P.I.E. and Magpie docs

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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:57 pm

AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:06 am wrote:The appointment of Butler-Sloss is a bloody insult and an absolute joke. Is there anyone outside of the current political establishment who thinks otherwise? Apart from Nigel Havers obviously.

Can't wait to see the full panel. The way things are going it'll be made up of David Aaronovitch, Richard Webster, and Lord Hutton, with Freddy Patel on standby to assess any forensic evidence.


Whistleblower and former Conservative party activist Anthony Gilberthorpe says he provided child prostitutes for a sex and drugs party with top politicians

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... witterfeed


Dependably on cue:

via Twitter:
-----
David Aaronovitch ‏@DAaronovitch

Everything about the Mirror story cries "fantasist" including the fact that everyone named is dead and cannot defend themselves.


... which of course never prevented DA from declaring the 9/11 and 7/7 "culprits" instantly posthumously guilty without any hint of a trial, or a serious investigation, or a single eyewitness to their alleged crimes.
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby zangtang » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:52 pm

for dependable/predictable - and depressing in equal measure, try a piece by some standby lickspittle in the Telegraph called Charles Moore - I could barely read it w/o overheating......

its called 'What the Dickens? These abuse inquiries are just syptoms of fear'

bias, 're-framing', omission, obfuscation - and manages what used to be called a 'hatchet job' on both Geoffrey Dickens and Tom Watson.

Thought I could actually hear the editor threatening him to put the Kibosh on the whole issue by sundown !
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby zangtang » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:01 pm

here we go - daily telegraph, sat July 12....n.b. this 1 day before, i believe, Gilberthorpe (?) comes out saying he provided boys and drugs (i think, havent got round to him yet) :-



Here are some things we do not know about the “historic” child abuse accusations that are causing such concern.

We do not know who was accused by the late Geoffrey Dickens MP. We do not know for certain if anyone Dickens accused in private was a public figure. Except in the case of the named accusations he made in the House of Commons under parliamentary privilege, we do not know what he accused anyone of. We do not know whether the accusations he made were already known to police by other means, and therefore added nothing. Nor do we know what happened to whatever he passed to Leon Brittan and subsequent Home Secretaries in the 1980s.

That seems quite a lot not to know. What do we know? We know that no one can find the various bits of paper (not a single “dossier”) that Dickens handed over. We know, from a Home Office investigation into itself last year, that it has found 573 files (out of a paper mountain of almost 750,000 files) that make reference to child abuse matters in some form (not related to Dickens). We also know, by the same internal title check that found the 573 files, that the Home Office could not find 114 possibly relevant files. These were probably destroyed, we learn, under the rather sloppy procedures that govern all files.

We also know that Geoffrey Dickens was not always accurate. As the Labour MP, Paul Flynn, pointed out to the Home Affairs Select Committee this week, Dickens made claims about the satanic and occult that were, to put it politely, far-fetched. In 1986, Dickens also named in the House a consultant anaesthetist who, he said, had raped an eight-year-old girl. The Director of Public Prosecutions had already decided that no prosecution of this case could succeed, because of the lack of evidence. But after Dickens had named the consultant, the Sun newspaper paid for him to be prosecuted privately. The anaesthetist was acquitted. This innocent man says today that Dickens never spoke to him or sought any evidence from him before making his false accusation: it was “an awful period of my life”.

Having been a journalist in Parliament in the Eighties, I remember Geoffrey Dickens. He was a “rentaquote” – a man who could be relied on to say something noisy on almost any subject and thus boost one’s rather feeble stories. He was also the sort who would say controversial things in Parliament if prompted with “information” from our trade. We therefore treated him without our usual harsh censure when he admitted his first mistress, with whom he attended thés dansants, and when his second mistress was subsequently revealed. The late, great Frank Johnson, parliamentary sketch-writer for this paper, described him as “the second most famous Dickens in English comedy”. Dickens was not an expert on child abuse. Indeed, he was so unused to the word “paedophile” that he said “fidopile” in his speeches. Without wanting to be unkind, I would say he did not know very much about very much.

On this balance of what we know and don’t know, and on the record of Geoffrey Dickens, does it make sense to have two new inquiries (on top of an earlier one)? Is there any earthly reason why – with no new evidence of what they actually were – we should start hunting for the Dickens claims again? For how many years does the government have to look for the needle in the (partly destroyed) haystack when we have no factual reason for thinking that the needle may be worth finding?

The Home Secretary, Theresa May, who announced the inquiries this week, speaks of the need for the “complete confidence” of the public. But, by caving in to demands for more inquiries without clear reason, she reveals her own, infectious lack of confidence. She has brought in the head of the NSPCC – a body no more impartial in these matters than is the RSPCA about farming – to interrogate her own people.

Then there is Mrs May’s wider-ranging inquiry into just about everything that public and non-state bodies have ever done about child abuse accusations. No sooner had she appointed Lady Butler-Sloss as its chairman on Wednesday than there were howls that this would mean a cover-up of a cover-up.

Lady Butler-Sloss has every sort of relevant qualification. She chaired the inquiry into the false diagnoses of child abuse made by doctors in Cleveland in the late Eighties, for example. But it was “revealed” that she is also the sister of the late Sir Michael Havers, who was Attorney-General in the Eighties. According to the MP Simon Danczuk, one of activists in the field, “She’s part of the establishment and that raises concerns.” So reverential are we made to feel towards those who campaign in the name of abused children that no one pointed out that Lady Butler-Sloss is not chairing the Dickens/1980s inquiry and so this charge against her is irrelevant as well as silly. No one ventured to say that her “establishment” knowledge of how public bodies actually work might be an advantage when investigating them.

The essential message behind Mrs May’s decision is, “Help! I’m frightened.” There is such a mood got up about child abuse that no one in authority dare question any complaint. On Radio 4 news on Wednesday evening, I heard the BBC reporter solemnly intone that “one man who alleged he was the victim of abuse in a care home says the appointment [of Lady Butler-Sloss] shows a complete lack of empathy”. This man was not named, nor was the care home; his claim of abuse was not described or proved; his opinion of Lady B-S may be of no value. And yet, in this climate, who dares resist? Perhaps Mrs May congratulates herself on having escaped censure this time. But her critics will be back: they can smell her fear.

So what is all this about? I do not believe that it is really about child abuse, although shocking institutional failures to prevent or catch abusers in schools, hospitals, children’s homes, the BBC and so on certainly make things worse.

First, and less important, it is about the coming general election. It should not escape notice that Mr Danczuk is a Labour MP whose particular skill is beating Liberals. Tom Watson, one of the great self-appointed commanders in the children’s crusade, is a well-known Labour attack-dog against the Tories. Labour love a narrative of an evil past in which Margaret Thatcher “tore the heart out of communities” and “threw millions on the scrapheap”. If they can persuade people that her cronies were a gang of sex criminals, they will be able to terrify David Cameron’s Conservatives away from policies that made her win all the elections she contested. Paedophile accusations give them good cover because they do not sound party political.

The second, much more important reason why we are plunged into yet more inquiries is a wider breakdown of trust in those who govern us. (This is just as much a problem for Labour as for the other two main parties.) It relates to disillusionment because of the credit crunch, the expenses scandal, and the shift of power to the European Union. We think we hate what we call a powerful elite, but what we really despise is a weak one. Once trust is lost, a naive cynicism sets in. Anyone in authority is automatically disbelieved. The desperate official reaction is to create inquiry after inquiry, and even inquiries into inquiries, babbling about “transparency” and praying that the news cycle will shift to something else.

Cumulatively, such a process means that government becomes impossible. We are not far from that point.
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby coffin_dodger » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:44 pm

from Mac's Daily Mirror link:
Others said to be present at the parties included Keith Joseph, Rhodes Boyson, Dr Alistair Smith and Michael Havers


That wouldn't be Attorney General Michael Havers, the man who would ultimately have had the files passed across his desk during the 1980's, would it? You know, those files that were 'lost'? And he wouldn't be the brother of Lady Butler-Scloss, the woman currently tasked with looking in to all this, by Cameron, would he? You know, that Lady Butler-Schloss, who headed up the enquiry into Princess Diana's not at-all-suspicious death and found no foul play? Never!
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby cptmarginal » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:50 pm

Mr Gilberthorpe, now 52, says he also attended a sex party at the Grand Hotel in Brighton during the Conservatives’ 1984 conference.

On the night before the seafront hotel was hit by an IRA bomb attack, he claims he saw senior MPs engaging in sex acts with boys below the age of consent at a “corridor party” held in a row of rooms on the fourth floor.

He said: “There were two guys on the door at the end of the corridor and because we were in the group I was allowed to enter. Several doors were left open and others were closed.

“There were several men walking from one room to another and enjoying sex acts with other naked men, including boys who were clearly only about 15 or 16 years old. I saw Keith Joseph there and a politician who is now still a serving MP.

“It was held on the night before the bomb went off and afterwards one MP crudely joked that it was a good job it was, or there would have been rent boys falling through the floor.”

Mr Gilberthorpe, who decided to finally break his silence because he fears an Establishment cover-up, also claims that in the aftermath of the bombing, in which five people were killed, he was asked to look after two rent boys.

He said: “I rushed over there from my hotel after I heard the blast and saw Keith Joseph stood outside in a blanket.”


WTF
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:05 pm

It relates to disillusionment because of the credit crunch, the expenses scandal, and the shift of power to the European Union.

We think we hate what we call a powerful elite, but what we really despise is a weak one.


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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:21 pm

MacCruiskeen » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:57 pm wrote:Dependably on cue:

via Twitter:
-----
David Aaronovitch ‏@DAaronovitch

Everything about the Mirror story cries "fantasist" including the fact that everyone named is dead and cannot defend themselves.


... which of course never prevented DA from declaring the 9/11 and 7/7 "culprits" instantly posthumously guilty without any hint of a trial, or a serious investigation, or a single eyewitness to their alleged crimes.


Aye, but they found that guy's passport in the street, didn;t they? It was ejected through an inferno that apparently melted steel, but it still had his name and picture in it. What more proof do you need?

Aarono is just a conspiracy theorist for the government. He thinks the ex-care home boys all got together as a group and conspired to libel prominent individuals whom he distantly admires, and a system which he loyally serves, in search of uncertain and highly unlikely compensation monies.

Even though these guys had very little chance of ever winning their cases and receiving any monetary reward at all, and also had to bring great risk and personal humiliation upon themselves to come forward as victims, Aaronovitch just has to see them as the original instigators and the guilty parties in this whole affair - or else his world falls apart.

Same goes for 7/7, 9/11, David Kelly, and every other suspect event that he has pointlessly toyed around with over the years. I used to think he was MI5. I no longer credit him with that much intelligence.
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby semper occultus » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:27 am

AhabsOtherLeg » 13 Jul 2014 15:06 wrote:The appointment of Butler-Sloss is a bloody insult and an absolute joke. Is there anyone outside of the current political establishment who thinks otherwise? Apart from Nigel Havers obviously.

Can't wait to see the full panel. The way things are going it'll be made up of David Aaronovitch, Richard Webster, and Lord Hutton, with Freddy Patel on standby to assess any forensic evidence.



....Richad Webster will have to dial in by ouija board though...Aaronovicth may be able to channel him however....

....thanks for correcting & inmproving upon my earlier point re the gun to the head thing...
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby semper occultus » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:29 am

....the former rent-a-quote MP Jerry Hayes ..the thinking man's Aaronovitch doth damn with faint criticism....


Number 10 needs to get a grip on the Dickens dossier disappearance before this turns into a political scandal
5 Jul 2014 at 13:35

http://jerryhayes.co.uk/posts/2014/07/05/number-10-needs-to-get-a-grip-on-the-dickens-dossier-disappearance-before-this-turns-into-a-political-scandal

I have been wracking my brains to recall what we knew and what we suspected about Parliamentarians being involved in paedophilia during my time in the Commons as an MP and a journalist between 1983 and 2002. The terrible realisation is that the answer is precious little. Despite Fleet Street and Parliament being a rumour mill there was a lot chat, very little detail and no tangible proof. We all knew who was gay, who was bisexual and who was shagging whom, gay or straight with innumerable perverse permutations to spice it all up. Our tribunes are not much different from anybody else except that they have more opportunities to get up to naughties.

Of course we knew about the mortuary exploits of Jimmy Savile and his penchant for amputees. But we had no proof. We knew about Cyril Smith, various peers, senior people within Number 10, but again, no proof. And despite all my years of propping up bars and sifting the most bizarre gossip about the sexual practices of various Home Office ministers, usually served up by vindictive Police Federation whispers, most of the stuff was fairly flaky. My favourite piece of nonsense was about a senior labour Cabinet Minister who was unable to reach orgasm unless he stabbed young bunnies in a shoe box by the bed.

And many of us watched, as was our duty, grainy footage of some unidentifiable old boy, grunting over what was said to be an underage boy.

We were told it was a well known grandee. It could have been anyone. And the well known rumour that a very senior Labour figure was having sex with underaged boys in car parks, cautioned by the police and the paperwork destroyed, was pure malicious fantasy. The only evidence that seemed to stack was about Cyril Smith; but not enough to safely print.

But there was absolutely no gossip that I can remember about a paedophile ring in the heart of government. This doesn’t mean that there wasn’t one. It’s just that child sex offenders are the most manipulative and deceitful of criminals. They are chameleons, genetic freaks blending into a world of normality, so that they can pounce un-noticed. They are nearly always people you would not suspect. Pillars of the community, God fearing churchgoers, professional men; those of power and influence. Their very respectability gives them an impunity. Stewart Hall? You must be joking. Rolf Harris? Are you out of your mind?

So those with the deepest, darkest and sickest secrets are masters of the art of deception. It is the only way they can survive. Unless they are foolish enough to leave a paper trail they are almost impossible to track down. And they are skilled in the art of camouflage.

I am genuinely mystified at what happened to Geoffrey Dickens’ dossier in 1983 when he handed to Home Secretary Leon Brittan. I knew Dickens very well. He was a fearless campaigner for the protection of children. But the loveable old boy was never seen as a serious figure by the establishment. Was his dossier a rehash of flaky unprovable gossip or was it something more substantial? My instincts is that it was the latter as some information was sent to the DPP for consideration. Although that appears to have been lost too. But there must be a paper trail. And what of the law officers? If there was a degree of sensitivity due to allegations about public figures I would be amazed if they were not asked for advice. Another paper trail.

And who was the Attorney General? Sir Michael Havers. A man so utterly straight and independent minded that he threatened to send the police into Number 10 unless Thatcher cooperated over the leaking of papers in the Westland scandal. And who was his Solicitor General? Sir Patrick Mayhew. Another fearless independent minded man. If these men had suspected a cover up which could interfere in the course of justice they would have resigned and brought down the government. And their are some interesting coincidences. Mayhew was Minister of State at the Home office until June 1983 and Leon Brittan was the Trade Secretary at the centre of the Westland affair.

I popped onto the terrace on Wednesday and spoke to some senior journalists whose judgement I take seriously. They are beginning to think that there is a corker of a story here. All the more reason for David Cameron to order a swift judge led inquiry to pull the loose ends together. We need to know the following.
What action and by whom was taken over this dossier.
What was the protocol for the storing of documents.
How could it have gone missing.
What letters were written to Dickens.
What do the minutes of meetings about the dossier contain.
What was sent to the DPP and what action was taken.
What do the departmental minutes contain.
What action was taken over burglaries at Geoffrey Dickens’ London and constituency homes.
Do the police reports still exist.

Number 10 has got to get a grip on this quickly. The appointment of a civil servant to look into this has all the fingerprints of Jeremy Haywood. This is either going to be a massive political story with groundbreaking consequences or it will be a pathetic tale of complacency and cock up. Whatever it turns out to be this is a time for speed and transparency. Something went horribly wrong in 1983. The public must be told which it was, no matter how embarrassing to the then administration.

Norman Tebbit, keeper of the flame of St Margaret, appreciates the need for a full and frank and speedy investigation. I hope that David Cameron realises how big this will become.

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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:02 pm

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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby cptmarginal » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:33 am

AhabsOtherLeg » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:04 am wrote:
14. Geoffrey Prime


Agent for GCHQ, who used his secret service skills to maintain a detailed database on the schedules of local children : http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/BUGGER


Just wanted to add here that the Geoffrey Prime story is really mind-boggling to me. I somehow missed that Adam Curtis post the first time around (despite reading the ones above and below it on his blog) and came across it again the other day via this.

The case that really shocked Mrs Thatcher was the traitor Geoffrey Prime. In the 1970s he had worked at the top secret listening centre GCHQ and had been selling all it's secrets to the Russians.

And yet again it wasn't MI5 who uncovered his treachery - it was the local police in Cheltenham.

In 1982 a policeman came to his house enquiring about his car - a rather distinct two-tone brown and white Mk IV Cortina - a which had been seen in the vicinity of an assault on a young girl.

Prime told the policeman that he had been at home all day. But that evening he and his wife Rhona went for a drive to the top of Cleeve Hill. As they sat in the twilight Prime told Rhona that he was the man the police were looking for. And not only that, he was also a Russian spy.

[...]

Prime was a paedophile - and had used spying techniques to monitor the activities of thousands of young girls around Cheltenham. He had created a vast set of index cards which showed when the girls were most likely to be alone at home. He then went round to their houses in his two tone Cortina and sexually assaulted them.

Despite this Prime had been positively vetted six times.

Even the Russians got worried about his paedophile activities and seemed to want to dump him. In 1980 Prime had gone to Vienna to meet the KGB. Instead of meeting him secretly as they normally did, the Russians took him openly to the best restaurants where they knew Western intelligence agents would recognise them as KGB agents.

But even then noone noticed them - or Prime.

Prime's wife Rhona wrestled with her conscience - and in the end went to the police and told them everything about Prime. He was sent to jail for 35 years for spying and 3 years for the assaults on young girls - which says a lot about the priorities of the British establishment at that time.


"positively vetted six times" - Coco the clown, back on the case...
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:10 am

Geoffrey Prime, more than Jimmy's escapades, is what got me focused on this story/network.

UK intelligence was up to something uniquely horrible and disturbed.

It's a strong, strong argument for overthrowing Royal Families ASAP.
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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby smoking since 1879 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:17 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:10 pm wrote:Geoffrey Prime, more than Jimmy's escapades, is what got me focused on this story/network.

UK intelligence was up to something uniquely horrible and disturbed.

It's a strong, strong argument for overthrowing Royal Families ASAP.



"...was up to something..." ? Seriously? what makes you think they stopped?

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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:20 pm

semper occultus » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:51 am wrote:...there have been 2 or 3 stories on police investigations being aborted...


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Re: P.I.E. and Magpie docs

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:02 am

Wombaticus Rex » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:10 pm wrote:Geoffrey Prime, more than Jimmy's escapades, is what got me focused on this story/network.

UK intelligence was up to something uniquely horrible and disturbed.

It's a strong, strong argument for overthrowing Royal Families ASAP.


Snowden commented in one of his interviews about how one of the 'perks' of working in the NSA was seen as being the ability to use the system for your own amusement / entertainment / needs of one's friends. Given that Prime was creating a massive on-going children tracking database on several thousand 3x5 index cards at a time before Microsoft Office, I predict that child abusers within the NSA and or GCHQ ecosystem have the ability to use the system for their own ends - and are performing massive data collection, storage and tracking of children both within the country and in / out of the country.

I am reminded of the old Inslaw Promis system which was reframed as an ability to track "everything associated with one person". There has been a massive trend in both education and medicine towards quantification (John Taylor Gatto territory and bioinformatics respectively). Massive amounts of personal medical information from the NHS Spine project went err... missing. If the average level of school IT system security is a function of the comments one reads in The Register, the education system may as well have a "Vacuum all our personal data by clicking the revolving '@' link here -->"

(NSA + GCHQ data megacollection) * (Promis descendent systems integration functionality)
= TKA = Total Kids Awareness = tracking of all attributes of all kids in real time.
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