Shot down with Malaysian MH-17

[demolished]

... is any last vestige of the West's credibility.


From the US and its Western allies surfaced only groundless blames and accusation, not to mention fake evidence and tirades of war-mongering propaganda. No answers at all to the following central issues of this MH-17 event:


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-malays ... ed/5393296

By Julie Lévesque
Global Research, July 26, 2014

The Malaysian Airline MH17 Crash: Sixteen Central Issues Which Cannot be Ignored

In establishing who was behind the shooting down of MH17, there are a number of central issues as well as factual evidence which cannot be overlooked:


1. Malaysian Airlines confirmed that the pilot was instructed to fly at a lower altitude by the Kiev air traffic control tower upon its entry into Ukraine airspace. (Malaysian Airlines MH17 Was Ordered to Fly over the East Ukraine Warzone)

2. The flight path was changed. We still don’t know who ordered it, but we know it was not Eurocontrol:

MH17 was diverted from the normal South Easterly route over the sea of Azov to a path over the Donetsk. Oblast. (The Flight Path of MH17 Was Changed. July 17 Plane Route was over the Ukraine Warzone)

According to Malaysian Airlines “The usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.”

…

The regular flight path of MH17 (and other international flights) over a period of ten days prior to July 17th ( day of the disaster), crossing Eastern Ukraine in a Southeasterly direction is across the Sea of Azov (click on the article link below to see the map). While the audio records of the MH17 flight have been confiscated by the Kiev government, the order to change the flight path did not come from Eurocontrol. Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? (Malaysian Airlines MH17 Was Ordered to Fly over the East Ukraine Warzone)

3. The presence of the Ukrainian military jet was confirmed by Spanish air traffic controller “Carlos” at Kiev Borispol airport shortly after the plane was shot down, as well as eyewitnesses in Donetsk. (How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”, Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing MH#17

The Spanish air traffic controller documented the event on Twitter as it happened. He claimed it was not an accident, that the Ukrainian authorities shot down MH17 and were trying to “make it look like an attack by pro-Russians” . His Twitter account was closed down shortly after the tragedy. Although his account has yet to be fully corroborated, some of his claims have been confirmed by Malaysian Airlines and the Russian authorities.

There have been some reports to the effect the Spanish Air controller is fake and that the twitter message were sent out of London. Upon further investigation, the Spanish Air Controller conducted several media interviews in the last 2-3 months, see his interview with RT (Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing MH#17)

4. Russia has made available public radar and satellite imagery as evidence. Its images suggest the following:

a) Kiev’s regime deployed anti-air missile systems in Donetsk in and around the area where flight MH17 crashed.

b) An Ukrainian warplane SU-25 trailing flight MH17

c) the report pointed to the possibility of an air-to-air attack on MH17

d) the report also pointed to inconsistencies pertaining to the reports of the Ukrainian air traffic control

The Russian authorities did not come to any conclusion regarding who was to blame for shooting down the plane. (MH17 Show & Tell: It’s the West’s Turn – Russian Satellites and Radars Contradict West’s Baseless Claims)

5. The U.S., despite its global spying apparatus, has not shown any radar or satellite imagery to back its claim that Russia and the Eastern-Ukrainian opposition are responsible for the downing of MH17. The evidence it has presented so far is weak and based on pro-Kiev documents consisting of YouTube videos and various social media – “all of which are admittedly unverifiable and some of which is veritably fabricated.”:

Is US intelligence simply reading blogs? Or are the blogs somehow a clearinghouse of US intelligence? Or are the blogs fabrications by US intelligence in an attempt to frame Russia? One in particular, “Ukraine at War,” is a definitive collection of fabrications, biased propaganda, and dubious claims that appear to precede “US intelligence” claims. (Assigning Blame to East Ukraine Rebels: US Appeals to “Law of the Jungle” in MH17 Case)

6. “The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area”:

The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data captured by the satellite.(How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

7. A U.S. intelligence source claimed the “U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms”. These images could confirm the evidence presented by Russia to the effect that Kiev’s regime deployed anti-air missile systems in Donetsk in and around the area where flight MH17 crashed. (Fact number 4, Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17)

8. Russia called for an expert independent investigation:

President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires “a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Putin’s call for an independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with anything to hide. (How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

9. The U.S. claimed, without evidence, but “with confidence” that Russia was involved:

[On July 20, the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it was “pretty clear” that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry’s words: “It’s pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.” (Ibid.)

10. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's statement above regarding Russian involvement is contradicted by the Russian satellite photos and numerous eye witnesses on the ground. (Ibid.)

11. US intelligence officials said there is no evidence of the Russian government’s involvement, also contradicting John Kerry's statement above. (US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. “US Satellite Photos do not Support Obama’s Lies”, The author refers to this news item by the Associated Press: US INTELLIGENCE: No 'Direct' Russian Involvement In Downing Of MH17)

12. A few hours after the crash, Kiev authorities presented a video in which the opposition admitted shooting down the plane. Experts who studied the video concluded that it was a fabrication:

“The tape’s second fragment consists of three pieces but was presented as a single audio recording. However, a spectral and time analysis has showed that the dialog was cut into pieces and then assembled. Short pauses in the tape are very indicative: the audio file has preserved time marks which show that the dialog was assembled from various episodes.” (Ibid.)

The encoding of the video file shows it was created on July 16, the day before the plane was shot down. This information remains to be confirmed, but if it is accurate, it would mean that the Ukrainian authorities shot the plane down and fabricated evidence to frame the opposition (Did Ukraine Fabricate Evidence to Frame Russia for MH17 Shoot Down?, How American Propaganda Works: “Guilt By Insinuation”)

13. John Kerry “referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with 'a missing missile or so.'” The video was “posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister.”According to numerous sources the video was “taken in or near Krasnoarmeisk”, a town under Kiev's control since May and located “ 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian Boeing 777 crashed”:

At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on researching that one for you. (Key Piece of Video “Evidence” for Russian Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked)

14. Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema said the Ukrainian opposition did not possess a Buk missile system:

“Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by the Buk missile system...Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday: 'After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300... These weapons were not seized'” (Militias Do Not Have Ukrainian Buk Missile System — Ukraine General Prosecutor)

15. The MH17 incident is used to wage economic war against Russia. Sanctions imposed in the wake of the event, without any evidence of Russian implication, are used to weaken the ruble and destabilize the Russian Monetary system. (The Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crash: Financial Warfare --against Russia, Multibillion Dollar Bonanza for Wall Street)

16. In 1962, the U.S. Joint Chief of Staff planned Operation Northwoods, a secret "false flag operation" (declassified) in which a civilian airliner was to be shot down and blamed on the Cuban government. The objective was to manufacture a pretext to wage war on Cuba. (The Implementation of Operations Northwoods was turned down by President John F. Kennedy).

[Elihu]

interesting that such level headedness is still out there, an eight year member with 21 posts.

I think the pump and the bankruptcy is looming. they need a war and they need it badly.

surprised Syria didn't work out although it should be back up to bat soon. but Russia? now they're taking it up a notch...

[Wombaticus Rex]

Via: http://www.theautomaticearth.com/debt-r ... are-fools/

At this point, you may want to consider making it personal. Your government, wherever you are in the west, but especially in the US, takes you for a bunch of fools they can feed anything at all and fully expect you to believe all of it. As for the media who convey government messages, it’s up in the air whether they too take you for a flock of dimwits, or are just plain fools themselves. As for your families, friends and neighbors, you decide.

After failing to present a single shred of evidence in 10 days to substantiate their claims that either the rebels, Russia or all of the above were involved in the downing of MH17, they still haven’t. They did, however, come with something that is as devoid of shame as it is full of disgrace. And the media, surprise, present it as the real deal once again. Which goes to prove that nothing has to be real or true, Washington only has to claim it is.

...

But they’re going to talk about it again, you just wait for it, just like they’re going to continue to blame Putin and the rebels for everything that goes wrong in Ukraine. They’re not going to stop until they have control over Russia’s resources, no matter what the body count, and they’re not going to stop until most Americans are de facto debt slaves.

And Uncle Sam counts on you! To swallow it all hook line and sinker. It works like a charm to date.

[seemslikeadream]

getting close

A third of Americans delinquent on debt

[Wombaticus Rex]

This is a sobering read, too: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/ ... onomy.html

But, let us not wander too far afield.

The fumbling desperation of these propaganda plays is, indeed, remarkable. The United States has always been better at branding than messaging.

However, I see this -- and please bear in mind how dumb I am -- but I see this as a Neocon/Neolib beltway faction making hail mary plays because the actual machinery of NatSec is preparing to spit them out. Obamadmin's "smooth transition" in 2008, which kept on most of the Bush-appointed players, led to this weird conglomeration. Almost none of these people are veterans, almost all of them are wonks. Wonks can't all be Henry Kissinger...and in fact, by mathematical law, the vast majority of them cannot be, they are merely being fattened for the Feast, at which time their throats will be slit and they'll either retire to think tanks or, you know, actually die, not an uncommon fate for hungry lil' predators in DC.

Nuland's "Fuck the EU" comment was more than a gaffe, more than a scandal, it was a very clear signal that she's been operating in a bubble and has probably never appreciated the game she was playing. (She would not be useful for her employers if she did.) I suspect that NATO will survive a very long time in the peak oil endgame, even once most other alliances are "reverting to primary allegiances," in classic collapse form. Only an insulated and carefully groomed DC "insider" could be dumb enough to think the EU doesn't matter.

2016 is going to be fucking fascinating.

[seemslikeadream]

[Luther Blissett]

bravo

[alloneword]

Raúl (automaticearth) is bang on the money there:

as devoid of shame as it is full of disgrace

Orlov's also worth a read, if only for his Russian sense of humour.

So... speaking of disgraceful shamelessness, I offer you this:

MH17: how Storyful’s ‘social sleuthing’ helped verify evidence
Stories such as the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines plane show the importance of checking Twitter and YouTube content
Ben Cardew
The Guardian, Sunday 27 July 2014 18.15 BST

In the aftermath of an event as tragically uncertain as the MH17 plane disaster, amid claim and counterclaim about who was responsible, it becomes ever more important for news organisations to verify the validity of material on social media.

This is where social news agency Storyful and its Open Newsroom come into their own. The Dublin-based company – acquired by News Corp for €18m in December 2013 – specialises in finding and verifying news content on social media. Open Newsroom, which Storyful launched on Google+ in June 2013, is “a real-time community of news professionals” whose objective is to “debunk, fact-check, clarify, credit and source” information around big news stories.

Last week, amid a flood of unverified information following the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine, Open Newsroom confirmed members of the Donetsk People’s Republic separatist militia “at the very least” appeared to have access to an anti-aircraft missile system capable of an attack like the one carried out on the plane.

Alas, they neglect to tell us what they made of the 'smoking gun' video.

[KUAN]

These parents of a victim are suspicious of the official line:

George and Angela Dyczynski saw much at the MH17 crash site but nothing that diminished their belief that their daughter, Fatima, somehow survived.

In fact, Ms Dyczynski has threatened to sue anyone who suggests - without evidence - that Fatima is dead.

The Perth-based parents arrived back in the Netherlands yesterday after a five-day trip during which they reached the crash site in rebel-controlled eastern Ukraine.


At Amsterdam Airport they clasped a flyer for the upcoming International Astronautical Congress in Canada and told AAP: "Fatima is a speaker at the conference."

There was no suggestion the couple's brilliant 25-year-old daughter might not be able to make it to Toronto in late September.

They want Fatima's colleagues from the space science community to become involved in the crash investigation. They want the best of the best on the case.

Fatima had, after all, created a start-up company to send nano-satellites into space. "She was an aerospace engineer, she was a scientist, she was a young person with new ideas and new perspectives and new horizons," Dr Dyczynski said.

"We want more scientific investigations with the data that's already gathered. It should start now - not wait months and months until we forget."

The couple say an expert panel including space scientists could help prevent future incidents.

Dr Dyczynski believes something is amiss in the world's skies - particularly given the disappearance of MH370 in March.

"Maybe not all things are looked at from the right perspective," the cardiologist and acupuncturist said.

"Maybe other perspectives are important to investigate. It's not only maybe a missile (that downed MH17) but something more.

"If it would have been a missile, and the rebels shot down this aeroplane, they would not have handed out the black boxes."

It's one thing to question how the plane was brought down, but another to believe a passenger could have survived. The fact the Dyczynskis do is down to a combination of faith and science.

"There is a small possibility that something still survived," Fatima's father said.

"The people of Donetsk were first at the crash site and if somebody survived maybe they have taken them."

The couple plan to stay in Amsterdam for two or three days and then likely head home to Australia.

They've received support from back home and from Australia's Foreign Minister Julie Bishop who wrote to them after the crash.

In return, the Dyczynskis left Ms Bishop, who's currently in Kiev, one of four sunflowers they took from the crash site.

The remaining three flowers are destined for the Netherlands' Princess Beatrix and Fatima's two grandmothers.

- AAP

[MacCruiskeen]

Shot down with Malaysian MH-17... is any last vestige of the West's credibility.

Yes. Thanks for this thread. It saved me having to start one entitled: The Axis of Evil: USA-UK-Israel.

But so what? Who needs credibility? (That's so Sixties!) We're currently being subjected to an ever-intensifying torrent of ever-more-blatant sheer bullshit from our ruling politicians and their media. And nothing happens. For them, this performs the very useful function of confirming, on a day-to-day basis, that there is now literally nothing that will not be tolerated. How could it not be tolerated, when you have your population safely surveilled, overworked (or unemployed), enslaved to debt, and addicted to TV?

The top two headlines in today's Guardian:

1.

Sweeping economic sanctions imposed on Russia by EU and US

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... overnments

2.

Gaza's only power plant destroyed in Israel's most intense air strike yet

At least 100 Palestinians killed as TV and radio outlets, mosque and refugee camp all targeted as calls for ceasefire dismissed

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... nians-dead

Axis of evil. And we ain't seen nuthin' yet. Gaza is a testbed.

[Morty]

To my mind, the Russians aren't protesting loudly enough. If they were innocent of all charges I figure they'd be doing a right old song and dance about it, but they aren't. So the tentative conclusion I've come to (again - this is the same conclusion I started with, but I've cycled through all the possibilities and arrived back at the same spot since then) is that the separatists shot MH17 down, but they were tricked into doing it. Probably the Ukrainian jet fighter in the area drew fire, and led the buk up to MH17. This explains why neither the US nor RF have released military data on what they know about what happened. Both sides know what happened (one side arranged for it to be done, and the other side unwittingly did it), but it benefits neither of them to spell out to the public what went down.

There was too much hinkey stuff going on to think that it was 100% a fuck up by the rebels. Kerry would be doing a whole lot more uncontrollable gloating out of that hideous maw of his if it was purely a case of fuckuppery on the part of the separatists. He isn't, so it wasn't. It's pure lies coming out of him, as usual. And Putin is either too complicit in supplying the weapons, or too unwilling to finger the separatists, to grasp the nettle so that he can explain that they was framed.

The Russian claim that there was a fully operational Ukrainian group of Buk units that came into the area just before, and went out just after MH17 going down is interesting. As I say, if it did the shoot down, you'd think the Russians would be screaming about it. Hopefully time will tell all.

Do many people really believe it was 100% a false flag operation? I'm willing to be convinced, but I just can't get past the idea that the people being framed for the crime would be spending a whole lot of energy protesting their innocence.

[Wombaticus Rex]

To my mind, the Russians aren't protesting loudly enough.

How does one "protest loudly enough" in 2014, though? Should they buy NYT ads? Hire some hip viral marketers from California to "gamify" their message?

It's remarkable that we have access to the Russian response at all.

[JackRiddler]

With Morty on this. It's how they'd do it, if they did.

[Morty]

Sorry, Jack. I'm on the internets, just doing what comes naturally (ie talking shit)...

How does one "protest loudly enough" in 2014, though? Should they buy NYT ads? Hire some hip viral marketers from California to "gamify" their message?

It's remarkable that we have access to the Russian response at all.

As far as I'm aware Putin has never flatly denied the things being said about him. It's not that his denial has been ignored, it's that he's never made one. Following the comments over at the Saker's blog, after Putin's first press conference a few days after the crash, the guys were saying (to paraphrase) "Oh, he looked really uncomfortable in that interview. What's that about?" "No wonder! Those bastards are trying to trap him into starting WW3! He's got the weight of the world on his shoulders!" "But why didn't he just rip their lies apart and tell them what really happened?!" "Ah, he's playing a long game. He's smart. He's letting them spin their lies until they've tied themselves in knots!" And so on.

And then with the Russian's Minister of Defense presentation the comments at Saker followed the same theme - "Ah, they could have come out with exactly how the Ukies/Americans brought the plane down, but they're just letting them twist in the breeze for a while!"

And Orlov's last post (titled "Saving Face") adds to the evidence. He's chiding the Ukrainians, saying they're too incompetent to pull off a false flag, but dumb enough to shoot MH17 down by accident. Humerous though it is, there could well be an elephant in the room he's in.

Also, Ray McGovern and the retired intelligence worker's piece over at Consortium News - that came across to me as them helping Robert Parry climb down from the strong position he has taken. "Hey Obama, we've been speculating the heck out of this one, how about you tell us what really happened!?"

[Oops. I've just noticed the other thread is back in action]

[smiths]

Land for gas: Merkel and Putin discussed secret deal could end Ukraine crisis

Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine.

The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.

More controversially, if Ms Merkel’s deal were to be acceptable to the Russians, the international community would need to recognise Crimea’s independence and its annexation by Russia, a move that some members of the United Nations might find difficult to stomach.

… the Ukrainian President would agree not to apply to join Nato. In return, President Putin would not seek to block or interfere with the Ukraine’s new trade relations with the European Union under a pact signed a few weeks ago.

However, these attempts by Ms Merkel to act as a broker between President Putin and the Ukraine’s President, Petro Poroshenko, were put on the back-burner following the shooting down of the MH17 plane in eastern Ukraine.

A spokesman for the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office said they had no knowledge of such negotiations taking place. However, the spokesman said he thought it highly unlikely that either the US or UK would agree to recognising Russian control over Crimea. There was no one available at the German embassy’s press office yesterday.

Reaching a solution to the ongoing dispute is pertinent for the Germans as Russia is their single biggest trading partner. Under Ms Merkel, the Russo-German axis has strengthened significantly and, until the plane shooting, her government had been staunchly against punitive sanctions for commercial but also diplomatic reasons."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 38764.html

On the evening the plane was shot down Hillary Clinton was interviewed:

Mrs. Clinton was asked what the U.S. should do in the face of “clear evidence” that Russia was implicated in the destruction of the jet.
Mrs. Clinton turned the question around, putting the focus on Europe.
“if there is evidence linking Russia to this, that should inspire the Europeans to do much more on three counts.”
Europe must toughen sanctions against Russia, find alternatives to Russian energy sources and work more closely with the U.S. in helping Ukraine oppose Russian aggression, she said.
“So, Europeans have to be the ones to take the lead on this,” she said. Referring to the downed plane, she said “It was a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over European territory. There should be outrage in European capitals.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/07/1 ... o-step-up/

Germany is in play