Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Project Willow » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:46 pm

American Dream » 21 Oct 2014 12:55 wrote:Even now today after much dialogue on the matter, I have no idea whatsoever what guideline you say I have violated


I've got some guidelines for you.

The charge or insinuation of "disinfo agent" can almost never be proven, and poisons and often ends meaningful discussion. Therefore suggesting a poster is purposefully spreading disinformation is not permitted.

Please refrain from personal attacks, and keep arguments issue-based.


You're a pro at combing the intent and effect of these two in highly manipulative and subtle enough ways so as not to blatantly cross a clear threshold. You're constantly issuing and repeating vague negative assertions about other posters, and sources, without providing any clear evidence. When challenged on your insinuations, you respond by making further insinuations against the challengers in an attempt to transfer the focus away from yourself. This behavior progressively degrades the existing relationships between posters here, and creates an aura of simmering and slippery hostility that serves as a barrier to newcomer participation.

You need not call someone a disinfo agent nazi outright to produce the same injurious effect, and considering how many years this repeated behavior has negatively affected this board, I feel mods are perfectly justified in enforcing the spirit of these guidelines as WR has done.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:56 pm

I did honestly state my point of view towards these things but none of it involved "disinfo agents" such as government spies:

American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:45 pm wrote:I think it should be clear that posters here come at all levels of consciousness- some are intoxicated out of their minds, some are out of their minds for other reasons, some are psychopaths clearly operating in bad faith, some we'll never know about one way or the other. I try not to assume too much, but I do strive to keep my eyes open.


I'm not very worried about spooks here but I do suspect/wonder if there are some sociopaths in the mix, to be quite honest. There is one- and only one- poster currently on the board who has troubled me pointing people here towards White Nationalist sites. I do think that there are some folks here who are more accepting of anti-Semitic Theory and/or racist militiaism than they should be, but I expect none of those long time presences to advocate Nazism, or anything like that.

However, there are regularly accusations that are thrown around here that do come much closer to the classic charge of "disinfo agent". For example earlier today on this very thread, some negative accusations against me about "gathering intel", or something.

I'm all for reining in such accusations in general- and more than willing to participate in good faith- but as always, the challenge is how to do so "across the board"...



.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby solace » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:02 pm

American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:35 pm wrote:I've got a lot of other work that I really need to focus on now, but I will say that I did already put up the link to Consortium News' postings on Putin after referencing the fact more than once that it is very easy it is for anyone who cares to see for themselves to check it out in that way.

Here though I have reproduced the first page of results filled with articles that are generally sympathetic to Putin and not very critical at all. As I have stated many times before, my personal position regarding Uncle Sam/NATO vs.Putin's Russia is very, very critical of both dueling powers and their clients/proxies/allies and more in favor a grassroots internationalist class struggle, along the general lines suggested by the autonomous/anarchist groups cited previously. The conspiracy sites exposed on the first page of this thread as being linked to a (paid) pro-Russian propaganda network do not generally acknowledge that Putin's Russia is a violent and domineering state about which we should be deeply distrusting, as is also true of Obama's U.S.A.



Was Putin Targeted for Mid-Air Assassination? | Consortiumnews
Aug 8, 2014 ... Exclusive: Official Washington's conventional wisdom on the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down blames Russian President Putin, but some U.S. ...


The 'We-Hate-Putin' Group Think | Consortiumnews
Mar 7, 2014 ... Exclusive: The only foreign policy show on the U.S. media dial this past week has been the bashing of Russian President Putin over the ...


Putin's Subtle Message to Obama | Consortiumnews
May 8, 2014 ... Exclusive: Russian President Putin sought to cool the rhetoric over Ukraine with an appeal for a postponed referendum in the east and an order ...


The Powerful 'Group Think' on Ukraine | Consortiumnews
Aug 18, 2014 ... Exclusive: Official Washington's “group think” on Ukraine – blaming everything on Russian President Putin – is so dominant that even ...
consortiumnews.com/2014/.../the-powerful-group-think-on-ukraine/

Twisting Putin's Words on Ukraine | Consortiumnews
May 2, 2014 ... Russian President Vladimir Putin delivering a speech on the Ukraine crisis in Moscow on March 18, 2014. (Russian government photo).


WPost's Anti-Putin 'Group Think' | Consortiumnews
Mar 20, 2014 ... On Thursday, the Post presented a solid phalanx of denunciations directed at Russian President Vladimir Putin. Across the two editorial pages, ...


Who's Telling the 'Big Lie' on Ukraine? | Consortiumnews
Sep 2, 2014 ... Exclusive: Official Washington draws the Ukraine crisis in black-and-white colors with Russian President Putin the bad guy and the U.S.-backed ...


Putin or Kerry: Who’s Delusional?
Mar 5, 2014 ... Yet, look what happens when Russia's President Vladimir Putin does what the U.S. news media should do, i.e. point out that “It's necessary to ...


Vladimir Putin | Consortiumnews
Sep 22, 2014 ... Exclusive: By driving a wedge between President Obama and President Putin over Ukraine, America's neocons and the mainstream media can ...


[url=http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/27/blaming-russia-as-flat-fact/]Blaming Russia as 'Flat Fact' | Consortiumnews

Jul 27, 2014 ... Exclusive: The American rush to judgment blaming ethnic Russian rebels and Russian President Putin for the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight ...



More at: http://www.google.com/cse?cx=0179303742 ... gsc.page=1


" it is very easy it is for anyone who cares to see for themselves to check it out in that way. "

Or, in these cases, not. That is, there are those who do not care to see for themselves, or won't see for themselves because they are inclined to think like Parry/wish to maintain Parry as a reputable source.

I think Parry's defense of Putin is blatantly obvious from the links you have provided.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:17 pm

My mind is a swamp, but I must say that I can't remember either way right now if there was/is evidence that Parry has funders linked to the Russian State. Certainly he is caught up in advocacy for the Russian State- that is manifest- but that is a different question than the one of who writes his paychecks.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby solace » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:44 pm

American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:17 pm wrote:My mind is a swamp, but I must say that I can't remember either way right now if there was/is evidence that Parry has funders linked to the Russian State. Certainly he is caught up in advocacy for the Russian State- that is manifest- but that is a different question than the one of who writes his paychecks.


I edited the original post to reflect my obvious guesstimate as opposed to proof thereof.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:51 pm

Ukraine: war as a means of social control

http://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/20 ... l-control/

One consequence of the war in Ukraine is that some so-called “lefts” have openly supported the separatist regimes established by gangs of armed fascists and other thugs. To my mind, this is a turning-point in the politics of these Stalinist (and some Trotskyist) groups. The logic is that if people have guns and they are on the opposite side from the USA, they deserve support. The fact that this is done in the name of “anti fascism” – an argument that dovetails completely with Kremlin propaganda that the Ukrainian government is fascist – makes it all the more obscene.

What events in Ukraine have reminded us is that, once working class people are armed with baseball bats and revolvers – let alone heavy artillery – and are turned against each other, it’s already very very late to start thinking of ways to promote social struggles. It is bad enough that some so-called socialists participate in this. It is worse that other so-called socialists sit in other countries, far away from the violence and the hurt that it brings to working class people, and not only applaud this activity but also use it to justify political alignment with the Kremlin.

Recognising war and military conflict as a means of social control means acknowledging its disastrous impact on social and labour movements. The widespread availability of lethal weapons in society amounts to a new type of hierarchy – of the armed against the unarmed – that reinforces the hierarchies of state against civilian population, capitalist class against working class and men against women.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Project Willow » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:07 am

American Dream » 21 Oct 2014 15:56 wrote:
I'm not very worried about spooks here but I do suspect/wonder if there are some sociopaths in the mix, to be quite honest. There is one- and only one- poster currently on the board who has troubled me pointing people here towards White Nationalist sites. I do think that there are some folks here who are more accepting of anti-Semitic Theory and/or racist militiaism than they should be, but I expect none of those long time presences to advocate Nazism, or anything like that.

However, there are regularly accusations that are thrown around here that do come much closer to the classic charge of "disinfo agent". For example earlier today on this very thread, some negative accusations against me about "gathering intel", or something.

I'm all for reining in such accusations in general- and more than willing to participate in good faith- but as always, the challenge is how to do so "across the board"...
.


:doh:

Dude, really, stop describing other people like units or disembodied others, or speaking of them like they're not in the room. If you have a beef with someone's views, approach them as you would wish others to approach you, with every faculty of understanding and empathy in full working order, Golden Rule and all of that, FFS.

And yeah, even though I can see this post as you taking time to state your true beliefs in response, on the other hand, you just responded to my plea to stop casting aspersions, by... casting aspersions. GRRRRR.

Hope that penny drops soon.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Project Willow » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:20 am

solace » 21 Oct 2014 16:02 wrote:I think Parry's defense of Putin is blatantly obvious from the links you have provided.


I don't see that from my admittedly limited reading. What I see is Parry making a case that the US propaganda machine has put Putin in its target range, centering him and Russia as a major enemy for the US, which is a different matter altogether. This is an honest debate that we might actually be able to have here if vague assertions about the moral character of perceived opponents and/or refusal to enter into respectful dialogue weren't getting in the way.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:26 am

From my point of view, the topic of casting aspersions was raised, and I tried to respond to that, when the honest truth is that I do have a bad feeling about certain usernames that have come and gone through here over the years. Some might say that I should just chill out and feel the Love, but the facts are I do take the social/political dimensions of what we do here very, very seriously. White Nationalism, anti-Semitic Theory, racist outreach that includes elements of the the conspiracy world- that kind of shit does not fly with me, for example.

If I'm talking in an impersonal way when airing my beefs, it's largely because I'm trying not to throw fuel on the fire, even though things I see here every day are real upsettin'. So it is hard.

There's more I could say but I'll let it go at that.

ON EDIT: Just added a couple of new names to my "ignore list". Probably that's for the best.



Project Willow » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:07 am wrote:
American Dream » 21 Oct 2014 15:56 wrote:
I'm not very worried about spooks here but I do suspect/wonder if there are some sociopaths in the mix, to be quite honest. There is one- and only one- poster currently on the board who has troubled me pointing people here towards White Nationalist sites. I do think that there are some folks here who are more accepting of anti-Semitic Theory and/or racist militiaism than they should be, but I expect none of those long time presences to advocate Nazism, or anything like that.

However, there are regularly accusations that are thrown around here that do come much closer to the classic charge of "disinfo agent". For example earlier today on this very thread, some negative accusations against me about "gathering intel", or something.

I'm all for reining in such accusations in general- and more than willing to participate in good faith- but as always, the challenge is how to do so "across the board"...
.


:doh:

Dude, really, stop describing other people like units or disembodied others, or speaking of them like they're not in the room. If you have a beef with someone's views, approach them as you would wish others to approach you, with every faculty of understanding and empathy in full working order, Golden Rule and all of that, FFS.

And yeah, even though I can see this post as you taking time to state your true beliefs in response, on the other hand, you just responded to my plea to stop casting aspersions, by... casting aspersions. GRRRRR.

Hope that penny drops soon.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Sounder » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:46 am

First sentence of AD's article....
One consequence of the war in Ukraine is that some so-called “lefts” have openly supported the separatist regimes established by gangs of armed fascists and other thugs.



This is rich. Pray tell, with guns and bombs coming their way, what would have been the ‘proper’ way for the folk from the East to respond?

But funny anyway, maybe soon there will be no left left. (joke on the PC core of the 'left')


So, OK, this is a thread about Russian propaganda, yet in the following Pravda article a narrative is found that is much more convincing than the tribalist incitement promoted by AD’s article..

The narrative is fairly simple, it is that if corrupt elements will play ball with transnational elites, your country will only be raped economically, but if you will not play ball, then the bombs will be dropping shortly.

Such a deal

Worth a click

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/13- ... e_syria-0/
..........However, one of the inconsistencies of Bashar al-Assad's father, who for many years recognized the PKK, was that, in the late 90s, he declared the PKK illegal with the obvious aim to form some sort of alliance with Turkey. Today, the same Ba'athist regime faces being crushed by an unholy alliance of Turkey, the TE and Zionists! In the meantime, the PYD Kurds of northern Syria had not agreed to co-operate with the NATO 'rebels' and--despite their pressures to cooperate with them-- did not join the Syrian National Council, which is controlled by the TE and is being groomed to succeed the Ba'athist regime, once it is overthrown. Instead, they had created self-governing cantons in many provinces of North-eastern Syria. This meant the formation of a de facto alliance between Ba'athists and PKK / PYD, i.e. of all national liberation movements in the region. Naturally, this alliance represented a mortal danger to the interests of the TE and the Zionists, and therefore had to be crushed! Particularly so as the Kurdish cantons were creating also the model of a different, really democratic model of social organization, as opposed to the parliamentary juntas established all over the world by the TE at the moment, within the context of the NWO, against which thousands of people were demonstrating over the weekend all over the world.[8]

In conclusion, what happens today at the Turkey-Syria border is that the jihadists of ISIS, who were initially armed and funded by the TE, the Gulf states and the Zionist elite, when they turned not only against Assad and the PYD Kurds, as their mission was supposed to be, but also against the TE's organs in the area, the TE had to intervene but in a way that would not jeopardize its strategic aims: regime change in Syria and the parallel dismantling of the cantons in North Syria. In fact, these are also the aims of the Turkish elite, which however does not want to fight single-handed on the ground the Syrian army. Yet, one could expect that once the TE agrees to a no-fly zone and a buffer zone in North Syria (i.e. once it agrees to play the role of the air force of a Turkish attack against Syria) it will probably accept the role the TE wants it to play, i.e. that of the infantry, so that the TE forces will not have to send 'boots on the ground' in Syria. At the same time, it seems that the PYD (if not also part of the PKK) perhaps confused by the agreement between Erdogan and Ocalan (who seemed to believe that the TE would really fight against ISIS) began begging the TE to bomb its jihadis enemies. Thus as the London Times reported:
"When Salih Muslim, the Syrian Kurds' political leader, begged for military aid to save Kobani, he was told that he could have it, but with strict conditions: dismantle the self-governing cantons established this year, renounce any claim to self-determination and allow the setting up of the buffer zone. He declined."[9]

The next act will therefore be played after the fall of Kobani and the inevitable massacre that will follow, which will persuade the "world community" to act against ISIS-that is, against the Syrian Ba'athist regime and the non-dependent on the TE part of the Kurdish movement...



Takis Fotopoulos is a political philosopher, editor of Society & Nature/Democracy and Nature/The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy. He has also been a columnist for the Athens Daily Eleftherotypia since 1990. Between 1969 and 1989 he was Senior Lecturer in Economics at the University of North London (formerly Polytechnic of North London). He is the author of over 25 books and over 1,000 articles, many of which have been translated into various languages.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:22 am

more propaganda brought to you by those notorious Putin apologists... me, Robert :P and the Bundesnachrichtendienst


Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case
October 20, 2014

Exclusive: for months, Western governments and media have accused Russia of supplying the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 killing 298 people. But now German intelligence has reportedly determined the missile came from a Ukrainian military base, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

The West’s case blaming Russia for the shoot-down of a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine last July appears to be crumbling as the German foreign intelligence agency has concluded that the anti-aircraft missile battery involved came from a Ukrainian military base, according to a report by the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel.

The Obama administration and other Western governments have pointed the finger of blame at Russia for supposedly supplying a sophisticated BUK missile system to ethnic Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine who then allegedly used the weapon on July 17 to shoot down what they thought was a Ukrainian military plane but turned out to be Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing all 298 people onboard.

The Russians denied providing the rebels with the weapon and the rebels denied shooting down the plane. But the tragedy gave the U.S. State Department the emotional leverage to get the European Union to impose tougher economic sanctions on Russia, touching off a trade war that has edged Europe toward a new recession.

But now the narrative has shifted. The German intelligence agency, the Bundesnachrichtendienst or BND, asserted that while it believes rebels were responsible for shooting down the plane, they supposedly did so with an anti-aircraft battery captured from a Ukrainian military base, according to Der Spiegel.

The BND also concluded that photos supplied by the Ukrainian government about the MH-17 tragedy “have been manipulated,” Der Spiegel reported. And, the BND disputed Russian government claims that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to MH-17 just before it crashed, the magazine said.

None of the BND’s evidence to support its conclusions has been made public — and I was subsequently told by a European official that the evidence was not as conclusive as the magazine article depicted.

Der Spiegel said the information given to members of a parliamentary committee on Oct. 8 included satellite images and other photography. What’s less clear, however, is how the BND could determine the precise command-and-control of the anti-aircraft missile system amid the chaotic military situation that existed in eastern Ukraine last July.

At the time, the Ukrainian army and allied militias were mounting an offensive against ethnic Russian rebels who were resisting a U.S.-backed coup regime that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych last February, touching off what quickly became a nasty civil war.

Spearheading Kiev’s summer offensive were pro-government militias, some of which were filled with neo-Nazi extremists and financed by Ukrainian billionaire oligarchs including Ihor Kolomoisky, who had been appointed governor of the southeastern Dnipropetrovsk Region. The ethnic Russian rebels also were a disorganized lot with poor command and control.

Rushing to Anti-Russian Judgment

Yet, the Obama administration was quick to pin the blame for the MH-17 crash on Russia and the rebels. Just three days after the crash, Secretary of State John Kerry went on all five Sunday talk shows fingering Russia and the rebels and citing evidence provided by the Ukrainian government through social media.

On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” David Gregory asked, “Are you bottom-lining here that Russia provided the weapon?”

Kerry: “There’s a story today confirming that, but we have not within the Administration made a determination. But it’s pretty clear when – there’s a build-up of extraordinary circumstantial evidence. I’m a former prosecutor. I’ve tried cases on circumstantial evidence; it’s powerful here.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Kerry’s Latest Reckless Rush to Judgment.”]

But some U.S. intelligence analysts offered conflicting assessments. After Kerry’s TV round-robin, the Los Angeles Times reported on a U.S. intelligence briefing given to several mainstream U.S. news outlets. The story said, “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Mystery of a Ukrainian ‘Defector,’”]

A source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that some analysts had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appeared Ukrainian government forces were to blame, although possibly a unit operating outside the direct command of Ukraine’s top officials.

The source specifically said the U.S. intelligence evidence did not implicate Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk but rather suggested an extremist element of the armed forces funded by one of Ukraine’s oligarchs.

Regarding the alleged Russian role, the source said the U.S. analysts had found no evidence that the Russian government had given the rebels a BUK missile system, which would be capable of shooting down a commercial airliner at 33,000 feet, the altitude of MH-17.

According to the Der Spiegel story, the BND reached the same conclusion, that Russia was not the source of the missile battery. But the BND and these U.S. analysts apparently differ on who they suspect fired the fateful missile. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Flight 17 Shoot-down Scenario Shifts”and “Was Putin Targeted for Mid-air Assassination?”]

What has been curious about the handling of the MH-17 case is the failure of the Obama administration and other Western governments to present whatever evidence they have, whether satellite, electronic or telephonic so the investigation can proceed more quickly in determining who was responsible.

By withholding this evidence for nearly three months, the West has benefited from keeping alive the anti-Russian propaganda – blaming Moscow and President Vladimir Putin for the tragedy – but the secrecy has given the perpetrators time to scatter and cover their tracks.

With Der Spiegel’s report, it’s now clearer why the delay and the secrecy. If the missile responsible for bringing down MH-17 came from a Ukrainian military base – not from the Russian government – then a very potent anti-Putin propaganda theme would be neutralized. More attention also would focus on whether the missile battery was really under the control of a rebel unit, as the BND suggests – or was in the hands of anti-rebel extremists.


Deadly Ukraine Crash: German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17

Burning debris at the crash site of Malaysian Airllines Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine on July 17: "It was pro-Russian separatists," the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND, has told parliament of the crash cause.Zoom
DPA
Burning debris at the crash site of Malaysian Airllines Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine on July 17: "It was pro-Russian separatists," the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND, has told parliament of the crash cause.
Germany's foreign intelligence agency says its review of the crash of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukrainian has concluded it was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.


After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

ANZEIGE

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.
Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.



Germans Blame Pro-Russian Separatists for Shooting Down MH17
A new intelligence report says the missile launcher used to take down the airliner was stolen from the Ukrainian military.
POLLY MOSENDZOCT 20 2014, 9:57 AM ET

Sergei Grits/AP
Germany's foreign intelligence agency, Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has determined that pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine brought down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 this summer. The agency investigated the incident through a series of satellite images and photographs coupled with intelligence from within the pro-Russian groups and the Ukrainian military.

Thus far, it has been widely believed Russian forces provided the separatists with both the missile and the launcher, but the new report suggest the rebels actually stole the launch system. German intelligence officers believe the separatists "captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17." Directly after the shooting occurred, but before it made global headlines, a number of separatists took responsibility for the incident.

Earlier this fall, the Dutch government determined that a "high energy object," such as a missile, took down the plane. The Dutch, however, did not directly name a party responsible. BND's president, Gerhard Schindler, was extremely direct in his accusations, simply telling Germany's Der Spiegel, "It was pro-Russian separatists."

Both the Russian and Ukrainian politicians have repeatedly denied responsibility for the tragedy, however, BND's findings took aim at both nations for their attempts to blame each other. Schindler said there was evidence that Ukrainian photos had been manipulated. (The photographs were presumably of the missile-launch site, though the exact images were not specified to the public.) His agency also determined "Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false."

As a result of BND's report, Germany's federal prosecutor has opened an investigation to determine whether those responsible, who have not been identified, committed a war crime. This news comes only days after Dutch and Australian officials pressured Russian President Vladimir Putin to sway separatists into providing investigators access to the MH17 crash site one more time before winter sets in and the crime scene is permanently ruined.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:33 pm

So here's a brief summary of my evolving thinking on these matters:

Information warfare is everywhere. Big programs are run by governments, rich people and their proxies, etc. and there are many variations on the theme. The allegations of an information warfare network run by and for the Russian State is not good news but should not be surprising. The U.S. State apparatus has its own that likely functions similarly, We know that the Israeli State is recruiting a volunteer army in addition to whatever paid staff they have and surely there are many others. So a Russian program in that vein would be nothing exceptional, per se.

I don't endorse getting involved with any such network. I know of no State that I would endorse and am generally critical of The State as an institution. It serves the interests of the Bourgeoisie and its allies in the Coordinator Class far, far more than the rest of us.

As to the clash of Empires in Eastern Europe and Eurasia generally: I support no Empire. I do support ordinary people fighting for what I consider good principles: striking workers fighting against bad bosses, unruly rabble opposing corrupt bureaucracies, ordinary people struggling for a world where their children don't have to die in a Rich Man's War, etc. I don't support fascists, even if they just describe themselves as nationalists or whatever.

Where does that leave me in "the West"? Supporting an anti-War, anti-Intervention, pro-Class Struggle position in general and supporting the positions of anti-Authoritarian groups like the Autonomous Workers Union of Kyiv and Moscow Autonomous Action in particular- for just so long as they continue to adhere to what I consider good principles.


I am pulling back from extensive discussion generally as I don't want to engage in fighting and for today in particular, as I have important deadlines. Thanks to everyone for their forbearance and of course, your mileage may vary.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby solace » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:12 pm

Project Willow » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:20 am wrote:
solace » 21 Oct 2014 16:02 wrote:I think Parry's defense of Putin is blatantly obvious from the links you have provided.


I don't see that from my admittedly limited reading. What I see is Parry making a case that the US propaganda machine has put Putin in its target range, centering him and Russia as a major enemy for the US, which is a different matter altogether. This is an honest debate that we might actually be able to have here if vague assertions about the moral character of perceived opponents and/or refusal to enter into respectful dialogue weren't getting in the way.


Well, there is that and of course given the nature of a board like this, most posters are going to agree with Parry's take. That is obvious. The question I ask is whether Parry ever criticizes Putin. The answer is no, he only ever defends him. Now he may be doing that ideologically but in the end it makes Parry one-sided and so, suspect.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:35 pm

I think there's a wee bit more to this "Parry loves Putin" that's not being divulged

let's see who else does not like Robert

Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

I am the moderator of the Marxism mailing list, where my various articles first appear. For information on how to subscribe to the list, go here.

I first became active in socialist politics in 1967, the beginning of my 11 years in the American Trotskyist movement. Despite my profound respect for Leon Trotsky as a Marxist thinker, I view the Trotskyist movement as such a sectarian mistake. Throughout most of the 80s, I was active in the Central American solidarity movement, first with CISPES and then with Tecnica, an organization that sent computer programmers and other skilled professionals to Nicaragua. The project eventually took root in southern Africa as well, where it worked with SWAPO and the ANC. More recently I have given workshops on the Internet to community and union groups, as well as moderating a Marxist mailing list on the Internet that can be linked to above.

Robert Parry is part of a cadre of investigative journalists who have put themselves at the disposal of the Kremlin on the matters of Syria and/or Ukraine. Like Walter Duranty who justified Stalin’s policies to NY Times readers in the 1930s, we see Parry, Seymour Hersh and Robert Fisk using journalistic tricks of the trade to make Putin seem like an innocent victim of a worldwide conspiracy involving the CIA, NATO, George Soros-type NGO’s, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, NY Times op-ed writers, and other miscreants bent on… Bent on what exactly?


The Whys Behind the Ukraine Crisis


..........

There are also other reasons to disdain Putin, from his bare-chested horseback riding to his retrograde policies on gay rights. But he is no Stalin and surely no Hitler.

The Neocons' 'Samson Option'

So, while it’s reasonable to see multiple motives behind the brinksmanship with Russia over Ukraine, the sheer recklessness of the confrontation has, to me, the feel of an ideology or an “ism,” where people are ready to risk it all for some larger vision that is central to their being.

That is why I have long considered the Ukraine crisis to be an outgrowth of the neoconservative obsession with Israel’s interests in the Middle East.

Not only did key neocons – the likes of Assistant Secretary Nuland and Sen. John McCain – put themselves at the center of the coup plotting last winter but the neocons had an overriding motive: they wanted to destroy the behind-the-scenes collaboration between President Obama and President Putin who had worked together to avert a U.S. bombing campaign against the Syrian government a year ago and then advanced negotiations with Iran over limiting but not eliminating its nuclear program.

Those Obama-Putin diplomatic initiatives frustrated the desires of Israeli officials and the neocons to engineer “regime change” in those two countries. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu even believed that bombing Iran’s nuclear plants was an “existential” necessity.

Further, there was the possibility that an expansion of the Obama-Putin cooperation could have supplanted Israel’s powerful position as a key arbiter of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. Thus, the Obama-Putin relationship had to be blown up – and the Ukraine crisis was the perfect explosive for the destruction. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Why Neocons Seek to Destabilize Russia.”]

Though I’m told that Obama now understands how the neocons and other hardliners outmaneuvered him over Ukraine, he has felt compelled to join in Official Washington’s endless Putin-bashing, causing a furious Putin to make clear that he cannot be counted on to assist Obama on tricky foreign policy predicaments like Syria and Iran.

As I wrote last April, “There is a ‘little-old-lady-who-swallowed-the-fly’ quality to neocon thinking. When one of their schemes goes bad, they simply move to a bigger, more dangerous scheme. If the Palestinians and Lebanon’s Hezbollah persist in annoying you and troubling Israel, you target their sponsors with ‘regime change’ – in Iraq, Syria and Iran. If your ‘regime change’ in Iraq goes badly, you escalate the subversion of Syria and the bankrupting of Iran.

“Just when you think you’ve cornered President Barack Obama into a massive bombing campaign against Syria – with a possible follow-on war against Iran – Putin steps in to give Obama a peaceful path out, getting Syria to surrender its chemical weapons and Iran to agree to constraints on its nuclear program. So, this Obama-Putin collaboration has become your new threat. That means you take aim at Ukraine, knowing its sensitivity to Russia.

“You support an uprising against elected President Viktor Yanukovych, even though neo-Nazi militias are needed to accomplish the actual coup. You get the U.S. State Department to immediately recognize the coup regime although it disenfranchises many people of eastern and southern Ukraine, where Yanukovych had his political base.

“When Putin steps in to protect the interests of those ethnic Russian populations and supports the secession of Crimea (endorsed by 96 percent of voters in a hastily called referendum), your target shifts again. Though you’ve succeeded in your plan to drive a wedge between Obama and Putin, Putin’s resistance to your Ukraine plans makes him the next focus of ‘regime change.’

“Your many friends in the mainstream U.S. news media begin to relentlessly demonize Putin with a propaganda barrage that would do a totalitarian state proud. The anti-Putin ‘group think’ is near total and any accusation – regardless of the absence of facts – is fine.”

Yet, by risking a potential nuclear confrontation with Russia — the equivalent of the old lady swallowing a horse – the neocons have moved beyond what can be described in a children’s ditty. It has become more like a global version of Israel’s “Samson Option,” the readiness to use nuclear weapons in a self-destructive commitment to eliminate your enemies whatever the cost to yourself.

But what is particularly shocking in this case is how virtually everyone in U.S. officialdom – and across the mainstream media spectrum – has bought into this madness.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Sounder » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:45 am

This:

The narrative is fairly simple, it is that if corrupt elements will play ball with transnational elites, your country will only be raped economically, but if you will not play ball, then the bombs will be dropping shortly.

Or:

Putin is a bad man because he does not support gay rights.

Pick your propaganda.



AD wrote...
Where does that leave me in "the West"? Supporting an anti-War, anti-Intervention, pro-Class Struggle position in general and supporting the positions of anti-Authoritarian groups like the Autonomous Workers Union of Kyiv and Moscow Autonomous Action in particular- for just so long as they continue to adhere to what I consider good principles.

I am pulling back from extensive discussion generally as I don't want to engage in fighting and for today in particular, as I have important deadlines. Thanks to everyone for their forbearance and of course, your mileage may vary.




Uhhh, not to be snippy or anything, but you cannot ‘pull back’ from something you have never done. As to saying; ‘I support no Empire’, a person can ‘say’ anything they want. But what one DOES determines what they actually support. In this case it is asserted that Putin (or Bashar or Gaddafi) bashing is to support Empire. Specifically, the Empire desired by transnational élites.


Robert Parry is part of a cadre of investigative journalists who have put themselves at the disposal of the Kremlin on the matters of Syria and/or Ukraine. Like Walter Duranty who justified Stalin’s policies to NY Times readers in the 1930s, we see Parry, Seymour Hersh and Robert Fisk using journalistic tricks of the trade to make Putin seem like an innocent victim of a worldwide conspiracy involving the CIA, NATO, George Soros-type NGO’s, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, NY Times op-ed writers, and other miscreants bent on… Bent on what exactly?


Good add SLAD. Who could ever imagine a worldwide conspiracy involving the CIA, NATO, George Soros-type NGO’s, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, NY Times op-ed writers, and other miscreants bent on using transnational elitist money to create and/or maintain empire. Geeze, those people probably think that the twin towers were taken down by laser beams.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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