Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:25 pm

tapitsbo raises some important points to consider whenever trying to frame this and define the elements properly. Deep politics is everything that's denied or concealed, and often involves the formal state. Example: the rationale for the Iraq invasion of 2003, as opposed to the official narrative which is still taken seriously even by liberal critics who frame it as an adventure undertaken on the basis of a mistake. This is the truth behind the "vanguard of lies" that protects it, in words that Rumsfeld borrowed from Churchill.

Deep state in the U.S. is, roughly, "the industry that hollows out the official state," the combination of the security and power agencies with their contractors and clients, the MIC or National Security state. Deep state elsewhere may have a different form, or even a kind of single core, as is much easier to imagine with smaller countries that have more clearly defined roles in the geopolitics, like Turkey.

The "purely conjectural networks" (many of them not at all conjectural) ensconce themselves within such structures and extend into many others, seeking to effect given missions or just engage in parapolitical plunder. This generally is parapolitical action (what people conventionally call conspiracies and cabals, though I prefer to think of them as operations if they are one-time - generally illegal - or "clubs," which is what they called it in the case of the Safari Club).

Usefully, we can also define the classes to which these structures are accessible and among whom these practices come most often into play as a relatively concentrated power elite that draws from the national security state apparatus, the moneyed "Overworld," the corporate management and relevant sections of the governmental policy apparatus, and the upper reaches of the political classes.

What unites these sectors into a single subject that can be called "deep" is, above all, the element of secrecy. There is a great leveraging and concentration of power that comes from being able to act in secret, to have secret policy and planning, to have freedom from political oversight, to conceal or classify information, to expect open access to others' information, to compartmentalize, to declare knowledge proprietary, to access and development proprietary and secret technological systems, to break law on the basis of a higher justification, to practice deceptions on the public, to determine without an open process what the acceptable risks and costs of collateral damage or even direct sacrifices may be, in many cases even to determine states of exception on the authority of a limited group and in secret, etc. etc. These are powers, once they exist, to which people with the following various qualities of mind (among others) will naturally gravitate: ruthlessness, greed, desire for power and control, self-certainty, absolute faith in a given mission. It's like an invitation to crime. (So is the state itself, libertarians would argue. So is any concentrated organizational power, anarchists would argue.)

And, second, the justifications of national security: self-defense, preemptive self-defense, preventive or eventually assumed self-defense, response to enemy action, assumption that evil and unscrupulous enemies are acting in the same fashion without limits and must be counteracted by any means necessary.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:41 pm

Interesting intersection between secrecy and absolutism that you point out there!

It's easy to be fascinated by groups and phenomena that are openly acknowledged but rarely discussed. Hardly secret, but not exactly overworld.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:50 pm

Overworld is Scott's clever way of describing parapolitical engagements of the upper Wall Street set. As opposed to underworld, see?
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:14 pm

I read my way through those parts of some of his books and was impressed by them. I get the impression that there's still a lot of groups on the record, just in the history of the last century for instance, that aren't widely acknowledged but aren't secret. I'm thinking for example of a lot of the organizations discussed on this board for instance that are like bridges between the official establishment and secret, off-the record stuff (things like BCCI for sure count but there's also the whole layer of for instance occult groups which operate as open secrets, being open about the fact that they're hiding things, which I guess applies to the government as well). I think I'm looking for a good term for this layer.

Deep state definitely makes sense for things like Gladio, what would you call groups the various "military orders" for example that are open about existing but are rarely focused on in mainstream accounts of history? I guess even a lot of war crimes, etc. have functioned on the level of open secrets... widely known but not acknowledged.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:19 pm

as opposed to realms like UFOs where there may be a widely disseminated understanding about disinformation efforts (this itself had to be figured out slowly and was originally much more secret) but as far as the actual phenomena there seems to be much much less certainty about what's going on... like in this case the knowledge that something is going on is pretty widespread but there are way fewer/harder to find clues
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:26 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:14 pm wrote:I read my way through those parts of some of his books and was impressed by them. I get the impression that there's still a lot of groups on the record, just in the history of the last century for instance, that aren't widely acknowledged but aren't secret. I'm thinking for example of a lot of the organizations discussed on this board for instance that are like bridges between the official establishment and secret, off-the record stuff (things like BCCI for sure count but there's also the whole layer of for instance occult groups which operate as open secrets, being open about the fact that they're hiding things, which I guess applies to the government as well). I think I'm looking for a good term for this layer.

Deep state definitely makes sense for things like Gladio, what would you call groups the various "military orders" for example that are open about existing but are rarely focused on in mainstream accounts of history?


I agree that a great deal is "open about existing" and about "the fact that they're hiding things," and this is actually the biggest part of the beast we're trying to describe here. (It's needlessly mystified by the terminology of "conspiracy," which serves the classic "CT" merchandisers and true believers, on the one hand, and an entire propaganda system in which everything other than shallow PR is supposed to be denigrated as "CT," on the other.)

I don't think there's an easy solution for how to categorize every instance in the grey areas, other than to do your best to nail down details while avoiding mystification and also avoiding the temptation to just fill in the gaps with your own shit (though some speculation is automatic, like "dark matter" in the reigning cosmological paradigm it can be seen to exist although it is not actually seen). There are all kinds of things that in a sense exist some of the time (the CIA does this or that "good" thing today, or admitted doing something bad 30 years ago) but at other times are supposed to be invisible. It's a kind of enforced psychological highwire act.

The rough divisions as above will have to do for now. Deep politics for real functional policy aims as opposed to what the PR says. (See O.I.L. vs. O.I.F.) Deep state for "Top Secret America," the power agencies, MIC contractors and national security state that command the tools of secret policy and secret action but do have a bulk line item on the federal budget, also for the secret courts, secret laws, secret interpretations of law, etc. etc. Parapolitics for the networks that work within these structures in pursuit of their own crazy missions or their own acts of piracy and plunder for personal profit. Overworld for the rich private elements and corporate powers entangled in these networks, or reaching into them from above, or receiving the ultimate benefits of "deep" actions. Through the many cases we can document, presumably hundreds of possible organizational models that have been employed or arise organically in different cases. (Sometimes emphasizing plausible deniability, sometimes in your face, sometimes using mutual blackmail, etc.)

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby bluenoseclaret » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:33 pm

What about "Deep Influence...or Deep Control"

Has Israel committed war crimes in Gaza?

"The UN launches an investigation into Israel's ongoing assault on the Gaza Strip. Twenty-nine of the UN Human Rights Council's 47 members voted in favour of creating a commission of inquiry to look at possible war crimes committed by Israel. Only the United States voted against the resolution, while 17 states abstained, 10 of them European."


youtube video


http://youtu.be/T53XXKoEU-c
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:12 pm

JackRiddler, I was looking for insights like yours, thanks for responding as I know I need to work on expressing myself. I guess one thing I've noticed is where the mystification derails the ability to put together coherent narratives about this stuff - "it's impossible to know for certain what's going on". Of course, in the big picture this is true, but what is more urgent and relevant is developing the connections between the information that is known to a high degree of certainty. The specific history and connections that are deserving of attention and dissemination

The doublethink, selective silence/acknowledgement or high-wire psychological act you refer to fascinates me because it can't really be opposed to any sort of absolute or comprehensive disclosure, openness or consensus. History is an organic development of hundreds of different organizational models - the fact that these issues relate to such all-encompassing aspects of the human condition (like the doublethink part) makes the need to focus on specific examples all the more justified...
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby Ben D » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:20 pm

Non interpreted reality, ie. actual reality, is always on the other side of the multitudes of conceptual perceptions and interpretations that people think, imagine, write, or read of. Until the individual understands this, they will generally be under the mistaken belief that mental interpretation of historical reality somehow is the same thing as actual historical reality. This is zen stuff for sure...but unless one understands the tool that is being used to realize truth...ie. the mind...any mental processing of the apparent external reality will produce error proportionate to the lack of 'self' understanding.

The elusive truth everyone would like to know can't be realized by a mind that processes perception in a dualistic manner, ie. perceiver and perceived, thinker and that thought..for the mental separation of what is in fact one reality introduces biases of time, place, family, race, culture, etc., due to mental conditioning. However when the mind is quiescent and free from thought, there is perception without a perceiver, seeing without a seer, hearing without a hearer.

Still, few there are who are prepared to do the hard work to discipline their mind, and hence we have a babylonian situation whereby most everyone is clamoring to have their own view heard over the cacophany of other interpretations. In the meantime, reality is still always reality...glorious beyond understanding for those who respect absolute truth.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby alan ford » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:54 am

Ben D » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:20 pm wrote:Non interpreted reality, ie. actual reality, is always on the other side of the multitudes of conceptual perceptions and interpretations that people think, imagine, write, or read of. Until the individual understands this, they will generally be under the mistaken belief that mental interpretation of historical reality somehow is the same thing as actual historical reality. This is zen stuff for sure...but unless one understands the tool that is being used to realize truth...ie. the mind...any mental processing of the apparent external reality will produce error proportionate to the lack of 'self' understanding.

The elusive truth everyone would like to know can't be realized by a mind that processes perception in a dualistic manner, ie. perceiver and perceived, thinker and that thought..for the mental separation of what is in fact one reality introduces biases of time, place, family, race, culture, etc., due to mental conditioning. However when the mind is quiescent and free from thought, there is perception without a perceiver, seeing without a seer, hearing without a hearer.

Still, few there are who are prepared to do the hard work to discipline their mind, and hence we have a babylonian situation whereby most everyone is clamoring to have their own view heard over the cacophany of other interpretations. In the meantime, reality is still always reality...glorious beyond understanding for those who respect absolute truth.


I agree that reality of sitting and enjoying the sun, for example, is glorious and doesn't need to be spoiled by analyzing what is sun and similar , however for the "understanding" of the things discussed here let's say Deep State I prefer to hear other voices and visions of reality. For the simple reason as you mentioned my vision is limited with bias of my family, race etc etc. therefore I'll benefit to see other visions , that way have more understanding than my bias allows. Wouldn't call it cacophony myself, perhaps jamming. Besides in this particular case of Deep State I would hope that reality of it can be changed so it disappears completely , regardless if its reality was perceived correctly ( unfortunately sort of pesimistic here , I'm afraid it's built so deeply in the patterns of any state that will take long time to extinguish it ) ,
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby Ben D » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:25 am

alan ford » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:54 pm wrote:I agree that reality of sitting and enjoying the sun, for example, is glorious and doesn't need to be spoiled by analyzing what is sun and similar , however for the "understanding" of the things discussed here let's say Deep State I prefer to hear other voices and visions of reality. For the simple reason as you mentioned my vision is limited with bias of my family, race etc etc. therefore I'll benefit to see other visions , that way have more understanding than my bias allows. Wouldn't call it cacophony myself, perhaps jamming. Besides in this particular case of Deep State I would hope that reality of it can be changed so it disappears completely , regardless if its reality was perceived correctly ( unfortunately sort of pesimistic here , I'm afraid it's built so deeply in the patterns of any state that will take long time to extinguish it ) ,

Yes Alan, I hear what you're saying and for the most part agree...detachment and simultaneously staying aware of what others are saying is the ticket. It has been my experience though that in time, it becomes a case of 'heard it all before' and one then is ready for the deeper reflection of life's purpose.

Like the unmoving Tao beyond expression which ironically maintains its harmonious unity due to the never ceasing 'dance' of the apparent inherent complimentary opposite ying and yang energies that constitute it, any enduring government is one based on the cosmic principle of unity in diversity, ie. one that is able to balance the inherent complementary opposite political 'energies' of its constituents. So long a person is politically active on the left or right, they are a compliant, though probably unaware, player of the game....the main risk to any existing governmental system is if and when the balance is lost and one side or the other tries to do away with the opposition....chaos will result until a new order emerges with the balance of complementary opposite political forces facing off....divide and rule!

Still...that's only my opinion based on my present understanding....what would I know!
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:33 am

Ben D » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:20 pm wrote:Non interpreted reality, ie. actual reality, is always on the other side of the multitudes of conceptual perceptions and interpretations that people think, imagine, write, or read of. Until the individual understands this, they will generally be under the mistaken belief that mental interpretation of historical reality somehow is the same thing as actual historical reality. This is zen stuff for sure...but unless one understands the tool that is being used to realize truth...ie. the mind...any mental processing of the apparent external reality will produce error proportionate to the lack of 'self' understanding.

The elusive truth everyone would like to know can't be realized by a mind that processes perception in a dualistic manner, ie. perceiver and perceived, thinker and that thought..for the mental separation of what is in fact one reality introduces biases of time, place, family, race, culture, etc., due to mental conditioning. However when the mind is quiescent and free from thought, there is perception without a perceiver, seeing without a seer, hearing without a hearer.

Still, few there are who are prepared to do the hard work to discipline their mind, and hence we have a babylonian situation whereby most everyone is clamoring to have their own view heard over the cacophany of other interpretations. In the meantime, reality is still always reality...glorious beyond understanding for those who respect absolute truth.


What a load of crap. Of course it can be argued that questions of epistemology apply to any and all topics, but how about you keep your pseudo-intellectual eastern philosophy crapola out of threads like this?
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:48 am

I'm fine with Ben's periodic reminders that he has opted to give up on research for the warm shores of Samadhi.

I don't think it is remotely relevant to the OP regarding "world-historical perspective" but I'm not mad about it.

The downside of online discussion forums is the inability to physically slap someone, which is my usual response to such "everything is everything" annihilation of perspective coming from a primate who will be defecating in the next few hours.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby coffin_dodger » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:52 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:The downside of online discussion forums is the inability to physically slap someone, which is my usual response to such "everything is everything" annihilation of perspective coming from a primate who will be defecating in the next few hours.


:rofl2 I love a good poo-poo joke. Seriously though, that's a metaphorical slap, right? I hadn't considered you the bitchslap type.
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Re: Today in world-historical perspective (why not?)

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:11 pm

I have never "bitchslapped" anyone in my life, although I have a remarkable proclivity for getting into fights since I've been back in the motherland.

My last response to a "nothing is really real and none of this matters" monologue in my kitchen was filling up a pint glass with water and pouring it out over the enlightened one's head. People generally only visit me once and I'm fine with that. Everything is infinitely meaningless and perfect, but there's still dishes and laundry to do. Peak moments are supposed to be rare.

Back to the subject at hand, though...should I spend $100 on Immanuel Wallerstein books this weekend?

From the top of the pyramid, there is no pyramid. It's a simple fact, but often lost on those of us watching from below, taking notes on the power structure and sifting through clues every day. The view from the cockpit is very different from what the rest of the plane sees. As Bill Moyers said of David Rockefeller: "What some critics see as a vast international conspiracy, he considers a circumstance of life, and just another days work."


Rumi's line about "lions on a banner" comes to mind again...
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