Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 82_28 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:49 pm

FourthBase » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:33 pm wrote:Also, I am no longer of the opinion that the CIA is an ideological monolith. To me, it's not enough anymore to know that Fuller is CIA. Which CIA, what kind of spook. I don't think the only bad guys in the world are right wingers, Christians, capitalists, Americans, Westerners, etc.

Frankly, I don't belong on this board anymore. The paranoia here is limited to one particular set of preconceived villains and motives whereas anti-democratic evil scheming knows no bounds. I'll keep contributing to this thread, but otherwise, consider me retired.


I don't think so either. You sure do "belong" on this board if you are willing to contribute to other topics other than this one. Just have at it! But I am sure we will put your jersey in the rafters should you retire.

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:19 pm

82_28 » 13 Jun 2015 15:38 wrote:Nah. Fuck all that shit. Hate is hate. Manipulation is manipulation. It only appears to come in different and assorted flavors. It's all the same and the good among us say don't even do it in the first place. Believe me, I am a huge friendly prankster and always have been and I think I've hurt only one person with a prank because I was young and stupid and kicked out her leg from under her. I still feel fucking awful about that and always will.


Nope, manipulation does come in different, assorted flavors. Which ought to unnerve you even more. The debunker trope is that people cling to conspiracy theories because it's comforting, which is obviously bullshit, because none of this is comforting. What isn't bullshit, however, is that people cling to one brand of conspiracy theory because contemplating an overlapping multiplex of competing conspiracies is even more uncomfortable.

But "islamism" is hardly to blame.


Case in point. Why not blame All of the Above?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:33 am

Not sure if Frontpage links are forbidden here as "fascist", but it's actually a Toronto Globe and Mail article. (By a conservative...is that allowed?) Interesting look at how Fuller appears to someone standing far to the right of RI, but not on the far right, per se. Date of publication for the review is interesting, too, in a coincidental way.

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArt ... RTID=18691

How Dangerous are the Islamists?
By: Stephen Schwartz
Toronto Globe and Mail | Tuesday, April 15, 2003


The Crisis of Islam:
Holy War and Unholy Terror
By Bernard Lewis

The Future of Political Islam
By Graham E. Fuller
REVIEWED BY STEPHEN SCHWARTZ

These two volumes exemplify the main trends in serious analysis of the present turmoil in the Islamic world and in its relations with the West. Neither shares the Islamophobic prejudices of Oriana Fallaci and similar popular writers; that is, neither seeks to frighten the Western public. But there the similarity ends, for the authors, Graham Fuller and Bernard Lewis, stand at opposite poles in their approach to extremism in the Muslim world.

Fuller, a former high official of the CIA, has produced something resembling a college student's tour book of Islamist crisis zones - superficial, chatty and often inaccurate. Lewis, the dean of Islamic studies in the West, has added to his distinguished body of work a thoughtful study of contemporary Islam faced with immense historical challenges. Fuller, although given to pompous generalizations, seldom includes the sharp detail or citation of original sources for which Lewis is best known, and from which Lewis seldom strays here.

The most striking difference, however, is that Fuller has written an apologia for Islamic extremism, while Lewis offers an explication. Fuller is also possessed of a corrosive hatred of American power, and of the state of Israel, that reveals itself repeatedly. (Lewis is Jewish and a defender of the U.S. and Israel.) This lamentable aspect of Fuller's work is aggravated by what can only be described as deliberate intellectual deception.

Fuller begins his analysis of Islamic ideologies from a correct standpoint. He recognizes that most Western journalists and experts have proven incapable of really understanding the distinctions in Islamic political thought, and that many simply lump together all Islam, all Islamist politics and ideologies. But rather than analyze the differences so as to make them comprehensible, Fuller uses them to project a flawed paradigm that reinforces the false picture of a monolithic Islam. For him, "political Islam" is a single category, comprising "organizations across a broad range, both violent and peaceful, at work in Egypt, Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Yemen, Indonesia, Pakistan, Kuwait, and Palestine."

This is grossly misleading. In this book, the diversity of Islamic thought serves to mask, rather than to reveal, the fragility of extremism; that is, Fuller uses the development of legitimate Islamic politics in some countries to divert attention from the use of Islam for political ends by tyrants and terrorists in others. But the gap between an Islamo-democratic politics, comparable to Christian Democracy in Europe and Latin America, and the Islamo-fascism fostered in Algeria, Egypt or Afghanistan, is the essence of the political crisis of the Islamic global community, or umma.

In Fuller's accounting, intra-Islamist differences serve to develop a false presentiment: that the growth of mainstream, traditional, moderate and democratic Islamism - as represented by, for example, the new AK party in Turkey - should prove that Islamism worldwide is fundamentally benign. For him, concerns about Wahhabism, the extremist dispensation backed by Saudi Arabia, and other forms of Islamo-fascism, are mistaken.

Indeed, Wahhabism, the foundation of Islamic extremism and terrorism for the past 250 years, gets almost no attention in this book. Fuller argues as if the Saudi kingdom - which bars women from driving and treats non-Wahhabi Muslims and the other faiths as enemies and pays for fundamentalist and terrorist organizations from Morocco to Malaysia - were a minor factor, rather than the quintessence of the political manipulation of Islam. For him, "Islamism in Power" is typified by Iran, Sudan and Afghanistan - a gambit that gives away his devotion to headline-driven "analysis."

To group these states as if they were characteristic of Islamist political thought is legitimate if one discusses the profound differences between them, because the only thing these governments have in common is that they have captured excessive attention in Western media. But Fuller uses them to suggest that they are merely variants within his unitary conception of "political Islam," which they are not. A much more telling set of comparisons might involve Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Iraq.

But Fuller wishes to exempt Saudi Arabia from identification as extremist, has no apparent understanding of the peculiar nature of Qatari governance and has little to say about Iraq under Saddam Hussein, who has given his "secular" party-state a religious covering, as in the inscription of Allahu Akbar (the Islamic slogan "God is Great!") on the national flag. Fuller's bizarre classification of Islamist regimes leads him to exclude Saudi Arabia, founded in the 1920s, from such consideration, and to describe Iran as the first such state. This is, simply, nonsense.

Fuller frequently engages in propagandistic allegations that, if not lies, qualify as half-truths. He defines Hamas, the Saudi-backed Wahhabi terrorist organization that targets civilians in suicide bombings in Israel, as "engaged in a national liberation struggle against foreign non-Muslim occupation, in which case violence is widely perceived by all Muslims to be justified." But how do "wide perceptions" come to include "all Muslims"? And who is Fuller to make such a claim?

Many Muslims repudiate Hamas and its tactics, and many more reject the argument that violence is the only legitimate response to "foreign non-Muslim occupation." Millions of Indian Muslims live under a "foreign non-Muslim occupation," but have not engaged in violent resistance to it; so do millions of Russian Muslims, outside Chechnya.

But Fuller's addiction to such questionable assertions is not limited to the obvious sore point of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. In one of his few references to the international expansion of Wahhabism, he refers to "Wahhabi-like radical Islamist groups, not all of which are violent." It would be extremely enlightening to be informed what Wahhabi groups are not violent; I know of none. But his myopia about Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia also leads him to ignore the Wahhabi-Saudi link to al-Qaeda and thus to Sept. 11. Furthermore, Fuller describes the Pakistani jihadist movement Jama'at-i Islami as "mainstream" and non-violent, wilfully ignoring its recruitment of fighters to defend the Taliban regime, its involvement in terrorism in Kashmir, its alignment with al-Qaeda and its support of the mass murder of minority Shia Muslims in Pakistan.

Fuller's views of Islamic culture are shaded by his acceptance of Wahhabi rhetoric, leading him to regurgitate clichés by which Islamic spirituality, or Sufism, is labeled a "folk" practice, said to involve "saint worship." Neither descriptive is accurate. Sufism represents a refined and even elite phenomenon in many Islamic countries; it is denounced in some societies as a manifestation of popular ignorance, and elsewhere as a form of snobbery. But Sufis worship only God; to confuse their honouring of saints with "worship" is Wahhabi propaganda.

When dealing with relations between the United States, whose government he once served, and the Islamic world, Fuller abandons all pretense of objectivity. According to him, the atrocities of Sept. 11 "might serve as a `wake-up call' to the United States to reconsider its disastrous policies in the Middle East." Although Fuller describes this as an opinion held by "many" Muslims, he makes it his own, even though it is expressed in the U.S. only by the most marginal Islamic extremists, ultra-leftists and neo-fascists.

Fuller goes on to defend Muslims who, according to him, "denounced U.S. arrogance at treating the deaths in New York as some unique crime when thousands of Muslims themselves have been dying unnoticed under constant military attack in Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, and Kashmir." This sentence contains a breathtaking number of untruths: Few Muslims aside from extremists took this position and, however many Muslims may have died in Palestine or Chechnya, neither their suffering nor that in Bosnia-Herzegovina has gone "unnoticed." The Palestinian intifada has repeatedly occupied centre stage in global media, and Russian atrocities in Chechnya are continually denounced.

Bernard Lewis's contribution is rather elementary, but represents a welcome alternative to Fuller's survey. His outlook is a powerfully humanistic one that begins with an emphasis on the nature of Christendom and Islam as "sister civilizations," an insight of a kind largely absent from Fuller's work. Almost from the beginning, Lewis establishes the disparities that escape Fuller, writing: "There are many types of Islamic fundamentalism in different countries and even sometimes within a single country. Some are state-sponsored - promulgated, used and promoted by one or other Muslim government for its own purposes; some are genuine popular movements from below."

Among the regimes backing such movements, Lewis identifies "notably the Saudis." He correctly identifies the Iranian Islamic Republic as the first exercise in Islamist rule by a popular movement, but not the first Islamist regime.

He also differs dramatically from Fuller, who uses Islamic radicalism as a stick to beat the U.S. and Israel, by rejecting the two main misconceptions about Islam now common in the West. He argues equally against the phobic claim that Islam has supplanted Communism as a mortal threat to the West, and in opposition to the politically correct argument that all Muslims, including extremists, "are basically decent, peace-loving, pious people, some of whom have been driven beyond endurance by all the dreadful things that we of the West have done to them." The latter, of course, reproduces much of Fuller's discourse.

Lewis declares "both views contain elements of truth; both are dangerously wrong." Islam, he avers, is not fundamentally anti-Western; many Muslims seek a fruitful relationship with the West. But, as Lewis says, an important minority of Muslims hate the West, for reasons quite other than those of simple oppression. Perhaps most importantly, Lewis distinguishes between two groups that have taken their distance from open extremism: Muslims who wish to join the West in seeking freedom and prosperity, and others who accept "some temporary accommodation in order better to prepare for the final struggle" against the West. He argues that we would be wise not to confuse these two trends; such nuances are absent in many other commentaries, including that of Fuller.

Lewis continues with a careful and useful review of Islamic history, culminating in the reverses suffered by the Ottoman empire at the end of the 17th century, which are generally recognized as the beginning of the "crisis of Islam" extending to the present. He offers a summary examination of the impact on the umma of Western technological advances, European imperialism, the emergence of Communism and Nazism, the foundation of Israel, and the Iranian revolution. He also discusses the unfortunate propensity of the U.S. to support corrupt and tyrannical rule over Muslims, and to betray such promises as those made to the Iraqi masses, who were encouraged to rebel against Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War of 1991, but then abandoned to their fate.

Lewis includes a concise chapter on the role of the Saudi state and Wahhabism in fostering Islamic extremism around the world, based on oil income. His book ends without a simplistic resolution, indicating only that the crisis of Islam has brought forth a dangerous extremism that must be defeated. It is obvious, I think, which of these volumes is more honest, and more useful in understanding the challenge facing the West: Bernard Lewis is to be congratulated for continuing, after many decades, his efforts to advance comprehension and courage.

Stephen Schwartz, an author and journalist, is author of The Two Faces of Islam: The House of Sa'ud from Tradition to Terror. A vociferous critic of Wahhabism, Schwartz is a frequent contributor to National Review, The Weekly Standard, and other publications.


So, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are some counterintuitive things there, right? A conservative critic of Saudi Arabia but nuanced differentiator of Islam in general calling Fuller an apologist for Islamic extremism and a hater of America and Israel? Huh?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:46 am

82_28 » 13 Jun 2015 15:49 wrote:
FourthBase » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:33 pm wrote:Also, I am no longer of the opinion that the CIA is an ideological monolith. To me, it's not enough anymore to know that Fuller is CIA. Which CIA, what kind of spook. I don't think the only bad guys in the world are right wingers, Christians, capitalists, Americans, Westerners, etc.

Frankly, I don't belong on this board anymore. The paranoia here is limited to one particular set of preconceived villains and motives whereas anti-democratic evil scheming knows no bounds. I'll keep contributing to this thread, but otherwise, consider me retired.


I don't think so either. You sure do "belong" on this board if you are willing to contribute to other topics other than this one. Just have at it! But I am sure we will put your jersey in the rafters should you retire.

Image

Just chill, chief.


You know what...you might be right.
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15th April, 2013

Postby IanEye » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:13 pm



reviewed - it fought
as if someone were watching over it
before it had sooner been denied


renewed - it seemed
as if it had a cause to live for
destroyed - it was later based on fact


providing - deciding
it was soon there
squared to it - faced to it
it was not there



.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Harvey » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: FourthBase above.

I was speaking to an eighty eight year old Polish lady earlier today. I've met her before a few times though she rarely remembers me. She told me a little more of her story, how her mother and herself were deported to Russia when she was fourteen. "Men with machine guns came and told us we had half an hour to pack our belongings."

After a while they washed up in Iran where she was educated in a school not far from Tehran, how they were welcomed and treated like guests. Later she made her way to England where she still resides, as an outcast if anything. I can't imagine the things she's seen, what she knows, but her clear and expressive eyes are still magnificent. Her experience of Iran was of a civilised and progressive culture, gracious to foreigners and refugees. Global politics sure fucks everything it touches.

*Edited for spelling.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:29 am

I still can't believe it...Graham Fuller is literally Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's uncle's ex-father-in-law. (Is there a way to describe that familial relationship in a singular term? Ex-great-uncle-in-law? Or would that only apply to a great-aunt's ex-husband?) Browsing articles from the 2000's about Islamism and terrorism, it seems like half of them feature a go-to Fuller quote. Every time I see him so quoted, I imagine an ellipsis at the end of his last sentence followed by a clairvoyant disclaimer, "...oh, and by the way, my ex-son-in-law's nephews are going to be huge terrorists not too long from now." In terms of fictive kinship, they could potentially be as close as Fuller's...grandchildren, yeah? If Tsarni were Fuller's fictive son and if Tamerlan & Dzhokhar were Tsarni's fictive sons?

Hey, and what ever happened to Tsarni's "son"? His adopted son or whatever who was living with the Tsarnaevs? Of all the loose ends and strange friends in the last two years pulled and probed, has that one been followed up on? Russ Baker ever delve into that one?

EDIT: Nope, still almost nothing on Husein Tsarni, Ruslan's literal nephew and figurative son who literally lived with the Tsarnaevs for several years. WTF?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 82_28 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:59 am

Also, not being a dick at all 4B. But look at this photo of Ray Bourque's jersey being hung from the rafters in Denver and not Boston.

Image

Neither here nor there and really no point. But they actually moved his Boston ass from there to Denver so that it would be assured he would win the Stanley Cup before his retirement. That's how powerful the AVs were back then.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:01 am

82_28 » 19 Jun 2015 00:59 wrote:Also, not being a dick at all 4B. But look at this photo of Ray Bourque's jersey being hung from the rafters in Denver and not Boston.

Image

Neither here nor there and really no point. But they actually moved his Boston ass from there to Denver so that it would be assured he would win the Stanley Cup before his retirement. That's how powerful the AVs were back then.


Haha, yeah, "Not to be a dick, but remember the nadir of being a Boston sports fan when your city felt like such a pathetic loser you guys resorted to throwing a parade for a championship that a great Boston player had to win with another city?" Of course you're being a dick, lol. Definitely neither here nor there. Is there some esoteric analogy I'm missing? Or are you just drinking haterade cocktails tonight to ease a bout of butthurt?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:10 am

Still seems like the only reporting on Husein Tsarni is the Politico article from two years ago. Husein Tsarni left Cambridge in 2009. Moves to Russia in 2011 after his long lost father magically turns up...

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/t ... Page3.html

Some surprising news arrived from Russia a short time later, Ruslan Tsarni said: Husein’s birth father had surfaced, 15 years after disappearing and being officially declared lost by the authorities. Husein, now an adult, decided to go back to Russia and shipped out about two years ago.


That's still pretty goddamned weird.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 82_28 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:33 am

No. I just had rafters on the mind. Definitely not being a dick but possibly a smartass. :clown
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:01 pm

Interesting to compare and contrast the reactions to the Charleston shooting versus the Marathon bombing.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Jerky » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:12 pm

Please elaborate, FourthBase.

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:11 pm

Glad to. These are just impressions, not necessarily referring just to reactions here. It's a general point about our polarized cultures. Polarization that can even take place within the same individual. (Or is that just called hypocrisy?) Here goes...

Terrorist kills people.

One set of reactions: Terrorist represents the threat of a much larger covert network of likeminded belligerents, a shared hateful ideology. Terrorist act epitomizes hundreds of years of history of an entire nation/religion/culture. Extremist statements from cultural/political leaders blamed for resonating with or even inspiring act. Social exposure to vile ideas blamed for radicalizing, family and friends blamed for ignoring/enabling. Constitutional rights scrutinized as obselete, more state control encouraged. Victims unconditionally mourned, not doubted as actors. False flag scenario not entertained. Culprit's guilt not questioned with the infinite skepticism of a defense attorney. Act claimed to be declaration of war.

Another set of reactions: The opposite, more or less.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby slomo » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:44 pm

It's really much much simpler. If you kill white persons you are a "terrorist". If you kill only (or mostly) non-white persons, then you are "mentally ill" (if you aren't an "American hero").
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