Iamwhomiam » Sat May 03, 2014 3:22 am wrote:I'll write more later. I just lost a monster of a post and I need to get some sleep. Rats! I must have hit a control key or sumpin. gone! Later.
Who am I to refrain from hate speech? I HATE THAT!
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by 82_28 » Sat May 03, 2014 8:55 am
Iamwhomiam » Sat May 03, 2014 3:22 am wrote:I'll write more later. I just lost a monster of a post and I need to get some sleep. Rats! I must have hit a control key or sumpin. gone! Later.
by Hunter » Sat May 03, 2014 9:07 am
Rory » Fri May 02, 2014 1:32 pm wrote:Yeah, it's definitely provocateurs and not that these heavily armed, angry, paranoid, racist and stupid men are cooped up together in a situation where they are amped up and itching for a fight that hasn't happened. And of course, alcohol and testosterone always need the catalyst of cointelpro to make conflict occur.
I'm sure at least half the fuckwits could be trusted to start a fight in an empty room
by justdrew » Sat May 03, 2014 1:34 pm
by Hunter » Sat May 03, 2014 1:42 pm
justdrew » Sat May 03, 2014 1:34 pm wrote:splintering would also be a normal result of normal social dynamics though
by justdrew » Sat May 03, 2014 2:24 pm
Hunter » 03 May 2014 09:42 wrote:justdrew » Sat May 03, 2014 1:34 pm wrote:splintering would also be a normal result of normal social dynamics though
Certainly but do you really think the feds have no undercover presence in that camp? Whether they are actively trying to splinter them or not I think it is a safe bet they do have a presence in that group, there is no possible way IMO that they do not, if for anything just to keep an eye on these armed yahoos and make sure nothing crazy happens. Somehow, someway there are informants or agents in that group. That is really my only point but I simply added that they might, instead of an armed stand off with them decide to take them out another way, by spreading disinfo among them and splintering and weakening them.
I dont know, nobody knows, it is just my take on the situation, IMO there is no possible way the feds do not have some sort of presence at Bundy ranch right now inside that patriot camp either actively working these guys or just gathering intell on them. But the reason I believe they do have a presence is because it would be so simple to have one, these are people from all over, none of them know eachother, anyone could have driven up and joined the cause. It is not like they are trying to infiltrate an aryan brotherhood closed compound, this is an easy in and when you have an easy in, involving armed and dangerous yahoos like this, you take it and you gather what intell you can from it.
BLM may have walked away for reasons I stated above but they did not just leave these armed thugs to their own devices, they are still very much on top of it and keeping a close eye on them, very likely from within sitting right next to the head yahoo at the evening campfire.
by Hunter » Sat May 03, 2014 3:17 pm
by Hunter » Sat May 03, 2014 3:45 pm
by IanEye » Sat May 03, 2014 11:23 pm
by Nordic » Tue May 06, 2014 3:56 pm
by seemslikeadream » Fri May 09, 2014 2:16 pm
Context Matters: The Cliven Bundy Standoff -- Part 3
Comment Now Follow Comments
This is the third in a series of articles. Part 1 can be read here. Part 2 is here.
______________
On Friday, three of Cliven Bundy’s sons, two of his sisters, and seventeen supporters filed Criminal Reports with the Clark County Sheriff’s Office in Las Vegas, Nevada. Their list of complaints was extensive:
Men blocking access to public land
Men blocking public roads
Men harassing people for taking photos
Men impersonating Police officers
Men claiming to be a police officer and refusing to show valid identification
Men threatening to use Tasers
Men threatening to fire upon unarmed civilians
Men using attack dogs
Men pointing weapons
Assault
We believe that the BLM men who pointed guns at over 1,000 people on April 12th near the I-15 freeway south of Mesquite committed a criminal act and that the Clark County Sheriffs [sic] office should be required to investigate. Source: Bundy Website, May 1, 2014
Despite the obvious irony of these complaints being levied by a group that dresses in paramilitary uniforms, sets up illegal checkpoints on public roads, aims their many weapons at both law enforcement and civilian contractors, and threatens to bomb and kill people at local businesses, there’s something even more sinister behind these Criminal Reports.
There is an implied “or else” in these demands to the local Sheriff to do their bidding.
Cliven Bundy orders the Sheriff to disarm the Bureau of Land Management. Militia members stand guard. April 12, 2014 (AP Photo/Las Vegas Review-Journal, Jason Bean)
The County Sheriff
For years, Cliven Bundy has been demanding that Clark County Sheriff Gillespie protect his cattle from the Bureau of Land Management, the Department of the Interior agency tasked with managing federal land. Like most Sovereigns, Bundy believes that the County Sheriff is the most powerful law enforcement officer in the entire country, with unlimited authority that trumps that of any federal agent, elected official, local police officer, or perceived enemy.
Bundy routinely invokes the U.S. Constitution when making these claims. The phrases “We the People” from the Preamble, and “life, liberty, and property” from the 14th Amendment are usually present.
“Where our problem is is right here at home. I wonder where our Clark County Sheriff Douglas Gillespie’s been … He is the man that has constitutional jurisdiction and authority, he has policing power here in Clark County, Nevada, and he has arresting power, so we elected him and we pay him, what do we pay him to do? Don’t we pay him to protect our life, liberty and property?” Source: Moapa Valley Town Hall Meeting, April 9, 2014
The 14th Amendment, which guaranteed state and federal citizenship for freed slaves after the Civil War, holds a special place in Sovereign mythology. They claim that the Amendment covertly introduced a new type of citizen – the U.S. citizen – when only state citizenship existed prior to the Amendment. The federal government then tricked Americans into this structure by having them enter into contracts such as licenses, permits, birth certificates, and so on. Traces of these theories can be found sprinkled throughout Bundy’s statements.
“I have no contract with the federal government so this whole thing shouldn’t be controlled by a federal court.” Source: Moapa Valley Progress, March 19, 2014
In the hours after the BLM walked away from their efforts to round up the trespass cattle on April 12th, Bundy ordered Sheriff Gillespie to confront the federal agents:
“Sheriff, this is what We the People are asking this morning. Disarm the Park Service at Lake Mead and Red Rock Park and all other parks where the federal government claims they have jurisdiction over … We want those arms delivered right here under these flags in one hour.” Source: KLAS-TV Las Vegas, April 15, 2014
By Monday, Bundy announced that the order applied to all sheriffs around the country. They were all tasked with disarming federal agents. A few days later, he expressed disappointment that his sheriff didn’t comply.
“My Clark County Sheriff, Doug Gillespie, didn’t finish his job. What the mandate from We the People was, Saturday, was to disarm the Park Service and BLM. And when he didn’t do that, and his time was up, then we the people took it into our hands and had to do the sheriff’s job and the governor of Nevada’s job.” Source: Politico, April 14, 2014
Bundy has apparently passed this belief system about the role of the County Sheriff on to his sons:
“Will our sheriff keep his oath this time and use his lawful forces to stop them? Or will the people be left to their own protection?” Ammon Bundy. Source: KSNV-TV NBC, May 2, 2014
“We want the sheriff to go after this criminally. I mean, this is America and we’re not supposed to have foreign forces at us. Number one, these were people that were impersonating an officer to begin with. The County Sheriff is the only person that We the People have allowed to have policing power.” Ryan Bundy. Source: KSNV-TV NBC, May 2, 2014
When questioned about what happens when the Sheriff doesn’t obey, Bundy’s response was vague. “We the People have asked the 3,100 sheriffs across the nation to disarm the bureaucrats. They form the biggest army in the world.” And if they don’t do it? “You have seen during the past weeks what happens when the Sheriff doesn’t comply.”
Without the Sovereign context, all of the various statements from the Bundy family might appear relatively benign. However, based on the history of the movement, Bundy appears to have initiated a process that could end badly for Sheriff Gillespie and the agents of the BLM.
Posse Comitatus
According to the Sovereign concept of Posse Comitatus (“power of the county”), the Sheriff is the highest law enforcement official in the country. It is his job to rein in the illegitimate federal and state governments and protect the citizenry from their tyranny.
If the Sheriff refuses to do this, the Sovereigns assemble a “common law court,” assign themselves as jurors, put him on trial for treason for failing to uphold the Constitution as they read it, and sentence him to death.
“He shall be removed by the Posse to the most populated intersection of streets in the township and at high noon hung by the neck, the body remaining until sundown as an example to those who would subvert the law.” Source: Posse Blue Book, 1972
The Bundy group may simply ignore the Sheriff once he fails to act on their Criminal Reports. The purpose of the forms was to give him notice that they wanted him to arrest the BLM agents involved in the roundup and disarm other BLM employees. Sovereigns believe this notice gives them the justification to arrest and disarm the agents themselves.
“It is the duty of the Sheriff to protect the local citizens from such unlawful acts. Once he has been advised and refuses to perform his lawful duty in respect to the matter, the Posse Comitatus has the lawful right under natural law to act in the Name of the Sheriff to protect local jurisdiction. Since the Second Amendment to the constitution says ‘. . . . the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. . .’, the local Posse Comitatus has the right to bear arms in the execution of the law, any Act of any legislature or directives issued by the Judiciary or Executive notwithstanding. Arrests may be made. The criminal may be remanded to the custody of the County Sheriff for trial by a Citizen Jury impaneled by the Sheriff from citizens of the local jurisdiction. (NOT by the Courts as is current procedure in most counties and which has no basis under law.)” Source: IDENTITY newsletter Vol. 6 No. 2, 1971
The Posse Comitatus movement was a precursor to the modern Sovereign movement, and vestiges of its legal theories and goals have been passed from generation to generation since the 1970s, particularly within farming communities. It was started in the early 1970s in Southern California by a white supremacist reverend named William Potter Gale, who fabricated these legal theories and published them in his IDENTITY newsletter.
Shortly after, a retired dry-cleaning equipment repair man named Henry Beach plagiarized the language, and sold “Posse Comitatus” charter packages. A third man, James Wickstrom, brought the materials and ideas to the farming communities who were, at the time, angry at government and desperate to save their farms from foreclosure during the farming crisis of the early 1980s.
Over the decades, the strong racist and Anti-Semitic language that permeated the original Posse materials was bleached away, but the flawed underlying legal theories persisted.
The Myth of the County Sheriff Today
Recently, William Potter Gale’s theory about the County Sheriff has re-emerged primarily through two groups: the Oathkeepers and the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association.
The former group claims that they have 40,000 members made up of current and retired sheriffs, police officers, and soldiers. This was one of the armed groups that supported the Bundy family during the standoff, but they were kicked off the Ranch by a competing militia last week. The CSPOA is a smaller, more focused group, made up of almost 500 County Sheriffs who believe that they have the power and authority outlined in William Potter Gale’s Posse Comitatus. Retired Sheriff Richard Mack, the man who talked about using women as a human shield, is an active leader in both groups.
Several Sheriffs from the around the nation either pledged their support to Bundy’s cause or showed up in Bunkerville armed and in uniform, to stand with him against the federal government.
Attorney Larry Klayman promotes the use of common law juries, has expressed his support for the Bundy standoff, and has wrapped his call for violent insurrection in patriotic terms:
“Before these government goons do come back, let this message go forth. Barack Hussein Obama, Harry Reid and the gutless Republican establishment leaders in Congress who roll over to and further this continued government tyranny, We the People have now risen up and we intend to remove you legally from office. This country belongs to us, not you. This land is our land! And, we will fight you will all legal means, including exercising our legitimate Second Amendment rights of self-defense, to end your tyranny and restore freedom to our shores!” Source: World Net Daily, April 18, 2014
This rebirth of Posse Comitatus legal theories among law enforcement is extremely problematic in ways that vastly exceed the current situation in Bunkerville, Nevada.
_____________
In Part 4 in this series, I continue my discussion in the various ways that Sovereign beliefs have shaped Bundy’s decisions.
Official: FBI investigating Bundy Ranch showdown
AP 11:59 p.m. EDT May 8, 2014
Authorities are looking into the conduct of people who allegedly pointed guns at officers.
LAS VEGAS (AP) — Clark County sheriff's officials say they've been interviewed by the FBI as part of an investigation into armed supporters of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy.
Assistant Sheriff Joe Lombardo tells KLAS-TV that federal agents are looking into the conduct of people who reportedly pointed guns at officers during a standoff at Bundy's ranch April 12.
The Bureau of Land Management had been rounding up hundreds of Bundy's cattle that it says were trespassing on public land. It says Bundy owes more than $1.1 million in fees and penalties.
The roundup was called off over safety concerns.
Bundy supporters have denied pointing weapons at authorities and say that BLM rangers were the ones pointing guns.
A spokeswoman for the FBI in Las Vegas did not immediately respond to messages seeking comment.
Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
by seemslikeadream » Mon May 12, 2014 7:47 am
Saturday’s Illegal Cliven Bundy-Endorsed ATV Rally Runs Through Sacred American Indian Sites
BY MATT LEE-ASHLEY MAY 10, 2014 AT 1:30 PM UPDATED: MAY 10, 2014 AT 2:47 PM
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An illegal all-terrain vehicle (ATV) ride planned this weekend through Recapture Canyon in Utah is the latest flashpoint between anti-government activists and federal land managers. The illegal ride is already drawing criticism from the Navajo Nation, putting American Indian burial sites and cultural resources at risk, and has even forced the cancellation of a traditional Navajo Warrior welcome home ceremony for veterans.
Yet San Juan County Commissioner Phil Lyman (R-UT) and his supporters appear determined to defy federal law by riding their ATVs through Recapture Canyon, an area of southeast Utah known as a “mini-Mesa Verde” because it contains one of the highest densities of archaeological sites in the country.
Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who has refused to pay more than $1 million in grazing fees he owes U.S. taxpayers, has reportedly urged his supporters -– who include armed militia members –- to join Lyman in Utah this weekend.
“We need to help the people of Blanding re-establish who is in control of the land,” said Bundy and his wife, Carol, in an email that was reported by E&E News. “This is your next stand. Will you be there to help them like you helped us?”
Utah County Commissioner Phil Lyman shares Cliven Bundy’s anti-government views. In his showdown with federal law enforcement officials last month, Bundy made clear he does not recognize the authority of the federal government. “I abide by all of Nevada state laws,” said Bundy, “But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing.”
Like the Bundy confrontation in Nevada, the illegal ATV ride through Recapture Canyon is intended to challenge federal authority over public lands. Lyman, reports the Salt Lake Tribune, “says the planned ride aims to assert county jurisdiction in the face of federal ‘overreach.’”
The anti-government views of Cliven Bundy and Phil Lyman are also shared by a growing fringe of elected officials who want to sell-off or seize America’s public lands.
According to a new analysis from the Center for American Progress Action Fund, a network of right-wing elected officials, organizations, and prominent commentators share Mr. Bundy’s anti-government views and are advancing proposals to seize or sell-off federal public lands in eight Western states.
This network of so-called ‘Bundy’s Buddies’ includes the Koch-funded organization Americans for Prosperity, U.S. Senator and presidential hopeful Rand Paul (R-KY), Utah Congressman Rob Bishop (R-UT), and Utah State Representative Ken Ivory. Ivory leads the American Lands Council — a group dedicated to advocating for the seizure of federal lands.
A new website from the Center for Western Priorities, BundysBuddies.org, identifies additional elected officials who share the anti-government views of Bundy and Lyman.
Most Westerners reject the anti-government land seizure agenda of the so-called “Bundy’s Buddies.”
Lyman and the other “Bundy’s Buddies” who are working to sell-off or seize America’s public lands are far outside the mainstream of views in the American West.
Public opinion research commissioned by Colorado College in February, 2014, found that nearly three in four Westerners –- and 63 percent of voters in Utah — are less likely to vote for a candidate who wants to sell public lands to reduce the deficit. And more than nine out of ten Western voters view their national forests, monuments, wildlife areas, and public lands as integral to their state’s economy.
In an alert to its members titled “Our Public Lands Are Not for Sale,” Backcountry Hunters and Anglers this week called the land seizure movement a “radical cry” that “should alarm all Americans who cherish their freedom to hunt and fish…. Our federal land system and outdoor heritage is the envy of the world and depends on keeping federal public lands out of state ownership.”
by seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:57 pm
SUNDAY, OCT 19, 2014 10:00 AM CDT
The federal government lost its war against Cliven Bundy
Six months after the standoff in Nevada, officials have failed to issue either an arrest or an indictment
RYAN LENZ, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER
This article was originally published by The Southern Poverty Law Center.
The Southern Poverty Law Center It has been six months since the federal government called off its attempt to round up cattle belonging to Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy amid a tense standoff with heavily armed militiamen who trained their weapons on federal agents.
For weeks prior, the antigovernment right had been portraying a federal court order to remove Bundy’s herd from public lands as a prime example of federal overreach – even though Bundy had refused to pay more than $1 million in accumulated grazing fees and fines because he said he didn’t recognize the government’s legitimacy.
Militias from around the country responded to Bundy’s plight, hoping that in that tiny corner of the desert they could make a stand against the government they see as the enemy. And when the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) abandoned the operation to avoid a bloody shootout, they declared victory.
Government officials promised accountability for those who broke the law by taking up arms against federal agents. It seems unfathomable, in fact, that the U.S. Department of Justice would allow a mob of antigovernment zealots to get away with using the threat of violence to block the enforcement of the law.
But, as the months have dragged on, there has been no response. Not an arrest. Not an indictment. Nothing.
Speaking with National Public Radio a month after the standoff, BLM Director Neil Kornze promised the agency would work through the legal system. “I can’t say a lot because there’s an active investigation going on, but we are working hard to ensure that those who did break the law are held accountable,” Kornze said.
The Clark County, Nevada, Sheriff’s Department has said an investigation is under way, as has the FBI. But as that investigation drags on, militias have turned the Bundy family ranch into an armed compound ready for a ground war with the Feds, and Bundy has gone on the lecture circuit to claim victory against the government.
Just last month, speaking at a gathering billed as “An Evening with Cliven Bundy” in Nevada, the embattled rancher, now a hero to the radical right, again reiterated his defiance and disdain for the federal government.
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“I was really surprised that they would go this far to put their guns down we the people’s throat and try to show the public, the world, the federal government has unlimited power over we the people of the state of Nevada. That isn’t right, and that’s not ever going to happen again in America or in the state of Nevada,” a television station quoted Bundy saying.
Bundy’s confidence has risen no doubt because there have been no consequences for his actions or for those who came to his defense.
What has been equally surprising, however, is just how deeply the Bundy family has become part of the radical fringe since the April 12 standoff.
Bundy abandoned the GOP in favor of the Independent American Party of Nevada, which champions the idea of returning to the gold standard and frequently offers conspiracy theories about the United Nations and its Agenda 21. He has spoken to numerous far-right media outlets, touting his success in turning back the federal government as a victory for what the radical right frequently calls the “cause of liberty.” Members of his family have even become lifetime members of antigovernment groups like the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, former Arizona sheriff Richard Mack’s conspiracy-minded group composed of right-wing sheriffs who promise to keep federal aggressions at bay.
In recent months, Bundy himself has burrowed much deeper into the radical right than that even.
Hatewatch has learned that Bundy, alongside Mack, participated in a conference call with the Republic for the united States of America (RuSA), a “sovereign citizen” group whose members believe the federal government is an illegal corporation designed to enslave citizens. Its members have been involved in violent interactions with police, run-ins with the Internal Revenue Service and widespread harassment of law enforcement.
As the Southern Poverty Law Center reported this summer, the government’s slow response and apparent reluctance or inability to hold Bundy accountable led to more potentially violent, antigovernment confrontations in Utah, Texas, Idaho, New Mexico and elsewhere.
And, in a July report, the Department of Homeland Security described a recent spike in antigovernment violence and noted that the “perceived success” of militias at the Bundy ranch “likely will embolden other militia extremists and like-minded lone offenders to attempt to replicate these confrontational tactics and force future armed standoffs.”
The truth of the matter is that until there is action holding those who broke the law accountable, it is likely that the current wave of antigovernment extremism will only continue to pick up speed.
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