True Detective on HBO

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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:34 pm

There was a knowing glance between Antigone and Paul when Velcoro was talking to Davis that I didn't understand. It doesn't seem like anyone knows yet. The timeline might be moving fast now.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:56 pm

Am I the only one who’s noticed a drastic drop off in quality in the last two episodes? If the first four were A+, these last two have been C-.

I am guessing there’s a highly subjective element here: since I’d just written the long post about the first four, I was heavily invested in the idea of the show’s brilliance (I got enmeshed), so it’s probably not a coincidence that it was right after writing that post that my enjoyment of the show bottomed out. But it’s not entirely subjective. The first four episodes were dense, complex, slow moving, highly atmospheric, difficult to follow or get a read on where they were going. They were also unremittingly bleak. People complained about it, along with the unfathomable plotlines.

The last two shows have been simple, one-dimensional, with easy to follow storylines and familiar characterizations; even the dialogue seems to have become more obviously hardboiled and less esoteric. In a word: what happened to the nuance? They have also become pat-ly linear to the point of total implausibility. The original team all being demoted or kicked off the squad and then miraculously reassembled in an undercover operation? Please. How easily and quickly Ray finds out about Frank’s henchman and his secret dealings. The kitchen showdown with Frank was nice, but it also felt a bit pat: “You may be the only friend I’ve got.” “How fucked up would that be?” It’s funny, but do we really need to be told? The show had been subtly indicating that progression for several weeks, now we have to have it spelled out for us? Something has gone wrong with TD.

How about the party scene and the Bond like break-in and getaway? If anything needed to be the showstopper it was that, but it felt more like outtakes from Eyes Wide Shut intercut with Mission Impossible. Even Ray’s breakdown in episode 6 was “up,” more Tarantino than Lynch.

I know there’s no sense complaining—especially if I’m the only one having this reaction. What I want to ask is, could the change in the show be a corporate reaction to the poor reception it’s been getting? Maybe Pizzolatto had a deal with HBO: final cut on the first 4 episodes, followed by a renegotiation. If the ratings and reviews were good, he could finish it how he wanted. If not, as was the case, HBO would move in and re-edit the shows. Maybe they even had their own edits ready? People complained about the overly complex plotline? OK, no problem, here’s a show that a 12-year old could follow. Viewers didn’t like what a downer it was, all that brooding misery and dysfunctional sexuality? OK, here’s some more action.

The more I think about it, the more logical it seems. Corporations take a chance on doing something edgy, sure; but they also want to cover their asses if it doesn’t fly.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:16 pm

I love the constant mention of "the circuit" and all that is implied by it. They mention the missing maid went to work for the curcuit. Various clubs are referred to as "curcuit clubs." The Mayor's weirdo son tells Ani and Ray that he is an organizer of "events for the curcuit."

Obvious the circuit is the Eyes Wide Shut type parties that are thrown on the regular by the "Old Money Families" as Frank calls them and it is obvious that sex slaves are being used and passed along within this curcuit of parties. Really interesting stuff.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:17 pm

I cant imagine most people watching this show are able to really appreciate things like the above as much as we are. What percentage of HBO viewers even know what the Bohemian Grove is and what that all means and implies, I would say its a very small number but without knowing these things you really cant appreciate what is going on in this show.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:20 pm

Disagree/Unsure: HBO would make just as much money letting it die (remember, major motion pictures make money because they never make money) and so far, HBO brass have a pretty binary relationship with their writer/auteurs -- you're either funded or fired.

Also, the logistics involved seem pretty insane, but I have no idea what kind of labor scale x coordination they can muster for re-edits on a compressed timeframe like that. Especially in terms of the action scenes. I feel pretty confident saying that would be impossible - re-shooting dialog is at least feasible.

I recall that the Episode 4/5 fulcrum was the first time Pizzolatto brought on a collaborator (or at least a credited collaborator) in the form of fellow novelist Scott Lasser.

The conspiracy they just stole a bunch of the source code for is the same one they've been investigating all along. If anything, the scope just got widened. I think most of "The Circuit" will remain intact at the end of episode 8, considering the alternative is "Arresting Every Major Elected Official in California State Government."

While the Kubrick x Cruise comparison is artfully composed, Eyes Wide Shut was a ritual, and the onscreen sexuality in True Detective was a basic limos & coke orgy interspersed with Ani's memories of abuse. Mission Impossible is pretty fair, though!
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:27 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:20 pm wrote:While the Kubrick x Cruise comparison is artfully composed

Ah - because it was done unconsciously - I didn't make the connection till you did!

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:20 pm wrote:Eyes Wide Shut was a ritual, and the onscreen sexuality in True Detective was a basic limos & coke orgy interspersed with Ani's memories of abuse.

Yeah. But the style seemed similar, as was my feeling of underwhelm-ment.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby brekin » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:36 pm

Image
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:42 pm

guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:27 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:20 pm wrote:Eyes Wide Shut was a ritual, and the onscreen sexuality in True Detective was a basic limos & coke orgy interspersed with Ani's memories of abuse.

Yeah. But the style seemed similar, as was my feeling of underwhelm-ment.


Well, they're pretty fucking depressing affairs, so either way, I guess that is appropriate.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:55 pm

Maybe I got triggered, but consciously my feeling of depression relates not to the subject matter but to the experience of emotionally investing in a narrative only to find it devolving into a series of cliches: a bit like with The Matrix sequels.

I guess it's the stark contrast between what TD seemed to be moving towards (i.e., what I was able to imagine) and where it is ending up, i.e, what corporate-backed writers and directors were able, or allowed, to serve up.

Maybe the lesson is, a TV show is never going to be a substitute for imagination: or approximate reality?
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:42 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:20 pm wrote:Disagree/Unsure: HBO would make just as much money letting it die (remember, major motion pictures make money because they never make money) and so far, HBO brass have a pretty binary relationship with their writer/auteurs -- you're either funded or fired.

Also, the logistics involved seem pretty insane, but I have no idea what kind of labor scale x coordination they can muster for re-edits on a compressed timeframe like that. Especially in terms of the action scenes. I feel pretty confident saying that would be impossible - re-shooting dialog is at least feasible.

I recall that the Episode 4/5 fulcrum was the first time Pizzolatto brought on a collaborator (or at least a credited collaborator) in the form of fellow novelist Scott Lasser.

The conspiracy they just stole a bunch of the source code for is the same one they've been investigating all along. If anything, the scope just got widened. I think most of "The Circuit" will remain intact at the end of episode 8, considering the alternative is "Arresting Every Major Elected Official in California State Government."

While the Kubrick x Cruise comparison is artfully composed, Eyes Wide Shut was a ritual, and the onscreen sexuality in True Detective was a basic limos & coke orgy interspersed with Ani's memories of abuse. Mission Impossible is pretty fair, though!

And that is what would happen in real life too, the circuit would remain in tact, in fact, in real life they would probably never get as close as they have without being shut down completely. So I am ok with that ending, anything else would be make believe anyway, these people are all untouchable and will always be that way because...money.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:54 pm

If it is true, in real life, that a lot of the people in places of power and influence, are involved in secret sex parties involving children and hookers, then it would sure go a long way in explaining why things work as they do. It would be the reason the media really never goes after any of them and why they mostly never go after each other, all they do is talk but in the end nothing ever gets done. It would explain why nobody ever blows the whistle on the shit going on after they leave office. The reason being, they all have the goods on each other. They have all been put in positions where they can now be easily blackmailed.

I tend to believe this is all true but I sure have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of it all. I guess I am still slightly naive about it.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:02 pm

guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:55 pm wrote:Maybe I got triggered, but consciously my feeling of depression relates not to the subject matter but to the experience of emotionally investing in a narrative only to find it devolving into a series of cliches: a bit like with The Matrix sequels.

I guess it's the stark contrast between what TD seemed to be moving towards (i.e., what I was able to imagine) and where it is ending up, i.e, what corporate-backed writers and directors were able, or allowed, to serve up.

Maybe the lesson is, a TV show is never going to be a substitute for imagination: or approximate reality?
I know exactly how you feel. Along these lines anyone want to share what they think an ending to this show SHOULD look like, would you like to see the entire circuit frogmarched to justice and if so, who would carry that all out since everyone in any position to do so would likely end up a perp LOL.

What is your ideal ending to TD season 2 RI?


For me, I would be happy to know the entire thing, every detail, became a front page story in the LA Times and that people were finally made aware of it and came to understand that such things were no longer to be brushed off as tin foil hattery.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:07 pm

Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:02 pm wrote:
For me, I would be happy to know the entire thing, every detail, became a front page story in the LA Times and that people were finally made aware of it and came to understand that such things were no longer to be brushed off as tin foil hattery.


Yeah, don't let it be the Mercury News. RIP Gary Webb.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Hunter » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:02 pm wrote:
guruilla » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:55 pm wrote:What is your ideal ending to TD season 2 RI?


For me, I would be happy to know the entire thing, every detail, became a front page story in the LA Times and that people were finally made aware of it and came to understand that such things were no longer to be brushed off as tin foil hattery.

This already IS all over the front pages of major UK publications, with something like 3 million victims of institutional sexual abuse coming forward. I don't see this as some sort of closure, it seems way more likely to me that it's all being managed with an eye towards a) containment/damage control; b) controlled social destabilization. c) normalization of pedophilia.

Think about it: if the evidence becomes undeniable that the entire social superstructure on which our continued comfort and even our survival depends is overrun with (because run by) sadistic child abusers, the choices are either: dismantle those structures and face social chaos, and/or flee into the wildnerness with one's kids; start a revolution; or, start to reconsider our convictions about the wrongness or rightness of child sexual abuse. "How bad can it be if all our leaders are doing it and if everyone I know is a victim of it?" Call it the Dawkins complex.

Not that this is a rational, thought out process, but I'm describing it as if it were for simplicity's sake. More bluntly put, the more and more evidence there is for how fucked up things are, the more people are gonna get triggered by their own sexual abuse histories, the more likely they are to shut down and stop thinking about it (and even become hostile to anyone who reminds them and support laws banning "conspiracy theories"). Or, when it gets too great to push under the rug, maybe they will rise up in revolt against it, in one great collective displacement activity for a whole society being triggered.

As for TD2, my disappointment isn't to do with how I want things to turn out, in the world or even in the show, but with how deep we/they are willing to go, how many rocks to turn over and how unflinchingly to gaze into the slime and bug life beneath.

Again compare to The Counselor and TD starts looking more and more like kids' stuff. What I liked about the first 4 shows was how starkly it depicted the sheer powerlessness of the characters ~ even the seemingly powerful ones, like Frank.

Finding a way to bring this bunch of soul-burned losers into contact with the agents of Plutocracy would have been a hell of a coup, because really, the two worlds never meet, do they? I think if it showed more about why Frank couldn't get access to the upper ranks and what he would have to do, become, to do so, and how that turned him against the power he was aspiring to gain and aligned him more with Ray (back when he was fully broken), in powerlessness, that would have been way more interesting. And if they were just trying to find out what was going on, without trying to bust it open or stop it (admitting defeat from the start), that might make it more plausible that they could gain some access.

Simply put, the show needed to move more towards the existential aspect, and away from the detection. The last two episodes were no longer going deeper into the characters, IMO, it has become all a bit paint-by-numbers. So the plot deteriorates along with that, until it doesn't feel like it's about anything much besides doing an edgy TV show.
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Re: True Detective on HBO

Postby Laodicean » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:13 pm





Point in the show: All of them in car turning onto road, Closing Credits
Artist/Song :The Black Angels with “Black Grease


- http://truedetectivemusic.com/

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