Fuck the Tories

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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby stefano » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:21 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:21 pm wrote:Only a fully proportional representation system can be democratic.

I disagree. I live in a PR country with one dominant party, and Parliament is essentially useless. Some signs of greater efficiency as the dominant party fractures, but still at the moment we'd be better off taking those 400 fat fucks' salaries (they're on like $100,000 a year before committee add-ons and benefits) and building primary schools with them. I really like what the Brits have, I like the responsiveness of it, the way they actually really have to look after constituents' concerns. You're wrong to say it's not democratic - there are rules and that's how it works. It's not as though the Prime Minister is some sort of absolute ruler, and that the sole question in a general election is the name of the PM.

Interestingly the PR system in South Africa is an artefact of white paranoia - when only whites voted we had a constituency system, but of course if there's a dominant party countrywide then Parliament ends up overrepresenting that party. So the Nats pushed for PR during negotiations.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:49 pm

The Tories' coalition partners:



Three more graphs at the link, highly recommended for non-UK readers in a hurry.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:29 pm

stefano » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:21 pm wrote:
JackRiddler » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:21 pm wrote:Only a fully proportional representation system can be democratic.

I disagree. I live in a PR country with one dominant party, and Parliament is essentially useless. Some signs of greater efficiency as the dominant party fractures, but still at the moment we'd be better off taking those 400 fat fucks' salaries (they're on like $100,000 a year before committee add-ons and benefits) and building primary schools with them. I really like what the Brits have, I like the responsiveness of it, the way they actually really have to look after constituents' concerns. You're wrong to say it's not democratic - there are rules and that's how it works. It's not as though the Prime Minister is some sort of absolute ruler, and that the sole question in a general election is the name of the PM.

Interestingly the PR system in South Africa is an artefact of white paranoia - when only whites voted we had a constituency system, but of course if there's a dominant party countrywide then Parliament ends up overrepresenting that party. So the Nats pushed for PR during negotiations.


Democracy describes rule of the people. "There are rules and that's how it works" describes a republic. (And never mind that Britain is technically not a republic, for all intents and purposes it has been since 1688ish.) Republic and democracy are not contradictory (as some would claim) but overlapping categories. But not identical.

Britain has an elected government that does not require a majority but only the right combination of winning totals that always adds up to less than a majority and can even be less than a plurality. In my opinion this is not representative; territorially defined units pick winners, rather than voters getting representation in proportion to their votes.

The Prime Minister is not an absolute ruler (where did I say that?!) but in the UK system the ruling party, assuming it is unified and given a sufficient majority, has near-absolute power over legislation and policy. This is constrained potentially only by courts or fear of political or economic consequences if they fuck up or go too far.

The more direct tie to a constituency and attendant care is nice and very good for many in given communities, charming even, but actually not directly related to legislation. Laws are made only in parliament on national majority vote. Nor does it have a direct effect on policy, which is made by the government appointed by parliament and consisting of parliamentarians.

There are reasons to argue for in all this but the particular election system can have arbitrary results, as in Scotland yesterday (717 K for Labour = 7 deputies, 757 K for Tories = 13, about a million for SNP = 30ish). It was just calculated that Labour could have swung 7 additional districts with just 2,227 more votes if spread the right way, or the Tories would have had a majority with 230. The media would be inflating either case into the true "will of the people." Which is bullshit.

P.R. shows the people as they truly voted.

And I'm sure that plenty of British people feel about their 650 salary-drawers exactly the same as you do about the S.A. deputies. It doesn't really address my point. There can be many problems with a country and political system whether or not it is fully democratic by my definition.

Also, finally, I say P.R. is a prerequisite for a real democracy, not equivalent to. And a real democracy by that def can still produce questionable results. Obviously. But at least you don't have the ridiculous situation we have in the U.S., for example, which in regard to the presidency is just an elective authoritarianism with forced two-horse races, and in which the official vote loser has now won twice only since 2000, in both cases producing unprecedented radical moves to even greater authoritarianism and war.

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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:49 pm

Clara Jeffery (49) is Editor-in-Chief of Mother Jones, a politics magazine:

Image

Ah yes, the UK's exciting new "past-the-post" system, making its debut at this election...

back to tony‏ @ItsTonyNow 15 hours ago

holy christ. she's so stupid. why not fucking google it before boldly opining "a new system is why Labour did well"

https://twitter.com/ItsTonyNow/status/8 ... 4002719745


One very good thing about this election is that it has completely discredited practically every member of the liberal/pseudleft punditocracy, on both sides of the Atlantic. Yes, Owen Jones, you little snake, I'm looking at you and Cohen and Freedland and Toynbee and Rentoul and all those other capitalist-realist Blairite Guardianista smugsters who are now rushing to cover their own embarrassment. You all worked tirelessly to destroy Corbyn and everything he stands for, and none of you saw this result coming.



The whole book, Matthew! The whole book! (You can't believe a word these people say.)
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:43 pm

Hiya Mac, keeping awright? I'm cheerier about the results than I was the other night/day, where I fortuitously got shitfaced just in time for the announcement of the attempted DUP coaltion deal.

I'll try not to go on too long here, but undoubtedly will.

Corbyn deserves massive congratulations. Largest vote share increase since 1945, largest vote for Labour since 1997, first time Labour have actually gained seats in a GE since 1997 (Kensington!!!), and this election has seen the highest youth turnout in donkey's years, perhaps ever.

Two-and-a-bit years of relentless attacks from all sides, leaving Corby with more knives in him than Julius Ceasar, yet he still managed to reduce the Tory majority by a phenomenal amount.

Owen Smith couldn't have done it, needless to say.

Just as you haven't been paying much attention to Scottish politics
recently, I was only keeping a sleepy eye on what's been happening in the rest of the UK (except Stormont, which is non-stop entertainment), so the extent of the Corbyn surge genuinely caught me on the hop.

Like I said, up here a vote for Labour would've only strengthened the Blairite dregs that remain in charge of ScotLab, or worse still let a Tory in by splitting the left vote, as has obviously happened in a few seats - but it'll be very tempting to lend Corbyn a ballot if there's another GE in the near future. Obviously a lot of SNP and Yes folk got tempted already, and failed to roll a saving throw.

Can't resist posting this even though it's ludicrous. Has to be seen to be believed:



Much like Trump in the US, Jeremy might win just because his side (for the first time in forever) have the better jokes, .gifs, memes, etc.

That Corbyn side-eye .gif from the Channel 4 debate deserves a re-post now I think.

Counterpoint to the good stuff: The Tories actually increased their vote. Seriously. If the election had been England-only, they would've got their majority with few problems (turns out the provinces CAN influence the outcome of General Elections after all... but only to the point where the DUP get brought into play).

After years of calling Jeremy a terrorist sympathizer, the Tories are openly looking to team up with literal ex-terrorists - they're now friends to Al-Nusra and the UDA. How does that happen?

The only thing that's preventing them from forming a government right now... is... the moral standards of the DUP. The ethical stance... of the DUP! The principles and integrity... of the DUP!

Fucking hilarious.

The only thing that could make it funnier at this stage would be if Sinn Fein suddenly decided to take their seats at Westminster and help Corbyn form a progressive alliance that locked the Tories out.

FUN FACT: Jeremy Corbyn is eight years older than Theresa May.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:08 pm

Sorry about this, it's a long 'un. Has to be done though.

Commiserations about the SNP's heavy losses. I'd be interested to hear why you think that happened. I haven't been following Scottish politics at all closely since the referendum.


I sometimes think the SNP haven't been following it very closely either.

While that article from the Express has more than a grain of truth to it (a rarity for the Express, that), it still provides no excuse for the weak and wasted campaign they ran. I realize it was a surprise GE and everyone's war chests and energies are depleted right now - Theresa was relying on that fact - but the Nats were using cheapo low-effort re-cuts of old PPBs and leaflets that looked like they'd been designed and printed on an Amiga. The optics weren't good, as arseholes say nowadays.

Perhaps they were trying to save their funds for Indyref 2? lol

On that subject... Although I feel like the SNP did all they could to accomodate the UK Gov on Brexit and find some compromise with them (they spent months submitting perfectly reasonable suggestions to Downing Street while being dismissed and derided in equal measure for their pains, all after being promised a seat at the negotiating table by David Davies), the country sees it differently.

The country isn't necessarily wrong. It IS too soon for indyref2. Many more years of stagnation and suffering are required first.

On Brexit, the SNP took the Laodicean route, and the electorate answered them in the voice of Christ:

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that thou were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will expel thee, I will spew thee out of my mouth.”

In the space of a year the SNP went from championing full continuing EU membership to wanting a Norway-style EEA deal, to wanting some kind of undefined single market membership with unknown extra elements (probably Freedom of Movement, customs union membership, regulatory compliance on the
standards of goods, etc.)

No matter which one of these options you might favour, it still looks weak and indecisive for a party to cycle down through a long list of all of them.

They also seem to have forgotten that although the Remain vote won convincingly in Scotland, there were still just over a million people here who voted to Leave the EU. It was silly to ignore them and pretend like they don't exist - just as silly as it was for the unionist parties to ignore the existence of independence supporters in 2015, which led to them being routed almost to a man. We should've learned from our own success in that battle, but didn't.

We were never going to replicate the electoral rampage of 2015, unfortunately. It was a bit of a fluke, a unique confluence of events and mindsets, unlikely to ever be repeated. But there's no need for weeping and rending of garments just yet. In 2010 we held only 6 Westminster seats and still got a referendum, in 2015 we won 56 of them, and now it's down to 35. We've had worse nights.

It was stupid to assume all those ex-Labour, ex-Lib, and even ex-Tory voters would
stay SNP-Loyal-4-Lyfe after 2015. They gave us their votes, not their bonded oaths. Of the near 500,000 votes the SNP lost the other night, 60% went to Labour, 30% to the Tories, and the rest to the Libs.

lol, check that "We."

It's 100% true that the unionist parties have been colluding with each other electorally, running paper candidates in certain target seats to give their nominal rivals a better chance of unseating the SNP incumbents:

Unionist parties 'working against SNP in key seats

Unionist parties are working together by fielding "paper candidates" in some key SNP constituencies they are looking to win at the general election, STV News has learned.

The move is aimed at ensuring the anti-SNP vote is not split in marginal seats, which could see the Nationalist candidate win in those areas.

Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are fielding contenders in all 59 seats but some will be "paper candidates" - they will appear on the ballot paper but will not be actively campaigning...

A senior Conservative source said it was "not a formal arrangement" between the parties but the "reality of the situation" on the ground was they were, in effect, helping each other in certain seats.

The Conservatives are aiming to topple SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson in Moray, where there is a lack of active campaigning by the Lib Dems and Labour.

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1390070-un ... key-seats/


This included Scottish Labour candidates giving a leg-up to Tories. You see
why I couldn't vote for them?

... but we've known about that kind of collaborative effort since 2011 when Auld Jim Murphy was running the unionist cross-party anti-democratic front. It was revealed in the Wikileaks diplomatic cables:

4. (SBU/NF) Throughout 2009, UK Secretary of State for Scotland Jim Murphy played a leadership role in organizing the opposition parties, hoping to move Scotland toward implementation of the Calman recommendations as an alternative to an independence referendum

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10LONDON126_a.html


The SNP should know about this stuff and be prepared for it, but they don't seem to have the gumption.

Now to the real problem... the North East (of Scotland). These people, through the oil and gas industry, have contributed £222 billion more in taxation to the UK Treasury over the last 40 years than if they'd simply matched the per capita tax contributions of people in the rest of the UK. In return, they have received fuck all from the UK Government.

So, having been ripped off (mostly by the Tories) for a generation, on a truly staggering scale, and then abandoned at the first sign of trouble as soon as they stopped bringing in a profit (more than 70,000 jobs lost in the region since the oil price crashed), they decided to vote... for the Tories.

The fishermen were even dumber. Betrayed by the Tories under Heath in 1970 in order to smooth the UK's entry to the EEC, then betrayed again by Thatcher in
1983 when it came time for her to renegotiate the Common Fisheries Policy, they decided to take a belated revenge by voting... for the Tories.

The Conservatives will sell them down the river so quick in the Brexit negotiations that their heads will spin. The dozy gits didn't realize that the looming threat of an independence referendum was the only thing stopping the Tories from handing all Scotland's goods to the EU in return for a better deal for England,

Long ago on the independence thread I said of the fishermen:

it stopped them from voting Tory, though, which a lot of them used to do (seeing their boats as private enterprises, and themselves as rugged individualist entrepreneurs). They won't be making that mistake again.


I was wrong. Sigh.

John Harris has a good wee video on what happened up in the North East if you're interested, made before the vote and showing the direction of travel towards self-destructive industrial suicide, but I've mumbled on enough here already. Cheerio.
Last edited by AhabsOtherLeg on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:23 pm

ON EDIT: Our posts crossed, Ahab. Thanks for taking the trouble to give a detailed overview. I`m just gonna post this pointless wee jobby of a post anyway, for the time being, cos it`s the best I can manage this evening.

___________________


AhabsOtherLeg wrote:The only thing that could make it funnier at this stage would be if Sinn Fein suddenly decided to take their seats at Westminster and help Corbyn form a progressive alliance that locked the Tories out


Ha! That would be funny. But the Speaker would probably impose special restrictions on them before letting them make their maiden speeches.



That Thor thing. Those young uns, eh? The pains they take.

I don`t know how this Brexit thing is gonna pan out. I don`t know how the UK is gonna remain intact. I don`t know if the Tories can ever do anything evil enough to make them unelectable in England. I don`t know anything, of course, except that the world still has a decidedly July-1914 feeling to it, and I prefer not even to think about Faslane.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:31 pm

AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:08 pm wrote:Now to the real problem... the North East. These people, through the oil and gas industry, have contributed £222 billion more in taxation to the Uk Treasury over the last 40 years than if they'd simply matched the per capita tax contributions of people in the rest of the UK. In return, they have received fuck all from the UK Government.

So, having been ripped off (mostly by the Tories) for a generation, on a truly staggering scale, and then abandoned at the first sign of trouble as soon as they stopped bringing in a profit (more than 70,000 jobs lost in the region since the oil price crashed), they decided to vote... for the Tories.

The fishermen were even dumber. Betrayed by the Tories under Heath in 1970 in order to smooth the UK's entry to the EEC, then betrayed again by Thatcher in
1983 when it came time for her to renegotiate the Common Fisheries Policy, they decided to take a belated revenge by voting... for the Tories.

The Conservatives will sell them down the river so quick in the Brexit negotiations that their heads will spin. The dozy gits didn't realize that the looming threat of an independence referendum was the only thing stopping the Tories from handing all Scotland's goods to the EU in return for a better deal for England,

Long ago on the independence thread I said of the fishermen:

it stopped them from voting Tory, though, which a lot of them used to do (seeing their boats as private enterprises, and themselves as rugged individualist entrepreneurs). They won't be making that mistake again.


I was wrong. Sigh.

John Harris has a good wee video on what happened up in the North East if you're interested, made before the vote and showing the direction of travel towards self-destructive industrial suicide, but I've mumbled on enough here already. Cheerio.


The NE isn't a monolithic entity though (as I'm sure you don't need pointing out to you). Over-generalisation of the area lumps metropolitan Newcastle in with Teeside and Wearside. The political culture (and economy) in Newcastle is far closer to the southern, student/ young people heavy areas that swung the vote towards Labour. Teeside and Wearside are totally screwed and it is there that the narrative of decline, anti immigration and insular Brexit can be said to be "true" in the way that those who only know the region through the national press and broad-brush statistics would recognise. Newcastle's west end atm reminds me of South London 20 years ago, demographic change is coming, with consolidation of the regions' population and employment in Newcastle (for better or worst). If boundary reviews were held on to the timetable they were originally intended to be and not just used as an excuse to reduce the number of MPs to thwart the left, the political representation and therefore perception of the NE as a post-industrial wasteland populated only by savages who haven't invented fire yet may change to something more realistic*. But I'm not holding my breath.

*drunk savages who haven't invented fire yet but take pride in wearing as little as possible when it's cold
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:21 pm

Sorry Gnostic, I wasn't clear enough - my whole second post there was only about Scotland and the SNP/Tory tussle.

When I said the North East I meant Aberdeenshire, Moray, Banff and Buchan, all those sorts of places that suffered a weird Tory revival up here. Definitely not Newcastle or Wearside. I'll edit it a li'l bit to make it clearer.

I thought the point about the oil and gas revenue would've shown that I wasn't talking about Teeside though (Lord love the Mackems and Geordies and all the rest, but I don't think they've contributed £222 billion in tax over and above the UK average to the Treasury in the course of my lifetime. :rofl2 )

Folk from the North East of England have nothing in particular to be ashamed of after this GE, so far as I've heard. It's folk in the North East of Scotland who should hang their heads (but they won't).

Rory pointed out on the other thread that Liverpool had a Labour vote of around 80%. They don't read The Sun in Liverpool...

Thanks for the insight into how the demographic and political sands are shifting down there though. You weren't wrong about Corbyn's potential. Hope you're right about Newcastle's potential too.

Mac, no worries, I don't hardly expect nobody to read the whole of those posts, never mind clicking the links or watching the videos. There's no hurry. I'll probably be disappearing again after a few posts anyway, just dropping by since there was a political upset, for the banter.

Liam Fox for PM, then we can finally get some use out of Faslane, eh?

...I watched Threads about a week ago. Wish I hadn't.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby conniption » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:23 pm

Socialism Strikes Back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsGVghRBdKI
Jonathan Pie
Published on Jun 9, 2017

Pie's analysis of the election results.
_______

Mighty fine to see/read you at RI, Ahab, even if you do talk funny. Know that you will be missed something awful when you disappear again.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby kool maudit » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:06 am

MacCruiskeen » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:49 am wrote:One very good thing about this election is that it has completely discredited practically every member of the liberal/pseudleft punditocracy, on both sides of the Atlantic. Yes, Owen Jones, you little snake, I'm looking at you and Cohen and Freedland and Toynbee and Rentoul and all those other capitalist-realist Blairite Guardianista smugsters who are now rushing to cover their own embarrassment. You all worked tirelessly to destroy Corbyn and everything he stands for, and none of you saw this result coming.





This was very satisfying.
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby Luther Blissett » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:28 pm

MacCruiskeen » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:23 pm wrote:
AhabsOtherLeg wrote:…The only thing that could make it funnier at this stage would be if Sinn Fein suddenly decided to take their seats at Westminster and help Corbyn form a progressive alliance that locked the Tories out


Ha! That would be funny. But the Speaker would probably impose special restrictions on them before letting them make their maiden speeches.…


Hey guess what!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3786046/s ... -majority/
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby Luther Blissett » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:44 pm

The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:01 pm

AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:21 pm wrote:Sorry Gnostic, I wasn't clear enough - my whole second post there was only about Scotland and the SNP/Tory tussle.

When I said the North East I meant Aberdeenshire, Moray, Banff and Buchan, all those sorts of places that suffered a weird Tory revival up here. Definitely not Newcastle or Wearside. I'll edit it a li'l bit to make it clearer.

I thought the point about the oil and gas revenue would've shown that I wasn't talking about Teeside though (Lord love the Mackems and Geordies and all the rest, but I don't think they've contributed £222 billion in tax over and above the UK average to the Treasury in the course of my lifetime. :rofl2 )

Folk from the North East of England have nothing in particular to be ashamed of after this GE, so far as I've heard. It's folk in the North East of Scotland who should hang their heads (but they won't).

Rory pointed out on the other thread that Liverpool had a Labour vote of around 80%. They don't read The Sun in Liverpool...

Thanks for the insight into how the demographic and political sands are shifting down there though. You weren't wrong about Corbyn's potential. Hope you're right about Newcastle's potential too.

Mac, no worries, I don't hardly expect nobody to read the whole of those posts, never mind clicking the links or watching the videos. There's no hurry. I'll probably be disappearing again after a few posts anyway, just dropping by since there was a political upset, for the banter.

Liam Fox for PM, then we can finally get some use out of Faslane, eh?

...I watched Threads about a week ago. Wish I hadn't.


Doh! Just shows that a) I should try reading properly before posting (and not posting past my bedtime) and b) automatically assuming everything must be about Engerland....
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Re: Fuck the Tories

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:40 pm

AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:43 pm wrote:
Can't resist posting this even though it's ludicrous. Has to be seen to be believed:



Much like Trump in the US, Jeremy might win just because his side (for the first time in forever) have the better jokes, .gifs, memes, etc.


Yeah, pretty stupid - and priceless. Worth watching twice.
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