Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby DrEvil » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:02 pm

My replies in bold:

smiths » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:05 am wrote:blasphemy for blaspemy's sake is for 12 year olds

No, blasphemy is necessary. Until religious people stop killing those who blaspheme it should be done on a daily basis, everywhere. You can't have a dialog with someone who tries to kill you when you say the wrong thing.

interfaith dialogue to overcome hatred does not begin by everyone sitting round insulting each others faith as delusional

I couldn't care less about interfaith dialogue. As far as I'm concerned they're all delusional and should be consigned to history.

if you you think you have a rational alternative you yourself are delusional

This is a dis-ingenious statement. Not involving god in the equation is not delusional. It's the rational thing to do. You can't measure god, detect him or in any way, shape or form prove that he exists, so for all intents and purposes he doesn't. The rational thing to do is to assume that he doesn't.

science explains mechanics, it doesn't explain beginnings or endings

Patently wrong. See for instance abiogenesis.

atheism is unprovable for the same reasons as religion

There is nothing whatsoever that indicates that god(s) exist. Not being able to explain something in nature does not equal 'God exists'. With zero evidence to support his existence, the logical conclusion is that he doesn't, ergo atheism. All the evidence (or lack thereof) points there.

the big bang is a religious tale - something out of nothing, the universe is almost certainly one in a multiverse, and the most likely explanation for it all is that it is infinite and we, as finite and insignificant beings, will never be able to comprehend it

The current observations and understanding of the laws of nature supports the big bang theory. If someone comes up with a better explanation I'd be happy to consider it, but it has to be better than "God did it!".

recognising that some people have beliefs that you may not agree with and respecting them as people first is the way forward

Like Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld?
I respect the person (the pope seems like a decent guy), but I don't respect his beliefs.


the Pope went against the global sheep movement by pointing out that attacking others' faith is not in the spirit of building a better world

No, he basically said the same thing as the Charlie Hebdo gunmen, only without killing anyone.

isnt that what you all want?


Can't speak for the others, but I want a world free from organized religion. It belongs in the history books, not the news.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby Searcher08 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:07 pm

Reductionist nonsense from start to finish.

No, blasphemy is necessary. Until religious people stop killing those who blaspheme it should be done on a daily basis, everywhere. You can't have a dialog with someone who tries to kill you when you say the wrong thing.


You are separating the religious people who kill those who blaspheme from their mindset creators, which I suggest (for example with the mujaheddin and Taliban) doesn't come from Islam but more from psyops specialists in the US, who re-engineered a pretty easy going tolerant Sufi influenced faith into one more suitable for geopolitical ends.

Your conditions on dialogue remind me of the UK Government allowing Sinn Fein to be seen but not heard, as they were terrorists and you cant talk to the same people who are bombing you.

Yes you can.

I couldn't care less about interfaith dialogue. As far as I'm concerned they're all delusional and should be consigned to history.


You are conflating the necessity for communication between human beings (often of very different cultures) with their ideas.
How specifically, in actuality, do you propose "consigning a person to history"?

This is a dis-ingenious statement. Not involving god in the equation is not delusional. It's the rational thing to do. You can't measure god, detect him or in any way, shape or form prove that he exists, so for all intents and purposes he doesn't. The rational thing to do is to assume that he doesn't.


Are you familiar with a) Modal logic? and b) Kurt Godel?
They point to you being incorrect.

There is nothing whatsoever that indicates that god(s) exist. Not being able to explain something in nature does not equal 'God exists'. With zero evidence to support his existence, the logical conclusion is that he doesn't, ergo atheism. All the evidence (or lack thereof) points there.


Well, Godel's Ontological Proof is certainly a something.
Logical conclusions according to which system of logic? Classical binary logic? That is like trying to discuss numbers like Pi without access to the Real numbers R, not the Rational Numbers Q.

One tangential thing about evidence is that this is often used as a shibboleth "There is no evidence!!", yet often what constitutes evidence doesn't come from a vacuum, it often emerges / comes from within a social system that would be invalidated if evidence against their core beliefs came about.

This is why reductionists like yourself are allergic to the work of people like Sheldrake and Hancock and McKenna and seek to have them suppressed / disregarded. These folks take aim at the whole drab mechanistic edifice and question it, revealing it as just another branch of fundamentalism.

One day the ideas of people like Dawkins and Dennett will studied in The Quaint Theory of Scientism
and other Fundie Belief Systems (that insisted they were NOT).
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby zangtang » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:12 pm

'The rational thing to do is to assume that he doesn't.'

thats incorrect.
until as such time as we can explain the creation of something from nothing..............

i think we should assume that he does
- even if the sad and sorry history of humanity proves to us that 'organised religion'
is and always has been a top down social control.........gambit
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby smiths » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:04 am

honestly, one of these days we'll find that fucking particle that proves all the theories, its here somewhere ...

its probably hiding behind the Dark Matter and Dark Energy which constitute 84.5% of the mass of the universe,
Dark Energy apparently permeates all of space and tends to accelerate the expansion of the universe (but only on Tuesdays)
there is of course no actual evidence of either of their existences, other than their being inferred or hypothesized because the standard model of cosmology doesn't make sense without them
The expansion of the Universe is of course also inferred, from the 'apparent' red shift of everything we point a telescope at

The genius of the theory can be boiled down roughly to this,
"Oh look, its all moving away from us, it must be expanding ... and if you run that in reverse, it must have all all come from a single point and exploded outwards in a instant - a big bang"

if you take a good look at the theoretical nonsense on stilts that is the standard theory of cosmology it looks a hell of a lot like the wheels within wheels theories of the late Middle Ages


So here are my ruminations on space,

The existence of God cannot be proven.
And yet it cannot be stated with certainty that God does not exist.
The beginning, structure, nature, purpose and extent of space cannot be explained by science.
It cannot, therefore, be ruled out that space and time are in fact infinite, incomprehensible to finite little sparks like ourselves.
The likelihood is that the 15 billion light year 'edge' of space is simply the limit of what we can see.
The multiverse makes far more sense than the universe. But hey, that's just speculation.


The point is that agnosticism is more rational than atheism, and it allows more space for building positive human communities than mechanistic atheism does
There is no difference between a fanatical atheist and a fanatical Hindu, Christian or Buddhist.

It is those that see only black and white that I fear, it is those that talk in absolutes and are convinced of the their own rightness and the 'others' wrongness
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby jingofever » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:07 am

smiths » 18 Jan 2015 05:04 wrote:honestly, one of these days we'll find that fucking particle that proves all the theories, its here somewhere ...

It is at least interesting that some poorly mutated apes could theorize a particle back in the sixties and others could predict that if you built a certain machine you could find scraps of leftovers that are consistent with that particle decaying and not quite anything else. That particle does not prove all theories but it does prove one of the most important.

its probably hiding behind the Dark Matter and Dark Energy which constitute 84.5% of the mass of the universe,
Dark Energy apparently permeates all of space and tends to accelerate the expansion of the universe (but only on Tuesdays)
there is of course no actual evidence of either of their existences, other than their being inferred or hypothesized because the standard model of cosmology doesn't make sense without them
The expansion of the Universe is of course also inferred, from the 'apparent' red shift of everything we point a telescope at

The genius of the theory can be boiled down roughly to this,
"Oh look, its all moving away from us, it must be expanding ... and if you run that in reverse, it must have all all come from a single point and exploded outwards in a instant - a big bang"

I am not an expert, probably not even a layman, but from what I understand the common understanding of the big bang and cosmology in general is misunderstood. Both the evidence and the process. Look here. Some of those pages reference the BICEP2 results which are worth now a pile of dog shit but that does not matter so much. Of course it will all eventually come down to the question of what was there before and everything, science, religion, even Scientology, cannot answer. "Science" admits it does not and perhaps cannot know while religion simply repeats, "God".

The existence of God cannot be proven.
And yet it cannot be stated with certainty that God does not exist.

The existence of a lot of things cannot be proven and nor can it be stated with certainty that those things do not exist. It is only a historical accident that the absurd idea of a god has persisted.

The beginning, structure, nature, purpose and extent of space cannot be explained by science.
It cannot, therefore, be ruled out that space and time are in fact infinite, incomprehensible to finite little sparks like ourselves.
The likelihood is that the 15 billion light year 'edge' of space is simply the limit of what we can see.
The multiverse makes far more sense than the universe. But hey, that's just speculation.

There are theories about the beginning, structure, nature, and extent (but not purpose, except for none) of space. I believe the link I pasted above suggests that the "actual" universe may well be infinite and our visible universe is just that, visible, and not entire.

The point is that agnosticism is more rational than atheism, and it allows more space for building positive human communities than mechanistic atheism does
There is no difference between a fanatical atheist and a fanatical Hindu, Christian or Buddhist.

Agnosticism may be more rational but I do not think it is more honest.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:20 pm

Last edited by seemslikeadream on Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby 82_28 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:36 pm

Of a semi-note, I was watching CNN and they said "his visit in Puerto Rico" and I was like fuck, I thought he was in the Philippines. Yeah, CNN is an authority.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby DrEvil » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:11 pm

Searcher08 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:07 am wrote:Reductionist nonsense from start to finish.

No, blasphemy is necessary. Until religious people stop killing those who blaspheme it should be done on a daily basis, everywhere. You can't have a dialog with someone who tries to kill you when you say the wrong thing.


You are separating the religious people who kill those who blaspheme from their mindset creators, which I suggest (for example with the mujaheddin and Taliban) doesn't come from Islam but more from psyops specialists in the US, who re-engineered a pretty easy going tolerant Sufi influenced faith into one more suitable for geopolitical ends.

Your conditions on dialogue remind me of the UK Government allowing Sinn Fein to be seen but not heard, as they were terrorists and you cant talk to the same people who are bombing you.

Yes you can.

I couldn't care less about interfaith dialogue. As far as I'm concerned they're all delusional and should be consigned to history.


You are conflating the necessity for communication between human beings (often of very different cultures) with their ideas.
How specifically, in actuality, do you propose "consigning a person to history"?

This is a dis-ingenious statement. Not involving god in the equation is not delusional. It's the rational thing to do. You can't measure god, detect him or in any way, shape or form prove that he exists, so for all intents and purposes he doesn't. The rational thing to do is to assume that he doesn't.


Are you familiar with a) Modal logic? and b) Kurt Godel?
They point to you being incorrect.

There is nothing whatsoever that indicates that god(s) exist. Not being able to explain something in nature does not equal 'God exists'. With zero evidence to support his existence, the logical conclusion is that he doesn't, ergo atheism. All the evidence (or lack thereof) points there.


Well, Godel's Ontological Proof is certainly a something.
Logical conclusions according to which system of logic? Classical binary logic? That is like trying to discuss numbers like Pi without access to the Real numbers R, not the Rational Numbers Q.

One tangential thing about evidence is that this is often used as a shibboleth "There is no evidence!!", yet often what constitutes evidence doesn't come from a vacuum, it often emerges / comes from within a social system that would be invalidated if evidence against their core beliefs came about.

This is why reductionists like yourself are allergic to the work of people like Sheldrake and Hancock and McKenna and seek to have them suppressed / disregarded. These folks take aim at the whole drab mechanistic edifice and question it, revealing it as just another branch of fundamentalism.

One day the ideas of people like Dawkins and Dennett will studied in The Quaint Theory of Scientism
and other Fundie Belief Systems (that insisted they were NOT).


Godel's ontological proof is talking about "some world", not this one.

I'm not allergic to Sheldrake, Hancock or McKenna, I'm just not convinced (especially Hancock).

How specifically, in actuality, do you propose "consigning a person to history"?

I'm not. I'm talking about consigning their beliefs to history.

And just to clarify: I'm not talking about theoretical god-like beings somewhere out there in the multiverse (yes, I agree with you on that part Smiths) but the gods of Earth-based religions, derived from various holy books and ancient beliefs.

Organized religion has been around for millennia (and for most of that time would gladly kill anyone saying they were an atheist. A lot of people still would), and they haven't achieved a fraction of what reductionist science has done in a century. I know where I'll place my bet, because I honestly believe that religion and magical thinking is holding us back as a species.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby RocketMan » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:45 am

The Vatican two-step shuffle goes on...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/pop ... .miozrzLGy

Pope Compares Transgender People To Nuclear Weapons

Recently published remarks by Pope Francis comparing arguments for trans rights to nuclear weapons are the latest in a series of mixed messages the pontiff appears to be sending to LGBT rights supporters.

“Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings,” Francis is quoted as saying in a book first published in Italy in January but that caught the attention of the English-language media over the last week. “Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation … With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator.”
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby NaturalMystik » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:35 pm

Pope Francis predicts 'brief' papacy of 4 or 5 years

Pope Francis has marked the second anniversary of his surprise election by predicting that he won't be pope for long.

In an interview aired Friday with the Mexican broadcaster Televisa, he said: "I have the sensation that my pontificate will be brief: Four or five years. I don't know. Or two or three. Well, two have already passed."

Francis has previously said he thought he'd be pope for two to three years. He said the thing he missed most was being able to go out to get pizza undetected.

At Mass later Friday, Francis also announced a special Jubilee Year to focus the church on his main priority: mercy. It's only the 27th time in the history of the Roman Catholic Church that there has been a Holy Year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pope-franc ... -1.2994151
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:51 pm

LULz.

If he had been actually serious about shit his reign would have lasted about 33 days.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby 82_28 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:05 am

Yeah, he would have cleaned house were he seriously serious about it. Gotten it done and done and said latez! Goes to show basically that the pope really has no power at all.
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby NaturalMystik » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:35 pm

I wonder how much it plays into the papal prophecies. He believes in them and thus assumes he'll have a short reign, or he knows of them and has to play his role. Not sure if the tail is wagging the dog for vice versa, but at the very least I find it an interesting coincidence that he's delcaring a short reign and the prophecy also tells us this...
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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby Nordic » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:12 pm

I rally really hope he's just woefully misinformed and not complicit in the lies of American imperialism.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSK ... 0?irpc=932

Pope urges Putin to make 'sincere, great effort' for Ukraine peace
By Philip Pullella
VATICAN CITY | Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:45pm EDT
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By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A stern Pope Francis urged Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday to make a "sincere and great effort" to achieve peace in Ukraine.

The two met for about 50 minutes and agreed on the need to recreate a climate of dialogue in Ukraine and to implement a peace deal designed to end fighting between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian separatist rebels, the Vatican said.

The meeting underlined how Francis has been increasingly using his role for diplomatic ends - particularly following the deal he brokered last year between Cuba and the United States to resume diplomatic relations after more than half a century.

Putin, who has been shunned by the Group of Seven nations over Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region last year, was received with full honors and regalia at the Vatican, including a ceremonial Swiss Guard welcome.

But the Argentine pope, who is usually chatty with world leaders when they enter his study, seemed stiff and exceptionally formal when he greeted Putin with a curt "willkommen" (welcome) in German. Both men remained silent until reporters were ushered out.

The tone of the Vatican statement after Wednesday's meeting also suggested Francis had been blunt with Putin behind closed doors. The word "cordial," which is used in nearly every Vatican statement about the pope's talks with a world leader, did not appear.

Earlier on Wednesday, the U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, Ken Hackett, urged it to criticize Russia's involvement in the Ukraine conflict more forcefully.

"It does seem that Russia is supporting the insurgents and does seem that there are Russian troops inside Ukraine," Hackett said.

Moscow has dismissed Western accusations that it is arming the separatists in eastern Ukraine and sending its own soldiers to join the fight.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters Hackett's words were an "unacceptable" attempt to influence the sovereignty of other countries.

The Vatican said the pope told Putin that it was essential to resolve the "grave humanitarian situation" in Ukraine, allow aid into conflict areas, and work for "progressive detente in the region".

Francis warmed up a bit during a picture-taking and gift exchange session after their private talks, speaking to Putin within earshot of reporters of the need for a "peace that overcomes all wars" and "solidarity among peoples".

Putin met the pope after holding talks with Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi in Milan where the Italian leader showed little sign of breaking ranks over European Union sanctions on Russia in response to Moscow's role in Ukraine.

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Re: Habemus Papam! Pope Francis l

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:55 pm

"Huey Long once said, “Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.” I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security."
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