Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby KUAN » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:48 pm

.
I think you mean "may not"


Except in Russia where it's can not
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:50 pm

:P

this place makes it impossible for me

I stand by my use


I am able to in RL


he is a pro in the art of picking nits

cause that's all he's got

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Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby American Dream » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:59 am

https://oaklandsocialist.com/2016/12/18 ... utinassad/


Debating an apologist for Putin/Assad

Posted on December 18, 2016 by oaklandsocialist


Yesterday (Dec. 17), we had a chance to debate with an apologist for Putin/Assad (and Iran’s Rouhani and their client, Hezbollah) on WRFU’s World Labor Hour. (Hear it here, starting at about 60 minutes in.)

Our basic principle should be (as the IWW says), “the working class and the employing class (i.e. the capitalist class) have nothing in common.” This not only applies to the representatives of the US capitalist class, but also of the Syrian and Russian capitalist class, meaning Assad and Putin, as well as Iran’s Rouhani and the Hezbollah.

The essence of the situation is that there was a popular uprising against that representative of the World Bank, Assad, in 2011. Faced with massive repression, the uprising became militarized and was unable to find a way forward as a “people’s” political revolt. We don’t know who, exactly, is organizing against the regime right now, although as recently as March of this year there were protests throughout Syria against both Assad and the Islamic jihadists. But in another sense, it really doesn’t matter since the present strategy of Putin/Assad is mass murder.

It was interesting to hear what this apologist for them had to say in response.

Mass Murder Becomes “This Implementation”
She started off by denouncing any call for US intervention, but that is a false flag, designed to distract, as I had made perfectly clear that I was opposed to that.

Then she commented: “I have no doubt that people were killed during this implementation (meaning the Russian forces’ bombings of Aleppo and elsewhere). I think this is always going to happen during conditions of war. but it was not intentional.” All she’d have had to do was add the terms “collateral damage”, and she’d have sounded exactly like a US State Department spokesperson defending the latest drone or other outrage by US forces in Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq or elsewhere.

Image
Aleppo, Gaza and Grozny (Chechnya). Can you tell which is which? Does it matter?
These are all crimes against humanity, but the left liberals and “socialists” cover up for the crimes of Putin.
(Hint: Pictures are in chronological order from top down.)


As in Grozny (Chechnya), the reactionary Putin capitalist regime targeted the people of Aleppo, directly contrary to the false claims of the Putin/Assad apologist. It is little different from what the criminal Israeli regime did in Gaza with the backing of their US allies (including the working class “savior”, Bernie Sanders).

Eva Bartlett
She talked about the RT reporter Eva Bartlett, who’s spent a good deal of time in Syria: “She is independent. She’s boots on the ground,” she said. This is a reporter for that organ of the Putin administration, RT, who has been in Syria as a guest of the Assad regime, as I pointed out on the radio show. And given Assad’s long, long history of arrest, torture and murder of any critic of his regime, there is no way that Bartlett could have survived there had she been honestly reporting what has been and is happening.

Capitalist “Legitimacy”
Then this defender of the World Bank stooge Assad commented “The Syrian government… is legitimate, just as Russia is operating within international law.” This is the fall-back position of all the left-liberal defenders of these representatives of the capitalist class of their particular countries (Assad, Putin, etc.). That they are operating within capitalist legality. It shows that they have not the slightest connection with the working class, not in their own country nor with the global working class movement. Who cares if these regimes are doing what they and their class have made legal? Under that cover, we would have to defend what the governor of North Dakota did when he called up law enforcement from the surrounding states to attack the protesters at Standing Rock. All of that was done under the law, too.

On this basis, the US government’s war in Vietnam was perfectly okay because the US was invited in by the “legitimate” government of South Vietnam!

Defending Hindu Nationalist
Then this defender of capitalist legality defended US Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbert as being “too good to be true.” This is a member of congress who is an anti-Muslim bigot and a supporter of India’s vicious Hindu nationalist president, Modi. (Gabbert was also happy to meet and consult with Donald Trump recently shortly after Trump’s election victory.) Oh, yes… “too good to be true”.

World Working Class
This left liberal who was on the radio show is not alone. All sorts of life-long socialists, from Jeff Mackler to Richard Mellor, are also giving some measure or other of support to Assad, Putin, etc. The problem is that all they can see is US imperialism, and they have lost sight of the role of the working class as an independent force in history. Therefore they flail around looking for an alternative.

It’s true that that role is more difficult to see today than almost any time in many decades. But outside of orienting towards it, what alternative is there?

In this particular case, what can the workers’ movement do?

Build Direct Links
First of all, there are the Syrian refugees throughout the US and Western Europe. Socialists and other supporters of the workers’ movement should be trying to make links with them and through them try to establish direct links with the Syrian movement, both what remains of it in Syria as well as in the refugee communities in Turkey, etc. Through that, a discussion could be developed so that the workers’ movement can start to learn the lessons of what has happened in Syria and the lessons of the Arab Spring. Also, some forms of worker-to-worker aid could start to be developed. What form that would take is impossible to say from here at this point. But it would be completely impossible to establish such links on the basis of any support – either overt or covert – for the criminal and near-genocidal policies of Assad/Rouhani/Putin/Hezbollah.

We should add: It may be that some of the opponents of Assad have some illusions in seeking US military support. That would be almost inevitable at this point. As we stressed time and again on the radio show, socialists would have to be absolutely adamant in their opposition. Inviting in US military support of any kind would be like asking the wolf to guard the hen house against the fox.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:54 am

:P
The Game’s Afoot: Did Russia Hack the BBC’s Finale of ‘Sherlock’?
by ALEX JOHNSON

Sunday's eagerly awaited finale of the acclaimed TV series "Sherlock" leaked online before it aired — and the BBC wants to know whether Russian state TV is to blame.

Sue Vertue, producer of the limited-run modernization of the beloved detective stories that turned Benedict Cumberbatch into a worldwide star, confirmed that the episode leaked Saturday and asked anyone who'd seen it to keep its secrets before it aired Sunday night.


The British newspaper The Telegraph reported Sunday that a Russian-language version of the finale appeared online Saturday with a short announcement promoting state-run Channel One TV, which airs the show in Russia.

The newspaper quoted a spokesman as saying, "BBC Worldwide takes breaches of our stringent content security protocols very seriously and we have initiated a full investigation into how this leak has occurred."

Image: Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman in a scene from 'Sherlock'
Benedict Cumberbatch, as Sherlock Holmes, and Martin Freeman, as Dr. Watson, in an episode from season three of the BBC TV series 'Sherlock.' Robert Viglasky
The Telegraph quoted multiple analysts as saying it was possible that Russian officials deliberately leaked the final episode of the four-year-old program — one of the BBC's most popular and lucrative productions — in a fit of pique over the closing last year of British bank accounts linked to RT, Russia's English-language TV broadcaster.

The British government said it had nothing to do with the decision, but in October, a spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry promised that Russia would retaliate for the action.

The spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, said in a social media post at the time that the move "reeked of the BBC," Reuters reported.

"I wish the BBC Russian service luck," she wrote. "They will need it now, because digging stuff up can be a diverting and unpredictable business."
http://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/g ... ck-n707231
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:57 am

What is Russia's endgame in Libya?
Haftar met with Russian officials in an effort to secure military support that would prepare for his control of Libya.


byBarbara Bibbo
Rival factions wrestling for control in a divided Libya are plunging the country into further chaos, as a UN-brokered government struggles to bring stability to its people.

In a quick turn of events this week, Libyan military commander Khalifa Haftar met Russian officials in an effort to secure crucial military support that would pave the way for his control of the North African county.

Haftar visited a Russian aircraft carrier off the cost of Tobruk from where he held a video conference with Russian defence minister Sergey Shoigu. Italian State TV RAI reported that Haftar signed an agreement whereby Russia would build two military bases near Tobruk and Benghazi.

Russian State media did not mention the agreement but confirmed that Russia would get a foothold in the south of the Mediterranean. The move would also step up the foreign presence in the Eastern part of Libya, where Emirati and French air forces have been reportedly operating since March from the Al-Khadim Airport in the city of Marj, Haftar's headquarters.

General Haftar refuses to acknowledge the political authority of the UN-sponsored Presidential Council led by Fayez al-Sarraj and has engaged in a power struggle with Tripoli that has strongly weakened prospects for a unification of the country.

OPINION: In Libya, Britain's ignorance triumphed over caution

Meanwhile, on Thursday, Prime Minister Sarraj flew to Egypt, Haftar's main ally along with Russia and the UAE, in an attempt to avert a further worsening of the political stalemate, which is resulting in an unprecedented economic crisis.

However, Sarraj had to make a hasty return to Tripoli, where supporters of Khalifa Ghwell, a former prime minister in the unrecognised National Salvation Government, staged a tentative coup last October to flag up the growing discontent over Sarraj's management of the political crisis.

Ghwell's demonstrative act took place a day after Italy reopened its diplomatic mission in Libya, in a symbolic display of political support for the crippled Government of National Accord (GNA) presided over by Sarraj, whose authority has been progressively eroding when the Tobruk-based House of Representatives (HoR), under the direct influence of General Haftar, has refused twice to endorse Sarraj's proposed list of ministers.

The HoR, which under a UN deal is set to become Libya's legitimate parliament, is endorsing a different governing body in the east of the country led by Abdullah al-Thinni, thus leaving Sarraj's executive in a risky political limbo.


Inside Story - Is this the beginning of the end for ISIL in Libya?
The future of the UN-led initiative, which resulted in the Libyan Political Agreement and was signed by the Libyan factions in December 2015, now hangs in the balance. The success of the deal inevitably depends on Haftar's next moves and the extent of Russia's involvement in Libya, analysts say.

"If Haftar doesn't agree to the UN plan, there is no way out of the crisis. His role is key," said Arturo Varvelli, a Libya specialist at the Institute of International Political Studies. "The question is whether the General aims at playing a role within the GNA or at becoming Libya's new leader. I am afraid he is going for the second option. He mistakenly believes he would be able to govern the entire country, but militias in Misrata and Tripoli will never consent."

In a display of strategic sagacity, Haftar has waited for Sarraj to progressively erode his authority in Tripoli while avoiding engaging militarily with rival militias in Misrata, who support Sarraj and the GNA. Misrata forces have been occupied throughout 2016 in the war against the Islamic State in Sirte, which they liberated in December after suffering extensive casualties.

In the meantime, Haftar has consolidated his role in Cirenaica. He has successfully contained jihadists from the Revolutionary Shura Council in Benghazi and in September he occupied the oil terminals in the east of the country, after dislodging military units of the Petroleum Facilities Guard and their commander Ibrahim Jadhran, an ally of the GNA.

The seizure of the so-called Oil Crescent has been a major blow to the GNA, for which crude oil exports represent a vital source of revenues. The move has further shifted the balance of power in favour of Haftar, who all along has worked on strengthening his ties with foreign powers, above all Russia.

Libya represents an interesting opportunity for Russia's geopolitical ambitions. The Kremlin is taking advantage of the political void left by the American administration and is stretching its arm in the Mediterranean.

Arturo Varvelli, a Libya specialist at the Institute of International Political Studies
"Libya represents an interesting opportunity for Russia's geopolitical ambitions. The Kremlin is taking advantage of the political void left by the American administration and is stretching its arm in the Mediterranean," Varvelli told Al Jazeera.

In an interview with the Italian Il Corriere della Sera, Haftar said Russia granted him help for an end to the UN arms embargo on Libya and could supply him with weapons, although the Russians haven't confirmed Haftar's claims.

"We were told arms can arrive only after the end of the embargo and [President] Putin has promised to help lift it," Haftar said.

Since 2011, the UN embargo prohibits the transfer of weapons into Libya. Only the legitimate government of the National Accord can receive weapons upon the approval of a UN Security Council committee.

"It is unlikely Russia will try to lift the embargo, considering Europe's determination to maintain it in such a dangerous context," said Mattia Toaldo, senior policy fellow at the European Council for Foreign Relations. "I don't believe Moscow is seeking a direct intervention in Libya in the same way as in Syria. In the next few months the Kremlin will keep exerting its influence from the outside," Toaldo explained.

"However, until Haftar will believe he has the unconditional support of Russia, and possibly of the Trump administration, he won't have any interest in taking part in the ongoing political negotiations."

READ MORE: In Libya 'there are no winners today'

Toaldo said the UN-brokered deal is in a bad shape but still offers a viable negotiating framework. "The Government of National Accord is in a bad situation but the political project isn't dead. The deal will be reformed but won't be abandoned," he told Al Jazeera.

There is an intense activity in Egypt and Libya's neighbouring countries to find an agreement over a reform of the UN power-sharing agreement. The international community is still keen on establishing a comprehensive governing body that would include the Islamic factions and where military power would be submitted to political authority.

On the other end, General Haftar, backed by Egypt, is seeking to exclude the Islamists from the political negotiations and pursues the independence of the military power from the government.

However, a reform of the peace deal that would acknowledge heavyweights and main actors on the ground, above all Haftar and the Misrata forces, is inevitable, analysts say. Sarraj may not be necessarily part of a future picture. His incapability to manage the crisis has proven fatal and the UN may not want to salvage him against all odds.

"In 2017 we may see this political stalemate continue, while Haftar will slowly advance into the west and south of the country. In the meantime, the living conditions in the country would further deteriorate," Toaldo said.


UpFront - Crisis in Libya: Who's to blame?
The population discontent is rampant against the GNA and Sarraj's management of the economic crisis owing to the daily water and power cuts, shortage of cash and lack of basic services. Food shortages have resulted in a thriving black market, driving up the price of food by 31 percent in the first half of 2016.

The combination of inflation, devaluation of the dinar in the black market and the increased cost of basic goods and commodities has led to significantly reduced purchasing power for the Libyan people.

According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Assistance (UNOCHA) at least 2.4 million people out of a total population of 6.4 million are in urgent need of humanitarian assistance.

The UN agency said that in 2016 Libya registered the fourth consecutive year of decline in oil production, from which government revenues depend. In the first half of 2016, the country produced an average 350,000 barrels per day, almost 20 percent less than in the previous year.

Year 2016 has ended with a GDP budget deficit of more than 60 percent, while foreign reserves have been rapidly depleting, halving from US$107.6bn in 2013 to an estimated US$43bn in 2016.

"The failure of public financial administration continues with the government unable to come to an agreement on a national budget, a plan or a system to provide for the population," said a recently published UNOCHA country report.

"While funds are being allocated [including most recently the announcement from the Central Bank on the allocation of US7.8bn] from the contingency budget to the Presidential Council for energy, security, health and salaries, it is not clear how these funds will be distributed and if they will reach people in need."

Corruption is widespread, with stakeholders at multiple levels taking advantage of financial mismanagement throughout the country, the reports said.

READ MORE: The ghosts of Gaddafi

Building on the population discontent, last week, supporters of Ghwell, the former prime minister of the Salvation Government, stormed some empty ministerial buildings in the capital, Tripoli. Ghwell's attempt seems aimed to reinforce the perception of Sarraj's vulnerability as well as the volatility of the front supporting the GNA.

"The security situation in the capital remains fragile as usual," said Italian ambassador to Tripoli Giuseppe Perrone. Italy reopened its embassy on January 10 in an attempt to break the international isolation that Libyans are living in, Perrone said.

"Until security will be managed by different rival factions, the situation will not change. In this contest the ongoing effort to create a presidential guard that would serve the institutions and grant their safety is very important," the ambassador said.

Italy has promised to provide logistical and training support to Libya's coastguard and military forces to enhance border control and migrants flows. But the plan is far-fetched as long as Libya's authorities fail to exert any control over the country's territory.

Libya is the primary route for refugees and migrants from Africa and the Middle East with Italy their first destination. In 2016 some 181,000 refugees arrived on the Italian coasts, a 20 percent increase from 2015.

The embassy reopening has been harshly criticised by the Tobruk-backed government of Abdullah al-Thinni which branded it as "a military occupation".

Meanwhile General Haftar criticised Italy's presence in Misrata, where Italians set up a military hospital and invited foreign countries "to stay out of Libya's affairs".
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 13370.html
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby Elvis » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:44 pm

oaklandsocialist bloviated:

And given Assad’s long, long history of arrest, torture and murder of any critic of his regime, there is no way that Bartlett could have survived there had she been honestly reporting what has been and is happening.



This is pure BS. Good grief.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:57 pm

Elvis » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:44 pm wrote:
oaklandsocialist bloviated:

And given Assad’s long, long history of arrest, torture and murder of any critic of his regime, there is no way that Bartlett could have survived there had she been honestly reporting what has been and is happening.



This is pure BS. Good grief.


Right. It is, quite possibly, the single worst thing ever copied-and-pasted to this board. "Oakland Socialist" (sic) doesn`t even know what "false flag" means. He twice mis-spells Tulsi Gabbard`s name as "Gabbert". He never once names the person he was allegedly "debating". And of course he slanders Eva Bartlett, but very stupidly indeed. I`ve known 12-year-olds who could write better and think more clearly. It is sheer unadulerated garbage from start to finish.

No wonder American Dream thought fit to share it with us. And, no, AD will neither defend it nor retract it in his own voice, because that is not what he is here for. He is here to copy-and paste endless reams of illiterate warmongering pseudleft crap like that, and like this gem, from Snopes (also today) to this Discussion Board. He is not here to discuss anything.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby Nordic » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:17 pm

AD is here to spread terrorist Jihadist propaganda.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:20 pm

stop the personal attacks......grow up



:P

Before presidential run, Trump called Russia the 'biggest problem' and geopolitical foe of U.S.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/politics/ ... ions-2014/
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby Morty » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:35 am

Empire Files: Post-Soviet Russia, Made in the U.S.A.

Abby Martin interviews Mark Ames (27 minutes)




Published on Jan 23, 2017
The increased aggression towards Russia from US politicians and media is made more clear when taking into account the real history of the post-Soviet period. The hidden story of Boris Yeltsin’s presidency explains how deeply the US government, along with Western capitalist institutions, cheered, shaped and exploited the country after the fall of the Soviet Union, paving the way for the political system they all condemn today.

To uncover just how much the US Empire has interfered in Russia’s political evolution, Abby Martin interviews Mark Ames, an American journalist who spent a decade reporting from Yeltsin’ and Putin’s Russia and witnessed the country’s transformation from an American “colony” to it’s “number one threat.”
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby brekin » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:53 pm

Nordic wrote:AD is here to spread terrorist Jihadist propaganda.


You know talk like that gets people in trouble.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby 82_28 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:15 pm

brekin » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:53 am wrote:
Nordic wrote:AD is here to spread terrorist Jihadist propaganda.


You know talk like that gets people in trouble.


Nordic, dude. No he is not. Personally, I can judge where I might, as we all can. Again nobody should be made to "explain" themselves. We have it on a firm foundation he ain't no racist nor no fascist. He is honest in his convictions and I have never thought anything other from him. AD never engages in arguments etc. He doesn't disrupt and he also does not troll or flame. Leave him be. I have zero problems with his existence here and elsewhere. No, I do not know him in real life.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:08 pm

Nordic » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:17 pm wrote:AD is here to spread terrorist Jihadist propaganda.


Fuckin' clockwork.

See you in February, appreciate the reminder I really do need to Read Every Thread, Every Day.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby semper occultus » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:11 pm

I do re-call all the ultimately somewhat over hyped stuff in the 80's ( esp CND etc ) that Reagan was going to trigger the apocalypse because he was so anti-Russian ( OK anti-USSR ) - it wasn't just satire either - every statement & open-mike comment was pored over & his mental state forensically examined via the tv ...

I'm just guessing some of those folks who are still around are now experiencing similar problems with the President for being too pro-Russian... :shrug:
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby PufPuf93 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:40 pm

Russia is an old country that has experienced great trials of social upheaval, wars, etc. in the overlap of history with that of the USA.

The people of Russia have experienced more pain and Russia has been less violently colonial and had more reason for military defense.

Russia is blessed with many abundant natural resources.

Russia has existed more often as a closed totalitarian society.

Russian global expansion and political influence has not been as omnipresent and total as that of the USA ever, with some notable exceptions (Cuba, parts of Arab world, border republics). Russia has not specialized in regime change or country destabilization usually for private business interests but in the name of ideology as has the USA.

Despite great success in cooperation, the USA policy has demonized Russia out side of brief periods of cooperation (notably WWII and the transfer of Alaska).

The USA did not act in good faith on the Fall of the USSR; rather than improve relations, the USA fostered an invasion of the neoliberal oligarchs and gained geopolitical ground in the former Russian border republics that were once part of the USSR.

Despite USA rhetoric and propaganda, Russia is a great culture, more of the West than of the East, and a leader modern science and technology.

So I guess I am apologizing for Russia.

Most of my life the USA has been far superior and I'd rather be in the USA.

Russia is not the evil empire of the Red Menace nor (do I believe) the election manipulator that brought Trump. I think these rumors and narratives say more about the USA than about Russia.
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