to that "Ha":

What fucking planet of women who are sexually available to strangers on public transportation to you live on? It turned into harassment after she rejected them? Why is she more obligated to their feelings than they are to hers, precisely?

If you can't take no for an answer , don't ask. How complicated is that?
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:03 am

jlaw172364 wrote:
Was she in danger of being gang-raped on the train in front of a bunch of onlookers? No. Did anyone touch her? No. They got in her space, but maybe there was an alternate explanation, like it was loud on the train, or they're close talkers and do that to everyone.

I think she acted in an imperious manner that exacerbated the situations that naturally occur as a result of going in public.


That's as vile as "suitor." Imperious, huh? Must be one of them sovereign citizens or something.


Being hit on in public is another poodle complaint.


Sometimes I really wish those Twilight Zone episodes with the ironic reversals could be real.

Complaining that SOME guys abreact to your imperious, humiliating dismissal is another poodle complaint.


I don't see anybody complaining about personal issues besides you.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby 82_28 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:48 am

I personally think this thread is whistling in the graveyard, as they say.

As for the woman in transit story. Same fucking shit happens to me and probably to us all.

Last March I get off the light rail in the downtown tunnel. Ascend stairs. Get on sidewalk and light cigarette.

Girl asks me for a smoke and money and I said nope. Fuck, they're motherfucking 10 bucks a pack.

Well she and some dude start following me. Dude says, "yeah you fucking do." "You got smokes and you got money, motherfucker."

They followed me for about two blocks and at a certain corner I said to them, "If you need some fucking smokes, bro, there's a cigarette store right fucking there." They basically left me alone after that.

However, I don't doubt how frightened I was was any more or less than the woman in the tale. I literally did not know what to do if it escalated. Should I run? Should I fight? Was I about to get shot? I didn't fucking know. It happens to us all. You can't fix crazy.

Just don't be a lone woman who smokes downtown!
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:09 am

82_28 wrote:I personally think this thread is whistling in the graveyard, as they say.

As for the woman in transit story. Same fucking shit happens to me and probably to us all.

Last March I get off the light rail in the downtown tunnel. Ascend stairs. Get on sidewalk and light cigarette.


Last March, you say?

Girl asks me for a smoke and money and I said nope. Fuck, they're motherfucking 10 bucks a pack.

Well she and some dude start following me. Dude says, "yeah you fucking do." "You got smokes and you got money, motherfucker."

They followed me for about two blocks and at a certain corner I said to them, "If you need some fucking smokes, bro, there's a cigarette store right fucking there." They basically left me alone after that.

However, I don't doubt how frightened I was was any more or less than the woman in the tale. I literally did not know what to do if it escalated. Should I run? Should I fight? Was I about to get shot? I didn't fucking know. It happens to us all.


It happens to her whenever she takes the train.

Also, when what your persecutor wants is your cigarettes, conflict is not your only option in the event that things escalate.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby sw » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:40 am

People can be crazy and their reactions speak about their state of mind.

I'd respond in a monotone voice that I'm sick and feel like vomiting so can't talk now. Or I have a migraine and can't talk because I feel like vomiting.

Then cough and make a gagging noise and they might flee.

Or continue with this and have a tissue in your hand to make fake vomit / cough sounds and they'll leave....hopefully.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby barracuda » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:35 pm

I don't find it tremendously important in this context to discuss various conciliatory strategies a woman might consider in response to harassment on a train. They all boil down to the same thing, some sort of acquiescence to oppression. We might just as easily be putting forth suggestions as to just what firearms or other self-defense weapons are most conveniently carried on a woman's person. (I recommend a .32 cal pocket pistol - the Kel-Tec P-32 carries eight rounds, weighs six ounces and can be purchased for as little as $300. In the close confines of a train, higher caliber stopping power is less important than concealment and the handiness of a smaller gun, but the small caliber is nicely offset with the Kel-Tec's eight shots and the ability to easily fire a sixty grain hollow point).

I don't normally expect to see discussions here on the best ways in which to cringe in deference in order that your oppressors don't get hurt feelings. But maybe we need a new subforum for ideas about the proper prostration methods suitable for the permanent underclass.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:38 pm

sw wrote:People can be crazy and their reactions speak about their state of mind.
I'd respond in a monotone voice that I'm sick and feel like vomiting so can't talk now. Or I have a migraine and can't talk because I feel like vomiting.

Then cough and make a gagging noise and they might flee.

Or continue with this and have a tissue in your hand to make fake vomit / cough sounds and they'll leave....hopefully.


It's true that they might.

But they might also sit down and start asking you repeatedly if you felt better while offering advice about migraines, mansplainingly or in some other manner.

Or they might hang around taunting you and making gagging noises.

Or (if they thought that you really were semi-incapacitated) they might just think "Naturally roofied!" and try physically to hustle you into the rest room (or wherever), if assault was what they had in mind.

________________________

There's no single magic formula, I don't think. And why should there be? All men are not alike. However, fwiw, as a general rule, I wouldn't volunteer any kind of personal information about myself as a first line of defense.

...

I guess that when non-response isn't an option, a brief, formulaically courteous response is usually the safest way to go, in my experience. But that's how I talk to strangers in situations that don't include more specific social/environmental cues of some kind anyway, just out of pure, ordinary civility. So it might not actually have any real advantages apart from its convenience and my comfort level with it.

Although I have to admit that the latter is mostly contingent on how profoundly and thoroughly I accept that I'm existentially obligated to offer some form of compensation/appeasement to any men whose integrity and peace of mind I rudely disturb/transgress upon by being of sexual interest to them.

So I'm not so sure that it's really an advantage. Ultimately.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby compared2what? » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:39 pm

barracuda wrote:I don't find it tremendously important in this context to discuss various conciliatory strategies a woman might consider in response to harassment on a train. They all boil down to the same thing, some sort of acquiescence to oppression. We might just as easily be putting forth suggestions as to just what firearms or other self-defense weapons are most conveniently carried on a woman's person. (I recommend a .32 cal pocket pistol - the Kel-Tec P-32 carries eight rounds, weighs six ounces and can be purchased for as little as $300. In the close confines of a train, higher caliber stopping power is less important than concealment and the handiness of a smaller gun, but the small caliber is nicely offset with the Kel-Tec's eight shots and the ability to easily fire a sixty grain hollow point).

I don't normally expect to see discussions here on the best ways in which to cringe in deference in order that your oppressors don't get hurt feelings. But maybe we need a new subforum for ideas about the proper prostration methods suitable for the permanent underclass.


As you say.
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