Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:36 pm

Yeah, I'm still posting on Democratic Underground. Shoot me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025267434

I first became aware of the former KGB and FSB commander Vladimir Putin in the summer of 1999, when he was appointed as prime minister under then Russian president Boris Yeltsin. Soon after, apartment buildings in Moscow were subjected to a series of bombings that killed hundreds of people in their homes. The evidence available open source at the time and since suggested strongly that this was, itself, the result of an FSB operation designed to terrorize Muscovites and blame Chechen terrorists; with the immediate aim of justifying a revival of the deadly war that Yeltsin had earlier mounted in Chechnya (1995), but had been forced to withdraw due to a popular opposition led by mothers of soldiers. State-led propaganda styled Putin overnight into the-country’s new strongman and savior. Yeltsin resigned prematurely on December 31st, during the global Millennium celebrations. This left the until then relative unknown Putin as interim president and made him a fait accompli to win presidential elections that were moved up by several months. Russian politics at work, and not just Russian: first we’ll have the election, then you all can vote.

Curious that this original crime of the Putin tenure is not mentioned today by those outside Russia who have styled him into a new Hitler and greatest threat to world peace, but I guess giving credence to accusations of false-flag operations anywhere is a sensitive matter. We prefer our politics to appear as the result of things we can see. It’s personally appalling to me that, having followed his essentially criminal rise and autocratic rule for the last 15 years, I am now accused of being a “Putin lover” and fascist sympathizer and the like, simply for not participating in the “New Hitler” narrative that should be the exclusive province of neo-cons, and not a common theme at DU. This recalls for me the situation in 2002-2003, when Saddam Hussein was demonized as the new Hitler and intolerable threat to the world. But at the time, about 2/3 of DU members adamantly opposed the narrative and the Bush regime’s drive toward a U.S. military invasion of Iraq. We did not fall for the false dichotomy. We were able to say that yes, Saddam was very bad, but not that it therefore followed that Bush and his war were good, or in any way acceptable, or anything less than an unprovoked act of aggressive war. Yet there were also those even on DU who took the bait, and suggested that the anti-war majority here was in fact “supporting Saddam.”

This is a plea for the kind of intelligence, nuance, and determination to get at complicated truths, which was in the majority on DU at the time, to be applied now to the present situations in Russia and the Ukraine, and to the response and policies arising in the United States and the West.

The 1990s were a disaster for most of the Russian people. The promise following the successful popular resistance led by Yeltsin against the Communist hardline coup d’etat of August 1991 had turned into the bloody spectacle of Yeltsin ordering the shelling of the Russian parliament in 1993, when legislators refused to grant him the authority to rule by decree in imposing capitalist shock therapy on the nation’s economy. The mafia capitalism and economic decline for the many that followed translated into awesome power and riches for a tight set of neo-billionaire oligarchs around Yeltsin, who were in part celebrated as pioneers among Western elites; and hunger and misery on the Russian streets, as the lifespan of the average Russian male declined by about seven years. The rouble melted down in 1998, while Yeltsin engaged in years of openly drunken displays at international functions and finally resorted to changing prime ministers about as often as his underwear. The FSB’s seizure of power in this situation to establish a new authoritarianism with a democratic face was a criminal response, but under the circumstances it also wasn’t the worst of all possible scenarios. This after all is how many versions of authoritarianism and fascism, overt and covert, have become popular: Putin restored order – the persistence of occasional political assassinations notwithstanding – and reined in the worst excesses of the oligarchs, preventing a sell-off of Russian resources to global capital and in effect establishing a more stable and sustainable kleptocracy that could also allow more growth, more crumbs for the people.

Politics still done by a handful of fixers, an extreme conservative cultural reaction, systematic attacks on the gay population and racial minorities, intermittent and ambiguous campaigns against symbols of Western-style liberalism, and a (continuing) loss of democratic and human rights for dissidents and minorities came with the package. Geopolitically, Putin passed Bush’s test of looking into his “soul” and aligned with the U.S. war on terror: Stealth planes would take off from Missouri and over-fly Russia on their way to bombing Afghanistan.

Then came the 2003 break over Iraq and the formation of the “Old Europe” axis of Russia, Germany and France. Like it or not, through deals with Europe as well as with other authoritarian but nationalist regimes, and through membership in devices like BRICS and SCO, Moscow has participated in creating a loose counterweight to the dominance of Western-based neoliberal capital and U.S. imperial projects – with Russia itself playing a more traditional imperialist power. But there is little evidence this goes beyond the ugliness of realpolitik (or an even understandable self-defense in world context) and extends to a concerted plan motivated by an irrational and “fascist” Russian revanchism to attempt a reconquest of the entire Soviet Union or Eastern Europe that would be doomed to catastrophe. This, however, is the narrative as forged by neocon intellectuals (some of whom sit in the present administration, like Victoria Nuland) and liberal imperialists (like Samantha Powers), and that now finds such purchase on DU.

Which brings us to Ukraine. Another sad case that has seen a succession of kleptocracies in power since its independence following the 1991 break-up of the Soviet Union. There is no doubt that last year, the people there had their say against an authoritarian government on the streets. At the same time, there is also no doubt fascist groupings – explicitly, ideologically fascist, invoking the history of Ukrainian ethnic fascism – participated in that. The people in Kiev rose up, yes, but after Yanukovich fled they got an unelected government, with the backing of a U.S. covert but hardly secret intervention that put in power precisely the personnel named by the State Department. This new Kiev government, under a former central banker sponsored by the Ukrainian oligarch Pinchuk, is led by a larger party of Ukrainian hyper-neoliberals kowtowing to the same kind of EU plan for debt slavery and austerity that destroyed Greece. They also employ ethno-nationalist war talk and, as their junior partner, have allied with a smaller party of fascists, who have coordinated the street enforcement.

It’s wrong to speak of the new Kiev government simply as fascist, but it’s sheer denial to blind ourselves to the fascist party within it. How would you respond, if New Democracy took neo-Nazi Golden Dawn on as a junior partner in its governing coalition in Athens, or if Hollande invited members of the National Front into his cabinet, say “merely” to run the family, education and immigration ministries? Here again, we must avoid the false dichotomy wherein if Putin or the Russian state are bad, their opponents must therefore be good. Still in place today without a parliamentary election following the snap presidential election of Poroshenko in May, the Yatsenyuk government from the start exploited Ukrainian ethnic nationalism as a theme to secure a base, in the process demonizing the Russian-speaking minority. They even passed a law to abolish Russian as an official language of the multi-ethnic Ukrainian state. The law was later annulled by the interim president, but the signal was received. Predictably this, first, caused the 90%+ Russian ethnic population of Crimea to opt out of the country immediately. You’re misguided if you think Putin wouldn’t respond to secure and absorb both this population and the location of some of his state’s most important military assets. Like it or not, the atavism is winning out on both sides, but Crimea went to Russia spontaneously, willingly and with almost no bloodshed, notwithstanding the Tatar minority.

The clumsy “kill-terrorists” anti-Russian rhetoric and repression pursued by Kiev also opened the way for an alternate thuggishness in the Ukrainian east, an armed resistance among the large ethnic Russian population there. To see this as the result of a process driven by largely bad actors and the dynamics of fear and hatred on both sides is not to take either side. I am not “pro-Russian,” or in favor of the “Ukrainian” side, and to adopt these terms uncritically plays into the mechanics by which the citizens of a formerly multi-language secular republic are being turned into ethnically motivated antagonists. This has happened before, in Yugoslavia, where many of the young literally were forced to remember that they were supposed to be not Yugoslavians but Serbians or Croatians at each others’ throats, now fight or die. Our own country’s government, unfortunately, has been relentless in taking Kiev’s side, even dispatching CIA and FBI personnel and private mercenaries to assist Kiev in its pacification campaign.

And here we may disagree about what has followed. You may see a strategy of infiltration and material backing of the “Donetsk Republic” by a Russian state aiming at conquest of eastern Ukraine. You may even think that was Moscow’s master plan since the beginning of the Maidan uprising, or even years ago. Whereas, unlike with Crimea, I see no credible gain for Moscow or Putin in an attempt to absorb a territory with a mixed population and a civil war underway – a territory from which the best economic exploitation for Russia would actually follow simply from stabilizing the situation and making Ukraine pay its Russian gas bills with money borrowed from the EU-IMF (said money then to be owed back to EU-IMF for all eternity, but hey, that’s what a working class is for). By the way, to oppose EU policy and the current dominance of neoliberalism and authoritarian governance within the EU during this period of internal economic crisis and class warfare is not to be “anti-European,” and no more valid than the other false dichotomies I’ve mentioned. I consider my stance to be pro-European, and I also see realpolitik for Moscow in continuing to strengthen its economic dealings with the EU and especially Germany.

The alternative for Moscow, i.e., the aggressive strategy attributed to it by the neocons and others in the West, would be to receive hundreds of thousands of refugees from the Ukraine and to generate an endless new Yugoslavian-type war on its borders, in the process physically separating itself from Europe: a war that can have no winners on the ground, only graveyards in different colors, but one that may, indeed, serve some sick geopolitical aim hatched by schemers in more than one far-away capital. Say what you will of Putin, and he may be even worse than you think, but since his bloody rise he has acted not as a chaos agent – this is not a realpolitik interest of Russia’s, and it certainly wasn’t working under Yeltsin – but as a stabilizer of Moscow’s power and rule. At the same time, his own power though great is hardly without any condition. He depends on the nationalist and conservative currents and tropes he rode to greater power (and that he appears largely to believe in), and he can hardly have his base see him as selling out ethnic Russians being massacred by the upstart Kiev “fascists,” or be too vigorous in preventing help to the Ukrainian Russians from Russian citizens; not to mention Russia’s own bloody mercenary-militarist elements. The best chance for reining the latter in, actually, may be coming right now in the wake of the MH17 shootdown and resultant death of hundreds of completely uninvolved and innocent foreigners, mainly Dutch and Malaysian. This is a time when a Western realpolitik that favors peace and not more war should not be scoring cheap points in demonizing Putin, but encouraging him to seize the opportunity of stopping Russian support for Donetsk, ending the conflict, establishing peaceful conditions. Who doesn’t want that?

With regard to the airliner, a rational person should rule out nothing as the events unfold and the seemingly tainted investigations proceed, and there are legitimate questions to ask (such as why passenger flights were still going over a warzone that had seen multiple downings of aircraft, but I figure the answer lies in corporate fuel costs and not a conspiracy). The fact is that until that moment Kiev militarily controlled the airspace, and the Donetsk militias were the ones trying to shoot down planes. Thus it is near-certain they used one a BuK array captured from the Ukrainian military to mistakenly target MH17. Since then, the Kiev government has broken out into a rabid display of rhetoric about “terrorists” run directly by Putin (sadly echoed here on DU) with the implication of an intentional strike on foreign civilians, as insanely counter-productive as that would have been for Moscow and the rebels. In this behavior, as with earlier moves, Kiev seems to want to stoke hostility between the West and Moscow. Yet it’s the Donetsk side who have shown the actions of a guilty party in the question of who shot down the plane, and it’s been a truly ugly and inhumane display.

The Ukrainian hostilities have also seen willful massacres of civilians, on both sides, and there have been serial and awesome lies as a matter of course, on both sides. To me it’s also clear the decision to escalate this into war originated in Kiev, with a government that has acted illegitimately since its accession, and also clear that the Yatsenyuk government and some of its backers and allies have the most to gain (or also to lose) in the gamble of escalation. Is it possible for me to say that, after all of the above, without promptly having you throw labels of “fascist” and “Putin lover” at me? And can we have a discussion of U.S. policy in all this without the pretense that there isn’t a U.S. policy, that it’s just a series of responses to the barbarism of the irrational grasping Putin and his “terrorists”? Because there was a U.S. policy prior to Yanukovich’s departure, and it was to help see him go and put Yatsenyuk’s group in charge. And since then there has been a clear U.S. policy, backed by material support, to favor the new Kiev government in everything it does. I don’t support the U.S. policy. I’d like to be able to say so here and receive intelligent, thoughtful reponses that agree, disagree, add, or give a different analysis. Thank you.

/
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15988
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby alan ford » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:52 pm

"When elephants fight grass gets hurt"

"The first victim of the war is truth"
alan ford
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby Morty » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:34 pm

Nice post. I don't know much about it, but I did hear years ago that Putin arrived on the scene because he was meant to be another compliant stooge, like Yeltsin was, but that he went a little rogue and started doing a few patriotic things here and there, rather than slavishly acting always at the behest of the oligarchy. To the extent that this is true, might he perhaps be absolved of some of the blame of the apartment bombings which helped him achieve power in the first place?
User avatar
Morty
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:53 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby justdrew » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:44 am

Morty » 20 Jul 2014 19:34 wrote:Nice post. I don't know much about it, but I did hear years ago that Putin arrived on the scene because he was meant to be another compliant stooge, like Yeltsin was, but that he went a little rogue and started doing a few patriotic things here and there, rather than slavishly acting always at the behest of the oligarchy. To the extent that this is true, might he perhaps be absolved of some of the blame of the apartment bombings which helped him achieve power in the first place?


we don't KNOW he did any apartment bombings. It could just as easily be a 'double false flag' for all we know. A way for some to 'spoil' the fait accompli of his rise. It REALLY could have been Chechens too.
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:14 am

justdrew » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:44 pm wrote:we don't KNOW he did any apartment bombings. It could just as easily be a 'double false flag' for all we know. A way for some to 'spoil' the fait accompli of his rise. It REALLY could have been Chechens too.


Whether he ran it or was the lucky beneficiary waiting for a present, or anything in between, who knows. But there's very little doubt.

http://www.oilempire.us/999.html

Sorry, Disbelief is not online. Great documentary, focuses on people from the apartment house where "the exercise" was exposed when the bombs were found before exploding and the men who planted them were arrested. They turned out to be FSB! FSB HQ promptly claimed the hexagene explosive found by the local bomb squad was just sugar, and it was all just some innocent wargaming. Many people from this building and the bomb squad gathered in a one-hour news talk in-studio show on Russian TV at the time, telling their story. And then not heard from in the Russian media again. Or the Western media, however.

There is "Assassination of Russia," not as good and I think Heritage money. The ironies.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3A70B15DEA6621EF

Why can't I find the book by Alexander Litvinenko and Yuri Felshtinsky, Blowing Up Russia: The Secret Plot to Bring Back KGB Terror? I had that, even contacted Felshtinsky at one point but he wasn't going to touch a 9/11 truth appearance even if he was only going to talk 9/99.

Not unlike Ames and Taibbi, former Moscow Times writers who don't have any doubts about what happened (but make sure to mock anyone who might want to use this as an example of something that could happen in any other country). Anyway, they're solid on the 9/99 story too.

Gad, I wrote this 12 years ago, in June 2002:
http://911truth.org/osamas/history.html

September 11th: On This Date In History

BIG SNIP!

Sept. 11, 1999
Darkness in Moscow.

No bombs went off in Moscow on Sept. 11, 1999, as far as I am aware. The Russian capital was in the grip of a series of random bombing incidents that killed more than 300 people between Aug. 31 and late September. These were blamed on Chechen terrorism, with thousands of ethnic Caucasians rounded up or expelled from the city that autumn, but the authorship of the attacks has never been officially explained. Another wave of bombings, attributed to separatist Muslim rebels, was underway in Dagestan, the Russian province neighboring Chechnya.

In mid-August Boris Yeltsin had appointed a new premier, the until-then relative unknown vice-mayor of Petrograd, Vladimir Putin, former head of the FSB, the successor organization to the KGB. Putin was Yeltsin's fourth choice of prime minister in one year. The Yeltsin presidency had reached its low point, its leader enfeebled and alcoholized, the treasury emptied over many years in a coordinated plunder by his cronies and allied oligarchs, the country's second and most devastating economic crash of the 1990s having come the year before. Many observers speculated on his accession that Putin's would be the last in the merry-go-round of Yeltsin governments, that he was the choice of a "strongman" faction at FSB and the security services who wished to impose order on the country's chaos.

Just before the terror wave begins, the intelligence service STRATFOR predicts that when Yeltsin's mood next changes, as is wont to happen on a three-month basis, it will be Putin who deposes Yeltsin, and not vice-versa. Within weeks of his appointment, five apartment houses collapse in horrific explosions and the populace is pitched into a panic. Putin shows a firm front and prepares a new offensive in Chechnya, from which federal Russian forces had withdrawn after a bloody debacle and amid widespread protests by Russian soldier's mothers in 1996.

The last incident occurs on Sept. 23, when local authorities announce they have defused another large apartment bomb found in the Moscow satellite city of Ryazan. Two men who allegedly planted the bomb are arrested by the police, after attempting to get away by flashing FSB identification cards. The FSB acknowledges that the two men are its agents, and states that the "bomb" was actually a fake using powdered sugar instead of real explosives in a security exercise. Members of the local bomb squad still insist the powder was a real explosive, and the apartment dwellers in Ryazan to this day remain nervous, believing they only narrowly escaped death. This was the end of that year's apartment bombing incidents.

The FSB story drops out of the media and into the realm of febrile rumor. Russian forces launch a brutal offensive in Chechnya, reducing to dust whatever was left was left over of Grozny from the 1996 action. On the evening of Dec. 31, 1999, Yeltsin goes on television to abruptly announce his resignation, elevating Putin to the post of interim president and endorsing him as his successor. It later leaks out that Putin forced him out with threats - and the promise that his family and immediate circle would not be exposed for their role in the emptying of the country's treasury by Russian oligarchs, old spooks and mobsters, and their international associates who spirited much of the booty offshore and to Switzerland.

By law, Yeltsin's resignation moves the long-awaited presidential elections of June 2000 up by three months to March 2000, destroying the hopes of a variety of long-term challengers-in-the-waiting by virtually guaranteeing victory for Putin. Once again, a Russian election has been subverted. Putin thus catapults from relative obscurity to Russia's Savior in four months flat. A new party is founded just for him. He is elected and inaugurated in a ceremony of astonishing pomp, marching through the palace over a red carpet that goes on for miles as trumpets blare.

Over the next two years, the country's independent media are shut down, appropriated by state-owned companies or Putin allies. Journalists and political organizers are subject to mass harrassment and arrest. There is a break with Boris Berezovsky, former Yeltsin ally, last of the media oligarchs, who flees the country to London. There, he produces a 2002 documentary claiming the Sept. 1999 attacks were authored by elements within the FSB.

Putin is meanwhile greeted into the halls of world power as the man who got Russia back on keel, cultivating a buddy-buddy relationship as a German-speaker with Chancellor Schröder. In early 2001, he has his first summit with the freshly-appointed American president. Bush tells the American people that he has "looked into President Putin's eyes, and seen that he is a man with a good soul." After Sept. 11, 2001, Putin becomes a reliable ally in Bush's anti-terror campaign, so far exceeded in his protestations of loyalty to the cause perhaps only by Tony Blair. The link is drawn between Qaeda and the various Chechen rebel factions. Putin says his country faces the same enemy as America.

What did he and Bush really see in each other's eyes?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15988
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby MayDay » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:36 pm

Great op, Jack. This is the most balanced analysis of the situation I've read so far. Thank you. I must apologize for fanning the flames of hysteria. Were it not for the apparent "calling card" (and I'm not ruling out the possibility of a series of highly unlikely coincidences), I would be much less hesitant to accept things at face value- that the separatist militia mistook a commercial airliner for a ukrainian fighter jet. The Putindunnit! chorus is deafening and sickening, and obviously erroneous. Whoever is responsible, this is a definite boon for Washington and Kiev.
User avatar
MayDay
 
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby slimmouse » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:39 pm

I would like to thank Jack too. Nice analysis.

Who are the real winners from all of this though?

This is what needs to be conveyed to the proles of both sides of the latest created mayhem.
slimmouse
 
Posts: 6129
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 7:41 am
Location: Just outside of you.
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby Gashweir » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:43 pm

Is this a yes/no question? Sadly, the answer is no, probably not.
Gashweir
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:09 am

Not a lot of intelligent talk here in the UK - increasing agitprop, yes:
Alexander Litvinenko death: Home secretary announces inquiry 22 July 2014 BBC News
An inquiry will be held into the death of the Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko, the Home Secretary Theresa May has announced.

Mr Litvinenko, a former KGB officer, died in 2006 in a London hospital after he was allegedly poisoned with radioactive polonium.

The investigation will examine whether the Russian state was behind his death.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28416532
User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby Forgetting2 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:02 am

Excellent OP Jack, thanks!
You know what you finally say, what everybody finally says, no matter what? I'm hungry. I'm hungry, Rich. I'm fuckin' starved. -- Cutter's Way
User avatar
Forgetting2
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:19 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby stefano » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:58 am

Thanks Jack, very good. Is your doctorate about this stuff?

Curious that this original crime of the Putin tenure [apartment bombings] is not mentioned today by those outside Russia who have styled him into a new Hitler and greatest threat to world peace, but I guess giving credence to accusations of false-flag operations anywhere is a sensitive matter.

Yes! I found it extremely interesting at the time that, despite good coverage worldwide of the murders of Anna Politkovskaya and Alexander Litvinenko, no big outlets really explained the way in which they had exposed the apartment bombings, and how sensitive that was for Putin... Unconscious reaction by journos to avoid 'conspiracy theory' thinking, after 9/11? Or pressure from the media owners? Those bombings are a good illustration of murderous false flags in general. I like to tell the story when a friend laughs at me for believing conspiracy theories. The Russians are 'other' enough that people can easily accept that they would 'kill their own people', and then the question becomes: why, exactly, don't you think Americans are capable of the same?
User avatar
stefano
 
Posts: 2672
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:50 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby American Dream » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:35 am

Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Given that there is a huge propaganda effort by the Russian State (and thus by Putin and his cronies)- how capable will we be of maintaining critical consciousness regarding that propaganda effort? Especially considering that the Russian State initiative is trafficking in conspiracy discourse which blends in "true facts" about the machinations of the E.U., the U.S., NATO, or whoever?

Will this lead some/more among us towards effectively endorsing Putin's politics? Because I reject them, just as I reject the agenda of the others.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby coffin_dodger » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:16 am

Jack, that's a fantastic piece of impartial analysis. Thanks.

Isn't it about time this thread got a spamming, regaling tales of Russian anti-semetism, sweaty Russian hunks wearing balaclavas and waving red and black flags?
User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby coffin_dodger » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:54 am

User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: Can we talk intelligently about Russia and Ukraine?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:11 pm

American Dream » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:35 am wrote:Will this lead some/more among us towards effectively endorsing Putin's politics? Because I reject them, just as I reject the agenda of the others.


Has your monomania for binary traps ever been stated in more starkly hilarious terms? I'm uncertain.

Upon finishing JR's excellent OP, my first concern was exactly that: "Gosh, what if this is the catalyst that turns RI into a homophobic, authoritarian & Russian Orthodox hate site?"

Thank you for alerting us to the dangers, as ever.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests