2014 Malaysian Planes Lost: Pacific and Ukraine

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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 82_28 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:05 pm

ShinShinKid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:11 pm wrote:Sorry to come off cavalier, it's been quite an overload to the senses, lately.


Yes. Something is working to some unknown climax. I've been speculating within myself nonstop. Wouldn't we all be "disappointed" were there not some climax? They know we are expecting it. Also, I like the observation that this had to be done in a way that CTists would help rescatter the confusion. This is why I really like to watch the beginning coverage of shit like this. The networks certainly had a shit ton of "experts" in place in order to make timely coverage possible in a setting that was not chaotic -- actually rather "rehearsed".

Yet the fact remains that there are indeed global satellites that keep track of these advanced aircraft, thus making the previous Malaysian Airlines situation more narratively tenable. Here is the thing. Why so much effort into doing this and just one airline and global region? That is where we should be most aware. Not what, but rather how and why. . .
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby smiths » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:27 pm

Option 1, Russians shot plane down. Highly unlikely since the Russians are steadily gaining ground in the Ukraine fighting and Kiev is losing. and the Russians have absolutely nothing to gain through this.

Option 2, Pro-Russian forces inside Ukraine 'accidentally' shot down plane. Clearly this requires a sophisticated piece of equipment (which could be supplied by Russians)
the problem as i see it with this option as that you would have to know that the plane you were targeting was at 33,000 feet (commercial international flight)
you would also almost certainly know what plane you were targetting (i can get the info freely on my phone - what airline, what speed, what flight number etc - so surly that info comes up on a surface to air missile system)
thats a big 'accident'

Option 3, False Flag run out of Ukraine, probably by foreign experts. Huge amounts to gain for pro-Western forces, especially considering that they are losing ground in Ukraine. Extreme step to take but we know well that a few hundred dead people means nothing to the people who do this kind of thing
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby smiths » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:34 pm

there was an interesting link on Zero Hedge about how the plane had flown a route far to the south on its last 10 trips and thats its diversion over the no fly zone was an abberation

Zero Hedge has been inaccesible for me for the last couple of hours so i cant get it
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:46 pm

ShinShinKid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:02 pm wrote:I missed the mass coverage, I listened to the radio, I listened to NPR, then the other end of the dial for a bit.
.I don't read russian, I don't read ukraine, either. I have read what looks like a FB post from at least one leader(translated, of course), then a "retweet" of a link to said fb post from another. Google Igor Strelkov, or
http://t.co/TuSTDOF5LL but the key is to do your own research, make your own opinion.
Also, if you look on reddit, and 4 chan, there are pictures of russian military in ukraine, they have been there for a while...working in an"advisory" role only, er, no that's "peacekeeping", I think. I think a short search of either site will supply you with the forensic proof you're looking for.
For starters on a decent twitter feed..http://twitter.com/liveuamap.
As for speculation, someone claimed responsibility, then eschewed it when it was determined the victims were for all intents and purposes, innocent. 18 years after TWA 800, too. I am not blaming the russian government, but you can be darned sure that buk system didn't run itself. Some one fired the missle, now the UN is calling for an international investigation, which is as likely as as rig inter changing their stance on crisis actors, eh?
and I git my information from Duck Dynasty, just like everyone else...now I suppose they could be crisis actors, too...prepare yer anus, google, i'm comin' for ya'!

edited for: didn't want to call people a douche...and
Found and amazing amount of intelligence on twitter and fb regarding this fellow mentioned above the "donetsk people's army". Will filter and parse out as it gets juicy...


Whoah...what the hell...

18 year anniversary of TWA 800 TODAY....geezus
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:50 pm

MayDay » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:37 pm wrote:No reason to suspect this is a "capstone" event, Jack? Flight 17, a 777 is shot down over Ukraine on the 17th day of the 7th month of the 14th year, just after the announcement of an intl development bank to rival the western elite/ IMF. Plenty of reason to be relentlessly suspicious, far as I'm concerned.
Edited.


18 year anniversary of TWA 800(hat tip to 82_28) Just read and saw the video of the IMF spokes woman going on and on about the esoteric meaning of 7 in multiples.
7 in multiples seems to yield nasty, nasty things(hiroshima plane number, 9/11, victims in Norway attack, stock market crash in 2008, Malaysia plane models, etc)

But I don't want to derail this with syncs talk. Just totally forgot the TWA 800 anniversary as that was the first 'conspiracy' I ever researched and looked up on the internet back when it first happened.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:06 am

The 800 thing is pretty fucking wild and constitutes a slam-dunk (a more truly dramatic one than usual!) to those who see the signatures in the numbers.

smiths » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:27 pm wrote:Option 2, Pro-Russian forces inside Ukraine 'accidentally' shot down plane. Clearly this requires a sophisticated piece of equipment (which could be supplied by Russians)
the problem as i see it with this option as that you would have to know that the plane you were targeting was at 33,000 feet (commercial international flight)
you would also almost certainly know what plane you were targetting (i can get the info freely on my phone - what airline, what speed, what flight number etc - so surly that info comes up on a surface to air missile system)
thats a big 'accident'


No need for the Russian state to supply anything. Ukrainian army already had Russian-made BuK surface-to-air systems that can hit targets up to 35 or 40 thousand feet. The Donetsk militias include Ukrainian regulars who switched sides and they have seized a lot of Ukrainian army gear. They recently bragged about getting their hands on a BuK (apparently, if tweets are to be believed), and more importantly demonstrated it by downing two Kiev military supply planes in as many weeks, including one the day before MH17 came down. This unit would need to be moving and hiding all the time, and presumably is not operated by its original trained complement. They wouldn't necessarily be looking at their cell phones to identify passenger planes, if they've assumed the plane they're targeting is a Kiev military flight, since a) that wouldn't be announced on your flight ID app and b) using cell phones is an invitation to be blown the fuck up. For all these reasons, it's easy to imagine a fuck-up by Donetsk forces under "Igor."

Of course, it's so plausible that it may have created a temptation for your-

Option 3, False Flag run out of Ukraine, probably by foreign experts. Huge amounts to gain for pro-Western forces, especially considering that they are losing ground in Ukraine. Extreme step to take but we know well that a few hundred dead people means nothing to the people who do this kind of thing


Again the problem here is that this is really easy to get away with and make it impossible to prove otherwise. Not very many moving parts or needs to construct legends. Donetsk just downed planes with BuKs. Kiev has BuKs and controls the crime scene. If the initial Internet statements celebrating the downing were faked, good luck to Igor if he can convince anyone of it.

Let's see what the Donetsk militias themselves and the Russians are claiming within the next day or so. Their best play, if they did fuck up, is to admit it and appeal for a cease-fire, say they're sorry but this is the chance to step back from the murderous brink, try to get Putin to intercede for a federal settlement, etc. etc. If they're smart enough to think that way.

If they don't confess, we can speculate away!

Can't believe the 100 AIDS scientists. Crazy shit.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby semper occultus » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:35 am

Malaysia Plane Crash Victims Included About 100 AIDS Conference Attendees, Report Suggests

The Huffington Post | By Alana Horowitz Email Posted: 07/17/2014 8:27 pm EDT Updated: 18 minutes ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/who-malaysia-plane-crash-victims-aids-_n_5597547.html

Many of the passengers aboard the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday were World Health Organization staffers heading to a conference on AIDS research in Australia, the Guardian reported.

Approximately 100 of the passengers on board were heading to Melbourne for the conference, The Sydney Morning Herald reports, citing conference attendees.

Former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange was a passenger on the plane.

"Joep had an absolute commitment to HIV treatment and care in Asia and Africa," Kirby Institute Director David A Cooper said in a University of New South Wales press release. "The joy in collaborating with Joep was that he would always bring a fresh view, a unique take on things, and he never accepted that something was impossible to achieve."

Glenn Thomas, a spokesperson for WHO's Global TB Program, was also among the victims, according to a fellow staffer. Global TB Program Coordinator Haileyesus Getahun shared the news via Twitter.

Saddened to learn that my friend and @WHO staff who was traveling to @AIDS_conference to Melbourne was on flight #MH17. RIP #Glenn Thomas

— Haileyesus Getahun (@haileygetahun) July 17, 2014

WHO's Dr. Rachel Baggaley told Vox, "I'm just devastated. He's a very close colleague whom I work with on a daily basis. He just had his birthday, he was going to plan all sorts of celebrations."

AIDS campaigner Pim de Kuijer was another victim, The Guardian reports. Former Member of the European Parliament Lousewies van der Laan said, “Pim believed in understanding between countries, the rule of law and equality for all and fought for his values through his work and his political activities. Let's try to live up to his legacy and work even harder towards a peaceful world.''

The International AIDS Conference is taking place in Melbourne this weekend. The International AIDS Society, which organized the event, released a statement following the tragic news:

The International AIDS Society (IAS) today expresses its sincere sadness at receiving news that a number of colleagues and friends en route to attend the 20th International AIDS Conference taking place in Melbourne, Australia, were on board the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight that has crashed over Ukraine earlier today.

At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy.

Former President Bill Clinton is listed as one of the featured speakers for the conference.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby Morty » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:59 am

Putin, in the statement he made, didn't look like he had much hope that it wasn't the separatists. He stuck with the line that it was done in Ukraine therefore the Ukrainians are responsible for it, and if there wasn't an ongoing conflict in Ukraine it never would have happened.

The Russians have such a bloody past, it wouldn't occur to the separatists that they've just dealt their struggle a fatal blow. An unfortunate fuck-up is an unfortunate fuck-up - it doesn't mean you put yer weapons down and start throwing flowers!

My contribution to the coughing and spluttering conspiracy theory: under instruction, the Ukrainians let the separatists get hold of some of their anti-aircraft systems in recent weeks, knowing they could then be blamed for shooting down a passenger plane in due course. To make the operation work, they'd have to make the separatists shoot the actual missile that downed the plane. I've been hearing that a) the separatists claimed to own the sky and that they wouldn't be letting Ukies fly over their territory, and b) the jet flew a hundred miles to the north - into the heart of separatist terrority - of the path trod by every other MA17 flight in the past few weeks*. (They say commercial flights were flying over Ukraine, but were they routinely flying over the heart of eastern Ukraine separatist territory?)

*In a commentfrom a Russian's blogger's blog:
What seems to be a highly significant bit of information can be gained from going to the "Flight Aware--Live FlightTracking" webpage that allows one to track the progress of flights in progress and see the full flight path of completed flights. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS1 ... /EHAM/WMKK
If you type in "Malaysia airlines" in the "Airline" block and "17" in the "Flight #" block and hit the blue "track flight" button, the spreadsheet will populate with all MH 17 flights from 19 July, the day after tomorrow, back to 6 July. Hit the "17 July" link and the interrupted flight path for the destroyed jet liner, ending in eastern Ukraine, will populate on the map at top. Notice the path where it runs north of the Sea of Azov and right through the war zone in Eastern Ukraine. (Zoom in to see more detail.)
Now go to the 16 July flight and compare the flight path. You will see that the 16 July (and all the earlier flights that I checked) run over the Sea of Azov at least 50 miles, and perhaps more, south of the 17 July flight. In other words, they all bypass the area where the intense fighting and military aircraft shoot downs have been taking place.
The obvious question: Why did the 17 July flight path run considerably further north and right through the war zone? If the 17 July flight had hewed to the normal MH 17 flight path, it would never have entered the area in which it was destroyed.

And he's right, the flight that got downed was trying to fly through the heart of eastern Ukraine, whereas all the others skirted to the south of east Ukraine. (I found it easiest to change the date in the flightaware url address to compare different ma17 flights.)
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:21 am

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Mocht hij verdwijnen , zo ziet hij d'r uit .

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Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook ... z37pGjaFJn
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:41 pm

Morty, can you provide screenshots of the flight routes you are talking about? That would be very interesting. It was mentioned on Democracy Now that the flight was 50 miles south of where it had gone on other days.

A round-up of today's media coverage, first item a long live-blog from Indian press going back to initial crash report:

Flight MH17 Live: Putin calls for peace, urges Ukraine's warring sides to lay down arms
http://www.firstpost.com/world/flight-m ... 23115.html


Chilling transcript of militants realizing they shot down civilian plane with nearly 300 on board emerge
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 604391.cms


At NYT link, both Kiev and Donetsk militias have claimed to retrieve black boxes.

Rival Claims Over Crashed Malaysia Airlines Flight Recorders
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world ... de-package

SNIP

Ukrainian intelligence has pointed to a fighter named Igor Bezler, the militia leader in the eastern town of Gorlovka, saying in an intercepted phone call that his men had “shot down a plane” on Thursday. Several assassinations are believed to have happened under Mr. Bezler’s watch soon after his forces took Gorlovka, and he took responsibility for killing a number of Ukrainian militiamen in the town of Volnovakha some weeks ago.

According to Russian Internet sources, he was born in 1965 in Crimea, and studied in Russia. He served in the Russian military but moved back to Ukraine in 2003, where he began to work as the head of security for a factory in Gorlovka. Biographies also note that he had worked in a company that performed burial services but was fired in 2012. He has been wanted by the Ukrainian authorities since April 2014.

Mr. Bezler’s nom de guerre is Bes, which in Russian sounds like the first syllable of his last name, but also means demon. There are rumors that Mr. Bezler does not get along with other militia leaders, and that he has had street battles with the Vostok Battalion, though rebels have dismissed those allegations.

In a slickly produced video called “Heroes of Novorossii,” the name of the self-declared insurgent region, Mr. Bezler was shown wearing a light blue beret. He had blue eyes and a long mustache. In a recent interview with the Russian news agency RIA Novosti, he claimed to be holding 14 Ukrainian soldiers hostage and said that the Ukrainian military had fallen apart, “much like the condition of the Russian military in the early 1990s.”

In the interview, Mr. Bezler said he was a Russian passport holder but had a residency permit in Ukraine. He said he sang the national anthem of the Soviet Union every morning, and usually went to bed around 10:30 p.m. He confirmed that he had worked as head of security for the Gorlovka factory, and claimed that he was fired from the burial services company over a fight with the local mayor who he said was demanding bribes.[/quote]


Stephen Cohen: Downed Malaysian Plane Raises Risk of War Between Russia and the West
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/s ... ane_raises
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 82_28 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:56 pm

Jack wrote:

Can't believe the 100 AIDS scientists. Crazy shit.


Yes crazy. I knew, we all knew there would be a curveball in the story. The lost Malaysian flight was filled with supposedly IBM people. There has to be a pattern to how stupid they think we are. I mean that in the sense there is an occluded re-direction insofar as the displayed ready-to-open conspiracy theories.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby elfismiles » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:11 pm

JackRiddler » 18 Jul 2014 16:41 wrote:Morty, can you provide screenshots of the flight routes you are talking about? That would be very interesting. It was mentioned on Democracy Now that the flight was 50 miles south of where it had gone on other days.


Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-1 ... d-airspace

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Last edited by elfismiles on Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby elfismiles » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:18 pm



Indian PM’s flight was in same air corridor as MH17
about 1 hour ago BY INP

Image

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s flight was in the same air corridor as the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines MH17 which crashed in Ukraine on Thursday.

Modi’s flight to India, which took off from Frankfurt two hours before the crash, was re-routed after the incident was reported, The Hindu reported.

The prime minister was returning to India after attending the sixth BRICS Summit held in Brazil from July 14 to 16.

The MH17 plane went down at Torez near Shakhtersk some 40 kilometres from the Russia border in Ukraine after going off the radar.

According to the report, Modi’s flight Air India-001 took off from Frankfurt at 4.30pm IST and the journey to Ukraine’s city of Donetsk would take approximately three hours.

“That would have put him (Modi) over Ukraine’s Flight Information Region (FIR) about an hour after MH17,” the Indian English daily reported.

“There was no danger to the prime minister’s plane but obviously the area that they would have flown over would have been the same,” the report quoted an unnamed aviation official as saying.

All flights over the area were rerouted after the crash.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/07 ... r-as-mh17/
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:27 pm

Morty, that is interesting!

Also find it interesting that the until-now avoided airspace was over Crimea, presumably a much safer flyover than Eastern Ukraine.

The NYT article has been heavily amended and given a new headline, to reflect the emerged stance of the U.S. government. The Memory Hole. Can't they just publish a new goddamn article?


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world ... raine.html

Obama Points to Pro-Russia Separatists in Downing of Malaysian Airlines Plane

By MICHAEL D. SHEAR, SOMINI SENGUPTA and SABRINA TAVERNISE

JULY 18, 2014

Malaysia Airlines Jet Shot Down Over Ukraine

WASHINGTON — President Obama said Friday that the United States believed the Malaysia Airlines jetliner felled over eastern Ukraine was shot down by a surface-to-air missile from an area inside Ukraine controlled by Russian-backed separatists.

Mr. Obama’s remarks at the White House were the strongest public suggestions yet from the United States over who was responsible for the downing of the jetliner, which exploded, crashed and burned on Thursday on farmland in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people aboard.

Mr. Obama said the loss of life was an “outrage of unspeakable proportions” and a “global tragedy.” He vowed to investigate exactly what happened to end the lives of “men, women, children, infants who had nothing to do with the crisis” in that region. Mr. Obama also said that at least one American was among the dead.

“We are going to make sure the truth is out,” Mr. Obama said, referring to what he described as a trove of misinformation that has already shrouded the plane crash.

“We don’t have time for propaganda,” Mr. Obama said. “We don’t have time for games.”

The president spoke hours after Samantha Power, the American ambassador to the United Nations, told an emergency Security Council meeting on the Ukraine conflict that there was “credible evidence” that pro-Russia separatists and their Russian associates in eastern Ukraine were responsible for the crash.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200, Flight 17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was at a cruising altitude of 33,000 feet in a commonly used air route over eastern Ukraine when it was struck on Thursday.

Both Russia and the separatist groups have denied any responsibility, and some rebel leaders have suggested that Ukraine’s armed forces may have shot down the plane. President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has implicitly blamed Ukraine’s government, saying it created the conditions for the separatist uprising that has escalated into a major crisis. But Mr. Putin has not denied that a Russian-made weapon may have destroyed the aircraft.

Mr. Obama resisted blaming Mr. Putin personally, saying that the government does not know exactly who fired the missile that took down the passenger airline. But he made clear that he holds the Russians responsible for failing to stop the violence that made the shoot-down possible.

“We know that they are heavily armed and they are trained. That is not an accident. That is happening because of Russian support,” Mr. Obama said. He said it is “not possible for these separatists to be functioning they way they are” without Russian support.

The president said that the downing of the plane was a direct result of the ongoing violence in the region and he said that violence had been “facilitated in large part because of Russian support.”

Mr. Obama said that Mr. Putin could make a decision not to allow heavy armaments or troops to flow across the border from Russia into Ukraine. If Mr. Putin does that, he said, “then it will stop.”

In her remarks at the United Nations, Ms. Power said, “We assess Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 carrying these 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine.” She also said the United States could not “rule out technical assistance by Russian personnel” in operating the system.

The 15-member Security Council unanimously called for a “full, thorough and independent international investigation” into the cause of the crash. Jeffrey D. Feltman, the United Nations undersecretary general for political affairs, told the council that 80 children were among the dead.

Play Video|0:46
Scenes From the Malaysia Jet Crash Site
Scenes From the Malaysia Jet Crash Site
A Malaysia Airlines plane carrying 298 passengers and crew members crashed in the Donetsk region of Ukraine, and American officials said it was most likely shot down by an antiaircraft missile.
Video Credit By AP and Reuters on Publish Date July 17, 2014. Image CreditDominique Faget/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images


Ms. Power’s assertions were substantiated by two senior Defense Department officials, who said Pentagon and American intelligence agencies had concluded that an SA-11 missile, fired from an area near the Russia border, had downed the plane.

That conclusion is based on an analysis of the launch plume and trajectory of the missile, as detected by an American military spy satellite. But the American analysis did not pinpoint the precise origin of the missile launch, from which side of the border it was fired, or who actually launched the missile.

Ukrainian officials, who have called the downing a terrorist attack carried out by the separatists, have referred to a different name for the missile, the Buk M1, which the Ukrainian armed forces possess and which may have been purloined by separatist fighters, was possibly responsible.

“The analysts are still trying to get detailed granularity on that,” said one senior Pentagon official. “Those are the million-dollar questions.”

There was also still no indication of motive, though most American analysts have concluded that the missile operators believed they were firing at a Ukrainian military plane, not a civilian jetliner.

At the crash site near the mining town of Grabovo, in rebel-held territory near the Russia border, a dispute was emerging over who seized the plane’s flight recorders, which could shed light on the last moments.

The voice and data-recording devices that had been aboard the Malaysia Airlines plane were said to be missing from the crash site.

Kostyantyn Batozsky, adviser to the Donetsk regional governor, said in a telephone news conference that the aircraft voice and data recording devices had been recovered by workers from the Ukrainian Emergency Services Ministry who had been granted access to the crash site by rebels who control the region surrounding it. But he said he did not know the current location of the devices or who had possession of them.

At the same time, Aleksandr Borodai, the pro-Russian rebel who leads the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, told reporters that his group had the so-called black boxes and intended to turn them over to officials of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which will be assisting in securing the scene. Mr. Borodai said that Dutch and Malaysian officials had informally asked his group to leave the debris and bodies untouched.

Fighting in eastern Ukraine between the Ukrainian military and pro-Russian separatists has been marked by the successful use of missiles against aircraft at higher and higher altitudes.

nyt_mh17_ukraine_2014-07-18.jpg


Russia’s Defense Ministry, in denying any responsibility, noted that units of the Ukrainian Army possessed the Buk M1 air defense missile launchers that has been mentioned as the possible weapon that felled the jetliner. Much of the speculation surrounding the crash has focused on that system, particularly since the pro-Russian separatist forces in eastern Ukraine bragged on social media in late June that they had taken possession of a Buk system after capturing a Ukrainian military base.

The crash remained the subject of intense debate in Grabovo, as residents tried to come to grips with what had unfolded in the fields where they work, just yards from their homes.

SNIP

Four rebels in fatigues were wandering through the ruins, looking through people’s belongings and riffling through guidebooks and bags. When asked who was responsible for the crash, they looked incredulous and said that it had of course been the Ukrainian military.

“This wasn’t ours,” said a rebel who identified himself only as Alexei, standing looking at an overhead bin in the grass with a rifle over his shoulder. “Why would we do this? We’re not animals.”

SNIP

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