Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Derek » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:11 pm

One thing to consider I guess is that back in the late forties and fifties, with the Collective Shadow of Nazism being the largest demon-object on the historical screen, the idea that the OSS/CIA might be part of the same pathology - an idea which we take for granted today - was probably pretty much unthinkable. Not to be making apologies for Jung, but trying to reconcile his obvious intelligence and seeming sensitivity and insight with what looks to us now as a seriously compromising career decision (and choice of smoking buddies).

And face it, such a choice is one that most of us never get to find out if we'd make it or not.


Hey Jake-Aeolus-Jason,

You'll get a better sense for how the friendship came about if you read Mary Bancroft's book, Autobiography of a Spy. Dulles was allegedly charming, as so many sociopaths tend to be on a superficial level, and he was well-known for his wide-ranging intellect and interesting (often filthy rich) social connections. He might have been the designated prom king in Wild Bill Donovan's "Oh So Social" club, but Jung wasn't taken in by all the cloak-and-dagger glamour—he went into the acquaintanceship with his eyes wide open. I don't think any less of him for doing so. Dulles evinced a deep respect for Jung's psychological insights and they were both committed to ending the war in Europe, so why not, right? Almost anyone else probably would have done the same. And Jung had no way of knowing, of course, what Dulles would get up to after the war, when his evil scheming for world domination really kicked into high gear.

By the way, your book, The Lucid View, was an inspiration to me while I was writing my first book in the Crash Gordon series, Crash Gordon and the Mysteries of Kingsburg. So thanks for that. I really like the way your mind works.

Here's some more on Dulles from Crash Gordon and the Revelations from Big Sur, for those who want to go a bit deeper:


NICE.

Would really like to see it in heavily referenced, non-fiction, article form.


That would take all the fun out of it, Willow. Besides, the book is already around five hundred pages. If I started adding footnotes and listing all my sources, I'd end up with something like Infinite Jest—only not as good, of course.

On my Acknowledgments page at the start of the book, I've tried to list my major sources. Someone could start there if they wanted to dig for references:

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: “The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources,” according to the famous physicist with the unkempt hair. While I share the belief that there are no wholly original thoughts, I would also maintain that hidden connections exist between the somewhat-less-than-original thoughts of others that can be made explicit, resulting in new ways of thinking about old memes. This book, in part, is an attempt in that direction, synthesizing thoughts from many unflinching chroniclers of deep politics and high weirdness who’ve shared their findings in books and on the Internet. Those due a special note of thanks include: Robert Monroe, Kyle Griffith, Charles Fort, Jeffrey Kripal, Whitley Strieber, John Keel, Jacques Vallee, Stan Gooch, Philip Imbrogno, Nick Redfern, Jim Hougan, John Loftus, Mary Bancroft, Deirdre Bair, Leon Davidson, Philip Coppens, Martin Cannon, John B. Alexander, Abbie and Jack Hoffman, Colin Wilson, Jonathan Zap, Rudy Rucker, Lydia Salant, Daniele Ganser, Richard Cottrell, and my old friend, Christopher Moore, among many others. My admiration for Elvira, John Carpenter, Terry Southern, and Big Stan Kubrick will be apparent in the chapter titled “At the Movies of Madness.” I’ve also been inspired by countless documents liberated by the Freedom of Information Act—despite the U.S. government doing its bureaucratic best to nullify those disclosures and prosecute courageous whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg, Julian Assange, Bradley Manning, Michael Hastings, and Edward Snowden.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby guruilla » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:04 am

Derek » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:11 pm wrote:Hey Jake-Aeolus-Jason,

You'll get a better sense for how the friendship came about if you read Mary Bancroft's book, Autobiography of a Spy. Dulles was allegedly charming, as so many sociopaths tend to be on a superficial level, and he was well-known for his wide-ranging intellect and interesting (often filthy rich) social connections. He might have been the designated prom king in Wild Bill Donovan's "Oh So Social" club, but Jung wasn't taken in by all the cloak-and-dagger glamour—he went into the acquaintanceship with his eyes wide open. I don't think any less of him for doing so. Dulles evinced a deep respect for Jung's psychological insights and they were both committed to ending the war in Europe, so why not, right? Almost anyone else probably would have done the same. And Jung had no way of knowing, of course, what Dulles would get up to after the war, when his evil scheming for world domination really kicked into high gear.

By the way, your book, The Lucid View, was an inspiration to me while I was writing my first book in the Crash Gordon series, Crash Gordon and the Mysteries of Kingsburg. So thanks for that. I really like the way your mind works.

Thanks Derek, & you're welcome. Anything in particular that inspired you? Funny coz just this w/e I was talking to Doug Lain (Diet Soap) about the difference between popularity and influence and how the latter counts for much more in the long run.

Glad to hear your thoughts on Jung. I guess the question I have, for myself and anyone else who has any ideas about it, is - was Jung influenced by Dulles and whatever cloak & saucer games he was privy to back in the early days of MK-ULTRA, when he wrote about flying saucers in 1959? I'm not sure if it's a practical or purely rhetorical question, but I feel obliged to ask it.

I noticed you included Whitley in your acknowledgments. I'm just about to post chap 10 of "Prisoner of Infinity," about WS's own, rather telling (?), proximity to the (possible) intell nexus of London, 1968. Here's a snippet: http://auticulture.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... ssey-1968/
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Joao » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:43 am

Derek wrote:they were both committed to ending the war in Europe

Considering AWD's central place among the post-war demonic pantheon (especially Paperclip), don't you think Sunrise-Crossword deserves much more extreme skepticism and scrutiny? I'm not convinced he was committed to anything but getting war criminals out safely and maybe minimizing the unnecessary squandering of additional capital. I guess that's the MIC version of peace. (I realize you've established your anti-Dulles bona fides pretty clearly, so please excuse me if I'm not conveying the right tone.) I'm blown away that there's seemingly so little material on Sunrise-Crossword, aside from a (rather enjoyable) old Soviet TV miniseries.

I agree with and bolster the earlier sentiments that the ill-begotten linkage between psychiatry and covert programs should cast a very dark shadow on any relationship between Jung and Dulles. Jung may have been brilliant in his way, but I don't think that means he was necessarily committed to universal liberté, égalité, and fraternité.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby slimmouse » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:52 am

I guess the big question here is whether Jungs thinking with regards to his relatively uniqure approach to psychology is strictly aside from any institutionally hierarchical leanings that appear evident from first glances at a relationship with the likes of Allen Dulles.

The kind of people that Dulles is fronting for will use all methods at their disposal, including the very neccesary manipulation of any progressive thinking stemming from the minds of us, their minions..
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby 0_0 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:03 am

I just want to repeat that i think Carl Jung was an idiot. Reading Schopenhauer i feel like i'm sitting in a brightly lit clean room with Buddah and Jesus, reading Jung i feel like i'm in a dimly lit filthy cave with a couple of trolls. Also Schopenhauer had no ties to anyone in the cia, fbi, nsa, oss, ss, nsdap or ties to anyone at all pretty much. Ok, Hitler was a fan allegedly, but you can't blame Schopenhauer for that. For RI-minded people i recommend the following essays:

- "On the Will in Nature", chapter "Animal Magnetism and Magic"

- "Parerga and Paralipomena" volume one, essays "Transcendent Speculation on the Apparent Deliberateness in the Fate of the Individual" and "Essay on Spirit Seeing and everything connected therewith"

:thumbsup
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Derek » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:53 am

I guess the big question here is whether Jung's thinking with regards to his relatively unique approach to psychology is strictly aside from any institutionally hierarchical leanings that appear evident from first glances at a relationship with the likes of Allen Dulles.


Slimmouse, Joao, et al,

That's why I spent the day at Princeton going through the Allen W. Dulles Papers... I wanted to know if Dulles and Jung had ever discussed "Brain Warfare," UFOs, or possible strategies for manipulating the collective unconscious with archetypal imagery. It would have seemed quite natural, considering their mutual interest in those topics. But I didn't find anything like that. Either they never corresponded about those things, or the intelligence community has chosen not to declassify the documents—even fifty years after Jung's death. Sometimes biographical research hits a dead end and the only option left amounts to remote viewing and rigorous intuition. All I can tell you for sure is that Jung and Dulles were friends while Dulles was stationed in Bern, where they spoke together quite often—on the phone and in person—and Dulles later defended Jung in public against baseless accusations that Jung had been a covert Nazi.

(Future generations of biographers with an all-access NSA pass won't have this problem, obviously... especially if their subjects are in the MAIN CORE database.)

And 0_0,

For what it's worth, I related to Schopenhauer's pessimystic ideas quite strongly when I was young, underemployed, and living near the beach in Big Sur while I tried to figure out what I was going to do with the rest of my life. He was helpful and I'm grateful to old Schop for that. However, I've found Jung to be much more useful to me as a middle-aged commercial artist, writer/journalist, and father. They both have something to teach. But in my admittedly subjective experience, Schopenhauer justified my inclinations toward clinical depression, whereas Jungian analysis actually helped me overcome that depression. That's a pretty big difference, in terms of outcomes.

Someday, in the future, you might want to give Jung a second look.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Joao » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:15 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Have been forwarded the following by a fellow traveller:

http://citation.allacademic.com//meta/p ... 0188-1.php

I have contacted the author (I think!) to request a PDF or DOC copy so I can add the text to this thread without retyping her paper.

Thank you for bringing this fascinating work to our attention, but I believe the author is dead:
The New York Times wrote:CAVIN--Susan E. Ph.D. Died on March 20, 2010 at 5:02pm. Pioneer activist, sociologist, teacher, coach, spouse and mother. Dr. Cavin died peacefully at her home in Brooklyn attended by her spouse, Laura Zeidenstein.

However, the paper in question and some other extremely interesting pieces by Susan Cavin can be found by searching the annual program archives of the American Sociological Association. I've posted them to Scribd in order to make it easier for anyone who's interested. Here's the piece currently under discussion, "OSS & the Frankfurt School: Recycling the 'Damaged Lives of Cultural Outsiders'".

The section on Jung and Dulles isn't particularly revealing, except perhaps to add weight to 0_0's charge of idiocy. I've read Jung pretty extensively but it was so long ago that I'd forgotten just how he full of pseudo-profound mumbo-jumbo he could be:
Jung told Knickerbocker over the radio that Hitler “has a tremendous mother complex... The unconscious of a man is always represented by a woman; that of a woman always by a man.” Jung later elaborated on Hitler’s anima-possession by his female shadow: “...in Germany Hitler has an uncanny power of being sensitive to that collective unconscious. It is as if he knows what the nation is really feeling at any given time.... One form under which the unconscious appears to a man is that of a female figure.... Hitler has never gained a healthy relationship to this female figure, which I call the anima. The result is that he is possessed by it. Instead of being truly creative he is consequently destructive.”

Maybe it was more groundbreaking in the 40s. Anyway, the whole paper really only seems to tease and lay the groundwork for demonstrating some truly nefarious connection between European psychologists/sociologists and CIA fuckery. All the connections are there, but no smoking gun. It reads like Cavin was planning to turn the subject into a book, and it's quite a disappointment that she's not around anymore to complete the project. Her final paragraph is packed with some truly excellent questions, which I've taken the liberty of transforming into bullet points:

At the heart of this study is the basic question: how was social science used as espionage in World War II? This question inevitably raises a number of related questions of particular interest to World War II buffs, historians, sociologists, psychoanalysts, and anthropologists, including:

  • What is the relationship of academia to espionage?
  • What social science classics can be traced back to OSS/OWI warwork?
  • How can classic European and American social science be separated from World War II military intelligence?
  • Did academics go beyond bookworming for OSS?
  • What roles did social scientists play in the intelligence reports that lead to the decision to deploy the atom bomb?
  • What is the relationship between science, communications technology and espionage?
  • Which psychologists and sociologists were used by OSS to develop character studies of foreign leaders and to analyze Hitler talk radio and the lure of fascism for the German masses?
  • Why did OSS recruit so many upper class men and women?
  • Finally, what did WWII sociologists of radio war learn that is applied to television and Internet war today?
For the scholarly audience, the book provides a valuable history of the origin of university affiliation with U.S. intelligence; for social theorists, a reexamination of classic social science theories in new light; for social scientists, a social history of American anthropology and sociology at Columbia University. For the psychoanalytic community, this is a new discussion of the history of psychology’s collusion with military intelligence.

The breadcrumbs are in Cavin's paper (including a very decent bibliography); hopefully someone who can do this subject justice will continue her work. (Any takers?)

As a rather lengthy aside, allow me to post abstracts and links for three additional, related papers of hers which I think this anyone who's made it this far will also find worthwhile:

Military Uses of Social Scientists in POW Camps during World War I & World War II
The use of psychologists by the U.S. military at the Guantanamo POW camp is not as new to military history as journalistic media reports suggest. There is a straight historical line that can be traced from Guantanamo back to WWII. The use of social scientists by the military even dates back to WWI, when Carl Jung was Commandant of a British POW camp in Switzerland. In WWII, the U.S. military used teams of anthropologists and sociologists in Japanese relocation centers in the Southwest. Anthropologists Ruth Benedict and Alexander Leighton were involved in studying Japanese POWs for the Office of War Information. Erik Homburger Erikson studied German POWs at POW camps in North America for COI/OSS.

War Propaganda: From WWII Radio to Internet Terrorism & Video War Games
Newspapers were to WWI what radio was to WWII, what TV was to Vietnam, and internet video and digital photographs are to the Iraqi War. In WWII, fascist agitators mixed Freud’s work on the unconscious with radio propaganda, which was analyzed by Adorno, Ernst Kris, Hans Speier, and Ernst Simmel for military intelligence (OSS/OWI). Some WWII radio heckler techniques have been recycled into US neo-con talk radio/TV shows since 9/11. Today, shaky cam internet beheadings and terrorist VCRs battle americasarmy.com (video war games) for the hearts and minds of internet-video addicted young males.

Adorno. Lazarsfeld & The Princeton Radio Project, 1938-1941
Theodor Adorno was hired by Paul Lazarsfeld as the Musical Director of the Princeton Radio Project, 1938-1941. It was out of the Princeton Radio Project that network television eventually grew. Adorno’s view of how “advertising turns to terror” did not fit in with Lazarsfeld’s Princeton Radio Project, which became the Columbia University’s Bureau of Applied Social Research. Adorno’s analysis of American radio as a means of social control during WWII still has relevance today for the media of television, particularly his concepts of “standardization” and “pseudo-individuality.”

Hat tip to WR for turning me onto Cavin, and to Derek for taking any disagreement about Jung in stride. Tone is always tough on the internet and any difference of opinion is still meant respectfully and amiably.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby 0_0 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:12 am

Yeah, i''m sorry for being offtopic and so blunt in my judgement but exactly, pseudoprofound mumbojumbo. I have only read his book about flying saucers and his (auto)biography i'll admit. The bioghraphy was planned to be written by one of his female students or soemthing, who had a hard time getting Jung to talk because he wasnt intrested etc, then when she finally got him talking he decided a biography would be a good idea after all and he would write it himself. Poor woman only got to add some very polite footnotes. How infuriating is that? That's one thing, straightaway, that irritated the hell out of me at least. Then, i'm certainly open to the possibility of precognitive dreams and such, but with Jung everything single thing he did was accompanied by a dream exactly foretelling the event etc. That's fine if you're some kind of witchdoctor shaman but cloaked in the respectability of serious groundbreaking very important science it gives me a migraine headache. And that's the biggest problem in my opnion with his work, there's no clear explanation of where he gets his ideas from and everyhting seems to be possible, for example dogmatic pronounciations about the end of aquarius and the beginning of a new aeon in which everything will be different etc. His only argument seems to be: i'm an important doctor with lots of rich patients, i wear glasses and smoke a pipe, trust me on this. Whereas Schopenhauer clearly distinguishes between what can be explained and what cannot be explained, explains the former and respectfully leaves the latter for what it is, wether you want to call it God, the Unconscious, the Will to live or Ding an sich or whatever. And this wether you are clinically depressed or not! Checked the registry in Jungs autobiography btw, no mention of Dulles or even Hitler.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Derek » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:22 am

For those of you who have a Kindle and want to learn a bit more about the loopy side of Allen Dulles and his friendship with Carl Jung, Crash Gordon and the Revelations from Big Sur is available as a free eBook on Amazon tonight and tomorrow. Currently, it's #1 in both Free Psychological Fiction and Free Occult Books, which makes a certain amount of sense, given the topics I delve into. Melinda the Bibliophile put it this way (and here I kind of blush, because egomania doesn't come naturally to me...):

"High Entertainment + High Weirdness = Fabulous Novel. Crash Gordon Rocked My World."

Just to keep things in perspective, SurfCityGal said: "A little too gritty for me. Also I thought this was about Big Sur but opens somewhere in Russia. Too graphic for me."

(Yeah, about that.... One of my editor friends suggested that I rearrange things a bit and open the book with the Moscow chapter titled Stalin Says. I pointed out to him that I might lose a few readers that way, since I deployed the term 'fake blowjob' on the very first page of that chapter. My editor friend shot back: "Well, honestly, someone who can't get past that term would likely not be able to survive the rest of the book. ;)" So just... you know... be forewarned.)

Go ahead and get yourself a copy here, if you care to: http://www.amazon.com/Crash-Gordon-Reve ... B00IFV9VL0

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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Zombie Glenn Beck » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:42 am

Thanks for the heads up, just downloaded it.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Derek » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:56 am

I would absolutely LOVE to have a review on Amazon from a guy calling himself Zombie Glenn Beck, if you can pull that off. And that Barracuda quote makes me grin every time I see it. How about it, Barracuda? Do you have any time available to review a free book?
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby Dioneo » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:48 am

T'anks, Derek. Look forward to reading it.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby stefano » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:57 am

Bump. Fantastic stuff, I had no idea.

On judgments of Jung - seeing him as some sort of architect of the US Deep State is a mistake, and a symptom of American solipsism. It's the same as Hugh Manatee Wins's weird obsession that Roald Dahl's books were a psyop because he joined the RAF during the war and worked for intelligence for a few years. For an Englishman or a Swiss, of course it was a good idea to fight Germany and American help would have been welcomed.

Jung's 1936 article on Wotan is here, it's pretty good.

We are always convinced that the modern world is a reasonable world, basing our opinion on economic, political, and psychological factors. But if we may forget for a moment that we are living in the year of Our Lord 1936, and, laying aside our well-meaning, all-too-human reasonableness, may burden God or the gods with the responsibility for contemporary events instead of man, we would find Wotan quite suitable as a casual hypothesis. In fact, I venture the heretical suggestion that the unfathomable depths of Wotan’s character explain more of National Socialism than all three reasonable factors put together. There is no doubt that each of these factors explains an important aspect of what is going on in Germany, but Wotan explains yet more. He is particularly enlightening in regard to a general phenomenon which is so strange to anybody not a German that it remains incomprehensible, even after the deepest reflection.

Perhaps we may sum up this general phenomenon as Ergriffenheit — a state of being seized or possessed. The term postulates not only an Ergriffener (one who is seized) but, also, an Ergreifer (one who seizes). Wotan is an Ergreifer of men, and, unless one wishes to deify Hitler – which has indeed actually happened — he is really the only explanation. It is true that Wotan shares this quality with his cousin Dionysus, but Dionysus seems to have exercised his influence mainly on women. The maenads were a species of female storm-troopers, and, according to mythical reports, were dangerous enough. Wotan confined himself to the berserkers, who found their vocation as the Blackshirts of mythical kings.


I'm also really keen to get Derek's novel. I don't like the idea of a kindle, but it would give me access to texts I wouldn't see otherwise...
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby brekin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:54 pm

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_Adolf_Hitler

Another psychoanalyst Wild Bill Donovan had in his stable was Walter Langer. Interestingly, reading the above Langer was actually collaborating with Donovan before the Hitler analysis on how psychoanalysis/ants could help the early war effort by targeting and influencing young men who were against the war effort at the time. But then Pearl Harbor came along and priorities shifted. I believe Langer even muses how such a thing was not as common (student war protests, youth peace movement, etc) back then.

The book above is definitely valuable in itself, providing so much food for thought about Hitlers psyche, but it also seems to serve the narrative purpose of backdating the prediction in the secret war time report and affirming post WWII (1972) that Hitler would kill himself, putting a case closed to those who believed he didn't or his body never found.

Sixty-four years later, the world is still in the dark about what really happened in Hitler's bunker on 30 April 1945.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... l-fragment

Also of interest is the understanding/conjecturing going on about how Hitler became who he was. Hitler definitely seems at times a unique accident of nature and history, but his appeal and rise also seems to point to the very commonality of his origins. Doing a Boys From Brazil scenario:

It eventually transpires each of the 94 targets has a son aged 13, a genetic clone of Adolf Hitler planted by Mengele. Mengele wishes to create a new Führer for the Nazi movement, and is trying to ensure that the lives of the clones follow a similar path to Hitler's. Each civil servant father is married to a woman about 23 years younger, and their killing is an attempt to mimic the death of Hitler's own father.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_ ... 28novel%29

Actually seems like overkill. Thinking out loud here on the whole "weaponizing a person", seems like it could be done with just some soft selection, identification, and then giving them opportunity and a little coaching. Doesn't it seem like the culture in general provides numerous individuals already inculcated to perform under certain conditions? I can understand the interest in creating marionettes, reading the above I got the sense though that you just need to know what you are shopping for.
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Re: Agent 488; Carl Jung and the CIA (OSS)

Postby brekin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:00 pm

brekin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:54 pm wrote:Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_Adolf_Hitler

Another psychoanalyst Wild Bill Donovan had in his stable was Walter Langer. Interestingly, reading the above Langer was actually collaborating with Donovan before the Hitler analysis on how psychoanalysis/ants could help the early war effort by targeting and influencing young men who were against the war effort at the time. But then Pearl Harbor came along and priorities shifted. I believe Langer even muses how such a thing was not as common (student war protests, youth peace movement, etc) back then.

The book above is definitely valuable in itself, providing so much food for thought about Hitlers psyche, but it also seems to serve the narrative purpose of backdating the prediction in the secret war time report and affirming post WWII (1972) that Hitler would kill himself, putting a case closed to those who believed he didn't or his body never found.

Sixty-four years later, the world is still in the dark about what really happened in Hitler's bunker on 30 April 1945.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... l-fragment

Also of interest is the understanding/conjecturing going on about how Hitler became who he was. Hitler definitely seems at times a unique accident of nature and history, but his appeal and rise also seems to point to the very commonality of his origins. Doing a Boys From Brazil scenario:

It eventually transpires each of the 94 targets has a son aged 13, a genetic clone of Adolf Hitler planted by Mengele. Mengele wishes to create a new Führer for the Nazi movement, and is trying to ensure that the lives of the clones follow a similar path to Hitler's. Each civil servant father is married to a woman about 23 years younger, and their killing is an attempt to mimic the death of Hitler's own father.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_ ... 28novel%29

Actually seems like overkill. Thinking out loud here on the whole "weaponizing a person", seems like it could be done with just some soft selection, identification, and then giving them opportunity and a little coaching. Doesn't it seem like the culture in general provides numerous individuals already inculcated to perform under certain conditions? I can understand the interest in creating marionettes, reading the above I got the sense though that you just need to know what you are shopping for.


Ha, ha, or perhaps Freud weaponized a young Hitler when his parents brought the six year old to him to help with his recurring nightmares.
Of course, the appointment didn't go through. Of course, I mean Freud with his numerous and colossal fuck ups with patients, treating a young Hitler who would go onto entrance and drag the whole of Europe and the rest of the world into the caverns of his subconscious is just too easy. I mean the great theorist of the unconscious treating the future great manipulator of the unconscious is something that is just too...easy.

Would Freud have saved Hitler and the world from his madness?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... dness.html

What would have happened if Sigmund Freud had persuaded Adolf Hitler on to his psychoanalyst's couch? Might World War II, with all its appalling loss of life, have been avoided?

This is the intriguing question posed by a play on Radio 4 called Dr Freud Will See You Now, Mr Hitler.
In calling the subject 'intriguing' I must declare an interest: I wrote this play, with my long-time collaborator Laurence Marks.

We started working on it over ten years ago, originally as a screenplay, after Laurence found an obscure little memoir called Hitler's Youth written in the Fifties by Franz Jetzinger.From this we discovered that, as a small boy, Hitler was taken to the local doctor, suffering from recurring nightmares.
Probably these were caused, at least in part, by the beatings and humiliations administered by his father Alois, a customs officer.
The doctor, (who happened to be Jewish), realised there was nothing he could prescribe which could help young Adolf. Instead he suggested that Klara Hitler take her son to Vienna, where a psychiatrist had just set up the first child psychiatric clinic in Austria.


That psychiatrist, of course, was Sigmund Freud. In fact Hitler was never taken to see Freud - presumably his father thought psychiatry was bunkum, and that a sound thrashing never did anyone any harm. But we wondered, as playwrights should: suppose, just suppose, Klara had taken her son on that train ride to Vienna?

Thus in our play young Adolf is seen by the eminent psychoanalyst, who quickly realises the child has been beaten regularly. Freud implores Klara to stop Alois mistreating the child, but in our play, as in life, she is no match for her brute of a husband, and Alois, embarrassed and humiliated, refuses to let Adolf see Freud again.
In fact - and in our drama - after his parents died, Hitler did return to Vienna when he was a teenager to study art. However, he was rejected by the Academy of Fine Arts, twice - its verdict being that although he was a competent draughtsman his figure work was poor and lacked a sense of proportion.

Rather than slink back to his smalltown home, young Hitler spent several years in Vienna, scratching a living and reading voraciously - philosophy, mythology, perhaps psychology, too.
It is during this period that in our play we imagine him buying Freud's Interpretation Of Dreams, then boldly introducing himself to the psychoanalyst, in the hope Freud can help him overcome his recurring nightmare of being whipped with his father's belt.
We knew we were taking a sizeable risk attempting this play. To deal dramatically in any way with the life of Hitler is to risk accusations of bad taste.
That we invest our imaginary Hitler-Freud exchanges with a degree of bleak comedy is to court even stronger criticism.

We were also aware that we had no special expertise in the field of psychoanalysis. We tried to compensate by closely consulting with a leading academic, and a brilliant therapist, who both gave us the confidence to speculate whether history might have been different if Hitler had come under the influence of Freud.The key question therefore was: 'Could Freud have helped Hitler?' More importantly, could he have saved Hitler from becoming the murderous monster who still fascinates us so much today?

First we had to consider what Freud would have made of a still unformed Adolf. He would, of course, have identified Hitler's key problem to be his unresolved hatred for his father.
Adolf was certainly brutally treated by Alois. His sister Paula told the biographer John Toland: "It was my brother Adolf who especially provoked my father to extreme harshness, and who got his due measure of beatings every day. He was a rather nasty little fellow and all his father's efforts to beat the impudence out of him were in vain."
Toland recorded that Alois was a drunk 'who often beat the dog until it would cringe and wet the floor'. He even beat Adolf's docile mother, Klara.

When Adolf was 11 he tried to run away from home. His father learned of his plans and locked him in an upstairs room, only for the boy to try to squeeze through a barred window. He couldn't quite make it, so he took off his clothes to try to wriggle through.
When he heard his father's footsteps, he quickly withdrew from the window and draped his nakedness with a table cloth.
This time Alois did not whip the child. Instead he burst into laughter and summoned Klara to come and see the 'toga boy'. The ridicule hurt the young Adolf Hitler more than any beating. But whatever his childhood miseries, as a psychiatric patient Hitler would have presented far more serious challenges than a simple history of child abuse.We know that as a teenager in his home town he had problems socialising, preferring to play with much younger children, organising them in war games in the woods.

He also had intense difficulty forging personal relationships, especially with women. For four years as a student in Vienna he virtually stalked a well-bred Austrian girl, Stefanie, telling his best friend August Kubizek that he would marry her; but not once did he pluck up the courage even to talk to her.
In this period of his life, Hitler was happy to accompany August Kubizek, a music student, to recitals at the homes of wealthy Viennese Jews, where he behaved impeccably. Clearly, Hitler would have had no difficulty in consorting with Dr Freud.
Indeed, in our play, we imagine he becomes almost obsessed with the bourgeois perfection of the Freud family home, even developing a crush on Freud's precocious daughter, Anna. Only 12 or 13, she might have been captivated by this brooding, self-taught young man, with his grand plans to write an opera and become a great painter.

When Anna mentions that the family is about to go to the mountains for the summer, Adolf foolishly believes he has been invited, too.
He turns up unexpectedly, to be firmly put in his place by the doctor. It is at this moment in our play that Hitler's admiration for Freud, as a benign father-substitute, turns into anger and hatred.
It is almost too ironic that the Freuds' summer house really was in the beautiful village of Berchtesgaden, where later on the Fuhrer would build his own mountain retreat, the Eagle's Nest.
Hitler storms out of Berchtesgaden and the Freuds' lives in our play until after World War I. In reality, for several years up to 1914 he slid down the social scale, selling his sketches for a few kronen apiece and living in doss houses.

When he joined the German Army at the outbreak of World War I - he refused to fight for Austria, saying he despised the racial impurity of Austria's Hapsburg Empire - he won the Iron Cross for his bravery as a runner, working alone taking despatches back and forth across the lines.
As the war ground to its dismal climax, Hitler was temporarily blinded by poison gas. He was recovering in a military hospital when a mob of mutinous German soldiers waving red Communist flags invaded the wards and declared that the Kaiser had fled, and Germany had surrendered.
Hitler was struck blind again - a hysterical psychological blindness, presumably, afflicting a man who literally couldn't bear to see his adopted homeland defeated. "I staggered and stumbled back to my ward and buried my aching head between the blankets and the pillow," he later said.

In the play, we take the liberty of bringing Freud, who was employed in the aftermath of war as an inspector of hospitals, into Hitler's ward, where he encourages Adolf to try to regain his health in order to serve his country.
Less than a year later Hitler was back in uniform, almost certainly working as a government informer spying on the activities of those of his fellow soldiers who continued to flirt with Communism.
It was during this time that Hitler joined the tiny political group that evolved inside a dozen or so years into the National Socialist government of Germany.

Although at that time Hitler didn't appear 'mad' in any obvious sense, comrades described him as 'odd' and 'peculiar'.
One soldier said Hitler was an isolated figure who spent long periods sitting alone holding his head in silence. Then suddenly he would leap up and vent a tirade, usually attacking the Jews and Marxists for undermining the war effort.
For Hitler, as for millions of his fellow countrymen, Germany's surrender was so psychologically destabilising that he preferred to convince himself that the war was lost only because a coalition of socialists and Jews sued for peace, 'stabbing in the back' an undefeated German army.

After the war, however, we have him turning up once more at Freud's apartment. This time it is because he is eager to lay his hands on Freud's new book on mass psychology.
Freud was fascinated by the way in which leaders such as Lenin and Trotsky, in revolutionary Russia, used their oratory and their influence of the media to control people yearning for simple solutions in an increasingly complex world.
It is tempting, and credible, to imagine Hitler seizing upon the book as a rabble-rouser's manual. Certainly he developed quickly into a phenomenal and mesmerising public speaker.

So the question is: In the light of Hitler's warped but profound sense of self and destiny, could Freud have 'cured' him? Our technical advisers thought Freud would have defined Hitler as a type of paranoiac. His paintings of Vienna were devoid of human life, as if he was trying to depopulate the world before filling it with his own creations.
Later, after Hitler comes to power, we have him visit the aged Freud, now dying of cancer, to taunt him with the 'triumph of my will'. The Professor has to concede that Hitler is his greatest triumph as well as his greatest failure, for a scared beaten boy was brought to him, who has become the most powerful man in the world.
Yet Freud tells the Fuhrer that the violence he perpetrates upon his innocent victims is essentially a fruitless attempt both to appease his father and overpower him.

We realised from the start that we faced a dilemma familiar to all creators of 'what if?' stories. Audiences for such tales expect novel outcomes. They want to believe, for example, that if King Charles I hadn't been beheaded, England would still be a country of cavaliers and absolute monarchs.
But to suggest Hitler's monstrousness could ever have been 'analysed away', that Freud might have diverted the adolescent Adolf from his genocidal path to become, for example, an art teacher, would be more than wildly speculative: it would feel almost obscene, an insult to the millions of victims of Hitler's war.
Besides, millions of people around the world today regularly consult a dizzying variety of therapists in the hope of obtaining psychological comfort. Most of these individuals find the process helpful, but one can visit a Freudian psychoanalyst five times a week for 20 years without ever being declared 'better'.

Laurence and I know it has become the convention in some quarters to decry the British obsession with World War II. It particularly irks today's blameless Germans that we seem to hark on about the war almost as much now as 30 years ago, when Basil Fawlty did his silly Hitler impression in front of his traumatised hotel guests.
Critics suggest that as a nation we are fascinated only because the war was the last occasion when the United Kingdom did something unarguably good and worthy and brave.

There may be some validity in the criticism; certainly the idea of a 'just war' is a dangerous one. Tony Blair's romantic notions of a 'just war', have led Britain into the carnage and confusion of Iraq today.
However, I feel it would be strange not to be fascinated, and apprehensive, at how someone like Hitler could come to power in a supposedly civilised country.
In any case, Hitler isn't a merely British pre-occupation: the mystery of his inexplicable evil draws every kind of writer; he is the subject of Norman Mailer's latest hefty novel, and I'm told there are more biographies of Hitler in print than of any other historical figure.

Laurence and I have an extra reason to be interested in the life of the Fuhrer. Like all British-born Jews, we wouldn't even have been conceived if Hitler had overcome this country's resistance.
We're all fortunate that today the idea of a Hitler invading our country and rounding up the Jews - not to mention the gypsies, homosexuals and mentally ill - seems almost as unlikely as it did to Freud and the comfortable bourgeois Jews of Vienna in the 1920s, when Hitler was just one of many irritating rabblerousers strutting around Bavaria.


• Dr Freud Will See You Now, Mr Hitler is on Radio 4 at 2.30pm today.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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