Vaccine - Autism link

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby 82_28 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:31 am

I am NOT anti-vaxx, however having the vaccine in your system DOES NOT preclude you from being a carrier! The vaccine is for you and you alone! All the vaccines in the world can't keep you from transmitting whatever it is to others. That's my problem with vaccines. Number one is I don't want some foreign substance stabbed into me and number two, even if I did, it would not stop me from transmitting it period. Germs and shit like that are everywhere.

I think I said upthread that I have intimately worked around germs all my life. The key is washing of the hands. When you bartend you stick your fingers into multiple glasses at once, you get over the fact that you just touched the business end of silverware -- shit like that. I have gotten ZERO flu shots in my life and yet have never had the flu. Could I have spread the flu in the past? Sure. Doesn't mean because I was sick or showing symptoms. It means that I came into contact with hundreds of people a day. I am so unconcerned about this measles thing. FIVE people have been diagnosed with it they say in WA state. Seriously, so the fuck what? Out of 7 million people that is next to nothing.

If anything the way to "stop this outbreak" is to nightly disinfect shopping carts, baskets, doorknobs, keyboards and shit like that. Not vaccines, because once again, vaccine or no, you can still carry. It's basically elementary. Also I'm "sick" of being called an "anti-vaxxer" by liberal friends. I am in no way "militant", just that when it comes up, I beg to differ as far as compulsory vaccines. That's it.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby nashvillebrook » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:01 pm

Thanks Sounder :)

On "obvious bullshit" -- i read this thread from beginning to end yesterday, and by the time I got to page 6, I started feeling like a sports fan (brainball?) whose losing team finally got in the game. On page 7, we were starting to put points up on the board, and by the time I got to here it just felt like a whole lot of #win.

One thing that's really bothering me...the ridicule that's being employed on the "pro-CDC" side reeks of paid trolling. It's a carbon copy of the ridicule that was used in the attempts to destroy Ed Snowden. I don't have to say this here, but if there's better ideas/research/methods out there, by all means, let's discuss them. But when the entire debate consists of whole demographics being turned into animals frothing at the mouth, to me that's a sign that something is off.

The way this emerged in social media fully-formed creeps me out. It reminds me of the official story of Rwanda, and of how "hate radio" was used to turn the Hutus against the Tutsis...and so one day they just started carving each other up. As a young person I could never understand how a whole population could all of a sudden go from living along side people for ages to murdering them in the street. But the rhetoric I've seen around vaccines (VACCINES, for crying out loud) has given me insight into how that might have happened. Holy freaking shit.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby nashvillebrook » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:12 pm

So, I'm going to lay some shit down that's adjacent to this debate, but germane -- and, MY rigorous intuition is telling me that it's the reason why *any* talk of vaccines is being met with outsized animosity. Bear with me...it's a story worth knowing.

I have a "fatiguing syndrome" that's a pain in the ass, and that I medicate the best way I can going around doctors (the best way I can) in order to function. In the 15 years that I've been battling this bullshit, I've found a few things that help, none of which are "doctor recommended," except for short periods of time. I'm basically hacking my body in order to have a few years lived not in bed, and we'll see if that kills me 10, 20 or 30 sooner than expected. It's a chance I'm willing to take b/c one can stare at the ceiling fan for only so long. I've got work to do.

In the time that I spent in bed figuring things out I also read EVERYTHING I can get my eyes on that intersects with "fatiguing syndromes," which includes myalgic encephalomyelitis, chronic fatigue, lyme disease, lupus (all the autoimmune diseases, really), and fibromyalgia. Also a little here and there on systemic diseases that cause fatigue, but those seem to be dead ends for me. What I have is most certainly one of these "wacko" illnesses that you really DON'T want to walk into an ER with, especially if you're a women. SPOILER ALERT: they label you a drug-seeker, charge your insurance and send you home.

The thing about these fatiguing illnesses is that the CDC, NIH and FDA basically don't recognize them as existing. So the docs at the ERs are "only doing their jobs as best they can," when they label you a drug-seeker and send you home. A LONG time ago, the boys at the top of the food chain at the CDC proclaimed that indeed, we are a bunch of crazy ladies who need get laid or something. If you want to read a sad history of how the CDC suppressed research into fatiguing illness read Osler's Web -- it's only available in print, but you can used copies real cheap b/c it's super old. Here's a link -->

http://www.amazon.com/Oslers-Web-Labyrinth-Syndrome-Epidemic/dp/051770353X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424018205&sr=8-1&keywords=hillary+johnson+osler%27s+web


This is all set-up...you have to understand that fatiguing illness has been a big f'n deal for the deal for the CDC/NIH/FDA since the late 80s, and that they've done nothing but try to suppress research into it. Are your bullshit detectors up yet? Good.

So, despite the fact that it's nearly impossible to get funded to research me/cfs, and despite the fact that even if you DO get funded, you'll likely not get published, there have been some scientists and investors who have taken on the chore either b/c the problem fit with something else they were working on, OR b/c they have a family member suffering from the illness.

Enter Judy Mikovits. Dr. Mikovits has been cellular and molecular biologist for more than 30 years, directed programs on HIV, cancer, epigenetics, and neuroimmune disease, focusing on novel drug and diagnostic technologies. She holds a PhD in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from George Washington University. Her dissertation was on HIV latency and mechanisms of immune activation in monocytes.

Mikovits became interested in fatiguing illness b/c she had a hypothesis that what's going with me/cfs is similar to what happens in HIV -- and that she could apply her HIV research to me/cfs and voila! we'd make some headway on the disease. Simple enough.

But, in the course of her experience in this field (which basically ended her career) she discovered something that IF TRUE could be earth shattering. Like 12 Monkeys earth shattering. We've been using retroviruses to write and re-write viruses in recombinant DNA research. She found that every single time a virus is passed through a mouse in the recombinant process, there's the potential to produce a novel retrovirus.

In other words, the STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for recombinant retroviral research could be having a huge unintended effect of creating mega iterations of franken-viruses. So, that's one possible reason that the CDC/NIH might want to keep a lid on her research and any me/cfs/retroviral research that strafes this territory.

The other thing she found is that for people harboring retroviruses, vaccines have the potential to shut your immune down entirely. In her own words: "This might explain why vaccines lead to autism in some children because these viruses live and divide and grow in the lymphocytes, the immune response cells, the B and T cells. So when you give a vaccine you send your B and T cells into overdrive. That’s its job…Well, if you’re harboring one virus, and you replicate it a whole bunch, you’ve now broken the balance between the immune response and the virus. So you could have had the underlying virus and then amplified it with the vaccine and then set off the disease, such that your immune system could no longer control the infections and create an immune deficiency."

I'm trying to make this as simple as possible, which isn't fair b/c it's super complicated. But essentially you have a one-two punch. There's the hypothesis that recombinant retroviral research has unleashed all kinds of novel retroviruses, AND a second hypothesis about vaccines that (if and only if) you're harboring one of those viruses, AND you get a vaccine that activates it, THEN there's the POTENTIAL that this could bring down your immune system.

______________________


Her book Plague: One Scientist's Intrepid Search for the Truth about Human Retroviruses and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS), Autism, and Other Diseases came out late last year, and she'd been gaining some traction with promoting her ideas right about the time the recent vaccine freak out happened. I'm not saying the two are causative -- just associated.

http://www.amazon.com/Plague-Scientists-Intrepid-Retroviruses-Syndrome-ebook/dp/B00EBO2DNI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1424019963&sr=1-1&keywords=mikovits
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:51 pm

Plutonia » 26 Aug 2014 05:04 wrote:It looks to me like straightforward capitalist enterprise to me, not really remarkable except in that it blew up into such a humungous fracas.


Unlike Gardasil and universally recommended flu vaccinations. Right?
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:54 pm

PERSONAL HEALTH
Anti-Vaxxer Children's Book Is Getting Destroyed Hilariously by Amazon Trolls
"Melanie's Marvelous Measles" aren't seeming so marvelous anymore.
By Joanna Rothkopf / Salon February 9, 2015


In 2012, a proactive Australian anti-vaxxer named Stephanie Messenger self-published a children’s book called “Melanie’s Marvelous Measles.” With the book, Messenger endeavored to “educate children on the benefits of having measles and how you can heal from them naturally and successfully.” The book’s illustrated cover features a girl frolicking in a meadow with her stomach exposed, revealing a number of measles pocks all over her body. The whole thing is truly grotesque — so much so, that Amazon has put a disclaimer on the book’s description, noting that it is “provided by the publisher/author of this title and presents the subjective opinions of the publisher/author, which may not be substantiated.”

The book is made all the more relevant, now that a massive measles outbreak (due to the steadily growing vaccine “trutherism” movement) has infected more than 100 people in 15 states, including five babies at a Chicago daycare center.
So, the Internet is doing what the Internet does best: trolling the hell out of Messenger’s deeply flawed book through Amazon comments. Here are some of the best:

“Don’t overlook the lesser known Dr. Seuss books in this series – ‘Horton hears an air raid siren’, ‘Oh the places you’ll itch’, ‘How the Grinch caught Chlamydia’, ‘And to Think That I Contracted It on Mulberry Street’, ‘Skull Fracture Mayzie’, ‘Hop on your remaining foot’, ‘The 500 days in ICU of Bartholomew Cubbins’, and ‘If I Ran the Mortuary.’” –Nathaniel E. Parkinson II

“This book has been a wonderful distraction while I sit in the hospital to support my friend whose baby has this delightful disease. Since the child now has both pneumonia and encephalitis, I’ll have to check out the additional titles mentioned in Michael J. Gulgoski’s wonderful review. We’re going to be here a while. Unfortunately, I had to give this only one star because I hate the name Melanie.” –This Daydreamer
“Encephalitis is just your brain giving your skull a cuddle. This book is so short because soon after the main character succumbs to subacute sclerosing panencephalitis and dies.” –Rachel “Wednesday”

“Finally! A children’s book with an agenda I can get behind! I always thought I loved kids until I actually had one of my own and boy was I wrong! I researched anything and everything I could possibly do to get rid of the little brat, but I didn’t want to be arrested for murder and childhood cancer is just too darn unpredictable. Fortunately, I stumbled upon ‘Melanie’s Marvelous Measles’, and learned that there is a huge community of people who hate children as much as me! Thanks to Melanie, I was able to ignore my pediatrician’s recommendations to vaccinate my daughter before our trip to Disney World, all while acting like I want what is ‘best’ for my child.” –brittany

“What a fantastic book! It really provided hours of joy and comfort my sick little Bobby as he lay in bed with aches and pains and his 104 degree fever, not to mention the rashes, inflamed eyes, running nose, sore throat, constant coughing, and–Bobby’s favorite–mouth sores! He really loved reading this book over and over. Such a shame he’s dead now like that kid from the Nationwide ad. If there’s a downside, it would have to be this–I tried to buy copies for the kid with cancer from Bobby’s class that he infected, but the hospital wouldn’t take delivery, and then that child passed on before she could ever take delivery. So, really, the reviews should tell you to order early and often, before your children are six feet under.” –B. Gluckman

“Google image “measles” for a GREAT extra set of illustrations as you read along! While watching Melanie chase rainbows in her parents’ Beverly Hills garden, you can journey along with the millions of kids getting marvelous measles in the areas of the world without the luxury of herd immunity from that oh-so-terrible vaccine! Then you can see into the future of what your grandkids will be enjoying, as you continue to encourage others to reject vaccines that hold back the prevalence of viruses in the population. Gotta say, it’s a great time to study medicine in the USA – we get first-hand experience treating diseases that we’d have to travel to the third world to see. Thanks so much, Stephanie!” –Lyra
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:34 pm

Where in the hell are the "vaccines can do no wrong" cultists on the past 7 or so pages of this thread?

Where, oh where, are dear Orac's "skeptical" minions? How long are they going to let this little corner of the internet remain free of their "vaccines can do no wrong" propaganda? I'm utterly baffled by their absence. Are they just too busy with their Twitter and Facebook Disneyland?

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:35 pm

I salute you for the guts it has taken to go through that medical establishment BS.
I had something similar sounding but only for about 18 months back in the 90s.
It seemed to be precipitated by a bout of sunstroke Within a couple of weeks my energy was haywire. One day I would feel fine (not manic) , be able to go out clubbing. The next day I would not physically lift a blanket of me in bed. People in my physical space was like being burnt out through overload. A visit from a friend where theyt did little more than make a cup of tea, have it and go would be a burn-out level experience. I ended up trying EVERYTHING. TCM, float tanks, massage, hypnosis , acupuncture, group work, diet changes, fasts etc. NOTHING worked. I finally tried something that was neither emotional nor mental nor spiritual, but about exercise. I took up Pilates (the original type that uses Pilates weight machines, not the dreadful ersatz Jane Fonda workout stuff) I went to the studio almost every day for 90 minutes. Within a month ALL of the CFS/ME symptoms were gone. I was super sharp mentally and my body was probably the best I have ever had it, like a really fit dancers.
Strange thing though - years later I was in a relationship with someone who was diagnosed HIV+. I was not, but elected to get detailed bloodwork done. The results indicated that in my distant past, I had had... Hepatitis B. A couple of years later I got tested again and though I was still HIV - , I asked the doc (same hospital test center) about Hep B antibodies. He looked at me as if I as nuts. You have never had that, you have no Hep B antibodies showing. When I told me about the previous test that indicated I HAD been exposed, he said they were idiots. :)
Curiously, my then partner had been tested for HIV in Australia shortly before we met and it indicated she was negative, yet when she presented with AIDS-defining illness (NHL), her test indicated she had been infected many years ago... She herself had had a very bad mono type illness for a couple of years in the 80s


nashvillebrook » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:12 pm wrote:So, I'm going to lay some shit down that's adjacent to this debate, but germane -- and, MY rigorous intuition is telling me that it's the reason why *any* talk of vaccines is being met with outsized animosity. Bear with me...it's a story worth knowing.

I have a "fatiguing syndrome" that's a pain in the ass, and that I medicate the best way I can going around doctors (the best way I can) in order to function. In the 15 years that I've been battling this bullshit, I've found a few things that help, none of which are "doctor recommended," except for short periods of time. I'm basically hacking my body in order to have a few years lived not in bed, and we'll see if that kills me 10, 20 or 30 sooner than expected. It's a chance I'm willing to take b/c one can stare at the ceiling fan for only so long. I've got work to do.

In the time that I spent in bed figuring things out I also read EVERYTHING I can get my eyes on that intersects with "fatiguing syndromes," which includes myalgic encephalomyelitis, chronic fatigue, lyme disease, lupus (all the autoimmune diseases, really), and fibromyalgia. Also a little here and there on systemic diseases that cause fatigue, but those seem to be dead ends for me. What I have is most certainly one of these "wacko" illnesses that you really DON'T want to walk into an ER with, especially if you're a women. SPOILER ALERT: they label you a drug-seeker, charge your insurance and send you home.

The thing about these fatiguing illnesses is that the CDC, NIH and FDA basically don't recognize them as existing. So the docs at the ERs are "only doing their jobs as best they can," when they label you a drug-seeker and send you home. A LONG time ago, the boys at the top of the food chain at the CDC proclaimed that indeed, we are a bunch of crazy ladies who need get laid or something. If you want to read a sad history of how the CDC suppressed research into fatiguing illness read Osler's Web -- it's only available in print, but you can used copies real cheap b/c it's super old. Here's a link -->

http://www.amazon.com/Oslers-Web-Labyrinth-Syndrome-Epidemic/dp/051770353X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424018205&sr=8-1&keywords=hillary+johnson+osler%27s+web


This is all set-up...you have to understand that fatiguing illness has been a big f'n deal for the deal for the CDC/NIH/FDA since the late 80s, and that they've done nothing but try to suppress research into it. Are your bullshit detectors up yet? Good.

So, despite the fact that it's nearly impossible to get funded to research me/cfs, and despite the fact that even if you DO get funded, you'll likely not get published, there have been some scientists and investors who have taken on the chore either b/c the problem fit with something else they were working on, OR b/c they have a family member suffering from the illness.

Enter Judy Mikovits. Dr. Mikovits has been cellular and molecular biologist for more than 30 years, directed programs on HIV, cancer, epigenetics, and neuroimmune disease, focusing on novel drug and diagnostic technologies. She holds a PhD in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from George Washington University. Her dissertation was on HIV latency and mechanisms of immune activation in monocytes.

Mikovits became interested in fatiguing illness b/c she had a hypothesis that what's going with me/cfs is similar to what happens in HIV -- and that she could apply her HIV research to me/cfs and voila! we'd make some headway on the disease. Simple enough.

But, in the course of her experience in this field (which basically ended her career) she discovered something that IF TRUE could be earth shattering. Like 12 Monkeys earth shattering. We've been using retroviruses to write and re-write viruses in recombinant DNA research. She found that every single time a virus is passed through a mouse in the recombinant process, there's the potential to produce a novel retrovirus.

In other words, the STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for recombinant retroviral research could be having a huge unintended effect of creating mega iterations of franken-viruses. So, that's one possible reason that the CDC/NIH might want to keep a lid on her research and any me/cfs/retroviral research that strafes this territory.

The other thing she found is that for people harboring retroviruses, vaccines have the potential to shut your immune down entirely. In her own words: "This might explain why vaccines lead to autism in some children because these viruses live and divide and grow in the lymphocytes, the immune response cells, the B and T cells. So when you give a vaccine you send your B and T cells into overdrive. That’s its job…Well, if you’re harboring one virus, and you replicate it a whole bunch, you’ve now broken the balance between the immune response and the virus. So you could have had the underlying virus and then amplified it with the vaccine and then set off the disease, such that your immune system could no longer control the infections and create an immune deficiency."

I'm trying to make this as simple as possible, which isn't fair b/c it's super complicated. But essentially you have a one-two punch. There's the hypothesis that recombinant retroviral research has unleashed all kinds of novel retroviruses, AND a second hypothesis about vaccines that (if and only if) you're harboring one of those viruses, AND you get a vaccine that activates it, THEN there's the POTENTIAL that this could bring down your immune system.

______________________


Her book Plague: One Scientist's Intrepid Search for the Truth about Human Retroviruses and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS), Autism, and Other Diseases came out late last year, and she'd been gaining some traction with promoting her ideas right about the time the recent vaccine freak out happened. I'm not saying the two are causative -- just associated.

http://www.amazon.com/Plague-Scientists-Intrepid-Retroviruses-Syndrome-ebook/dp/B00EBO2DNI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1424019963&sr=1-1&keywords=mikovits
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby alwyn » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:44 pm


One thing that's really bothering me...the ridicule that's being employed on the "pro-CDC" side reeks of paid trolling. It's a carbon copy of the ridicule that was used in the attempts to destroy Ed Snowden. I don't have to say this here, but if there's better ideas/research/methods out there, by all means, let's discuss them. But when the entire debate consists of whole demographics being turned into animals frothing at the mouth, to me that's a sign that something is off.

The way this emerged in social media fully-formed creeps me out. It reminds me of the official story of Rwanda, and of how "hate radio" was used to turn the Hutus against the Tutsis...and so one day they just started carving each other up. As a young person I could never understand how a whole population could all of a sudden go from living along side people for ages to murdering them in the street. But the rhetoric I've seen around vaccines (VACCINES, for crying out loud) has given me insight into how that might have happened. Holy freaking shit.


THIS :praybow And then comes airlines wanting proof of vaccinations before flying, asking papers please. It is hard NOT to be paranoid when they make it so easy.... Fascist control of borders, (this includes control over travel within internal borders WHATEVER THE PRETEXT) is an act of war, no matter who commits it, but it is an act of war AGAINST the common weal. There is only one way to fight this war; you turn neighbor against neighbor. But first you have to neurolinguistically hack into the amygdalic lymbic survival circuit, and then target the enemy. In this case, the 'anti-vaxxers', which i propose now to call the immuno-norms, are being targeted. Contrary to the meme of popular belief, they ARE the educated 'intelligentsia' who, through personal experience or empathic research sounded an alarm. There's something wrong! We are losing children! There is SOMETHING ROTTEN IN DENMARK!

'First they came for', said the poem. First they co-opt the government, hijack the media, then they promote paid shills. Next the truly educated and articulate must be targeted, swept up in mass indignation, and likely imprisoned, and the most vocal executed. We are getting too smart (well, perhaps not, but i would like to think i speak for a silent significant segment) for Jew vs. whomever, the gays are getting marriage down, the potheads are getting legal weed, but the differently wired immuno-NORMS are being targeted by what are core-pirate, er corporate interests at best. (These immuno-norms, far from being targeted, should be protected, the safety of the human genetic code may depend upon it! Please!!! Organic all the way! You have no idea what you are doing, tinkering with the stuff of the gods. Our— if nothing else is— SACRED genetic code, our, dare i say it, GOD GIVEN BIRTH RIGHT to be as we are is being waged war on, in the name of scientific fuckery). If we were designed to eat heavy metals, we'd have a taste for them, not die when we eat or drink them, which is why the government (prompted by uppity mothers everywhere) limits their use in food, and yet people think nothing of putting toxic element, retrovirus laden only merk maybe knows what else, inside their most 'precious cargo'... precious cargo is a fucking corporate term! These are children. They are precious to us all! You can't have this aluminum shit in vaccines in water! Why do you want it in your kids? Because corporate backed science tells us so? Because we have been conditioned to listen to authority, and given unthinking acceptance to tradition? Because we only see a the piece of the research they want us to see? What if measles was part of the landscape? What if it modified the immune system to cope with our natural environment? What if it really was clean air, clean water, good nutritious food, everything in proper balance, that kept one from succumbing to the fatal aspects of what is ultimately indigenous? What if death from a childhood disease is an indication that the natural environment is out of whack? Duh? I'm not saying death of the vaxxed or not is good. I'm saying the problem may not be what we think it is.

If we had to have one vaccine, i'd want one to prevent the disease that makes people succumb to prompts for mass mayhem...Let me know when you have the double-blind study for that! So, forgive me when i rant against a corporate backed interest whose laws are against the national constitution, much less the bill of rights, who is immune from prosecution for it's mass experiment upon the wholly misunderstood yet maniacally tinkered with immune system of billions of profit units, who uses mass media to drum up the enemy du jour to mandate more profit for itself upon whatever pretext—forgive me while i rant, and say why should i believe this only latest war is for the common good? This is the state of affairs with vaccination today. What will it be tomorrow?



The fascists, of any generation, are the trans-national corporate interests. They are, by design and intent, the ultimate in anti-nature propaganda units, and they have always raped, pillaged, and plundered their way through whatever landscape they thought was between them and their petty-tyrant given profit. They have always been so, and are fought and regrouped from through the long generations by all who have felt the boot of the conqueror. Centuries...the british corporation model has much to answer for, although i don't by any stretch of the imagination think that is where it started...greed by any other model or name still stinks and drives profits in corporate boardrooms today.


It is hard when the targets of such social manipulation are so blind as they will not see, but that is the core of the problem. This sudden, epidemic, US VS. THEM is highly indicative of fascist engineering. Social, or grassroots movement tends to be a little more organic, along the lines of hey, did you hear? Jimmy's got measles! Really? Wow, there hasn't been a case of measles around here in, i dunno, years! I guess we should look into that...maybe we'll look into the health and sanitation issues...is JImmy getting enough to eat? How's Jimmy's vitamin A? Neighbors check in with their neighbors in healthy societies, and help each other out. This sudden fright for some now totally unseen enemy, micro engineered down to germs, and who might be carrying them...you never know! Take the kool-aid ™ while we give you your papers to prove you're safe. It is the ultimate war on terror. Yeah, i'm suspicious of this sudden blow up of a non-issue. Maybe you should be too.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:11 pm

It's difficult to think of a single issue about which it is so difficult to have a rational, reasonable conversation with conventional conversational give and take.

Nobody who thinks vaccines are sacrosanct actually engages in any discussion about their safety, necessity or efficacy. Instead, they all read from the same playbook. The playbook was written to shout down and marginalize people who are emotionally antivaccine because they think their kids or the kids of someone they know were hurt by vaccines.

I don't have any kids and I don't personally know anybody who thinks their kid was hurt by vaccines. I just know when something obviously smells rancid (such as needless mercury in multidose flu and monococcal vaccines) and, for some reason, everybody keeps pretending that it smells like roses.

Here are my major issues with and criticisms of vaccines:

1) None of them should come spiked with needless mercury.

2) Testing should be required on the entire schedule rather than just on single vaccines. Note that I fully admit that this testing could potentially exonerate vaccines as a strongly contributing factor for the health issues some anti-vaccination advocate blame on them. But this research needs to be done.

3) New vaccines such as the annual flu vaccine and Gardasil should have to demonstrate that their benefits actually outweigh their costs and risks before they are recommended, much less mandated universally or for large segments of the population.

4) More research is needed before the mercury and aluminum salts in vaccines can be ruled out as contributing factors to neurological problems.

All of these criticisms and concerns are 100% scientific and conservative. But if you bring them up to the "anti-vaxxers are despicable murderers" crowd, you are treated as if you are arguing for eating babies.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby slomo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:23 pm

alwyn » 15 Feb 2015 00:02 wrote:Papers anyone? Can it get any more fascist than this? Is this what it's about, to shoot us all up with stuff that will KO our immune system, and make us stupid? Because I swear t god, all those vaxxers are fucking idiots. I didn't think i would call them the names they call me but this could do it.

http://examiner.com.co/airlines-conside ... ir-travel/

Traveling by air may get even more complicated if a reported plan by major carrier airlines requiring passengers to be vaccinated comes to fruition. After the increasing problem of unvaccinated individuals contracting and spreading communicable diseases, airlines hope to be a stopgap solution to preventing larger outbreaks. An inside source with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) suggests that, “Multiple major carriers have begun discussing requiring vaccination records for all passengers before allowing them to board a flight.”

The FAA source, speaking on condition of anonymity explains that many of the airlines have, “had it with the anti-vaccination arguments and don’t want to be left with the guilt and partial responsibility when a preventable disease spreads by way of air travel.” It is assumed that a valid vaccination record will be required upon check in before travelers embark on their journey. “It’ll add another step to the flight process, but the airlines, so far, are willing to absorb any costs associated with it,” said the FAA source. It is not expected to impact the already beleaguered Transportation Security Administration as this would be an elective requirement and not a federally mandated change.

The 2014 – 2015 U.S. measles outbreak spread to seven states and is widely believed to have been tied to vacationers at the Disneyland amusement park in Anaheim, California. Many speculate the spread of the disease outside of California was exacerbated due to vacationing families traveling by air. By requiring a valid vaccination record, the airlines would hope to minimize the wanton spread of infectious disease by keeping potential disease carrying individuals off all flights originating and terminating in the United States.

“The airlines are using the term ‘at risk individual’ up to this point to describe who they are targeting,” explains the FAA source. “I take that to mean individuals who are unvaccinated themselves or those who refuse to vaccinate their children. They (the airlines) realize this is a hot button issue at the moment, however, they allegedly feel this is the only way they can do their part to help keep their customers and employees safe and healthy. One ‘higher up’ with a major carrier said something to the effect of ‘this is the responsible thing to do’.”

Speculation is that the airlines would consider an option for frequent fliers to pre-register their vaccination status to avoid any further delays. The FAA source wants to make it clear that, “Again, this isn’t a federal mandate so the FAA is just paying attention to the discussion and giving our views when asked.”

The source at the FAA wouldn’t commit to a statement on whether other mass transit carriers, such as railroads or bus lines, would follow suit if this new tactic is implemented by the airlines


I can think of few more ominous portents than setting a precedent for linking the right to meaningfully travel with something so private as ones medical record.

This is the kind of thing I've been worried the vaccine spectacle would spawn.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby 82_28 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:07 pm

RE Gardasil: Way before I felt one way or the other about it, I begged my girlfriend at the time to not get it. She said she had to because her mother was begging/admonishing her in the other direction. Then one day she went and "had it done". I just said at the time that you have no fucking idea what that shit is and don't do it. If some fucking cancer (cervical) can be vaccinated against, then shouldn't they all be? Now they say dudes should consider getting the vaccine as well.

Another is that I have no money to pay for this recockulous obamacare deadline that I have to meet in order to get my "refund" next year. Today is the day! Sign up and make a payment! I pay taxes! After which, the "exchanges" "close" later on today. I'm as left as they come but this ACA is a total scam and do not view it as an "improvement". Don't give me no deadline of when I can or can't "sign up" for something I view as a scam. If I don't want to be penalized, I have to act now! What a load of shit. It is all one grand capitalist funnel.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:10 pm

slomo » 15 Feb 2015 22:23 wrote:
alwyn » 15 Feb 2015 00:02 wrote:Papers anyone? Can it get any more fascist than this? Is this what it's about, to shoot us all up with stuff that will KO our immune system, and make us stupid? Because I swear t god, all those vaxxers are fucking idiots. I didn't think i would call them the names they call me but this could do it.

http://examiner.com.co/airlines-conside ... ir-travel/

Traveling by air may get even more complicated if a reported plan by major carrier airlines requiring passengers to be vaccinated comes to fruition. After the increasing problem of unvaccinated individuals contracting and spreading communicable diseases, airlines hope to be a stopgap solution to preventing larger outbreaks. An inside source with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) suggests that, “Multiple major carriers have begun discussing requiring vaccination records for all passengers before allowing them to board a flight.”

The FAA source, speaking on condition of anonymity explains that many of the airlines have, “had it with the anti-vaccination arguments and don’t want to be left with the guilt and partial responsibility when a preventable disease spreads by way of air travel.” It is assumed that a valid vaccination record will be required upon check in before travelers embark on their journey. “It’ll add another step to the flight process, but the airlines, so far, are willing to absorb any costs associated with it,” said the FAA source. It is not expected to impact the already beleaguered Transportation Security Administration as this would be an elective requirement and not a federally mandated change.

The 2014 – 2015 U.S. measles outbreak spread to seven states and is widely believed to have been tied to vacationers at the Disneyland amusement park in Anaheim, California. Many speculate the spread of the disease outside of California was exacerbated due to vacationing families traveling by air. By requiring a valid vaccination record, the airlines would hope to minimize the wanton spread of infectious disease by keeping potential disease carrying individuals off all flights originating and terminating in the United States.

“The airlines are using the term ‘at risk individual’ up to this point to describe who they are targeting,” explains the FAA source. “I take that to mean individuals who are unvaccinated themselves or those who refuse to vaccinate their children. They (the airlines) realize this is a hot button issue at the moment, however, they allegedly feel this is the only way they can do their part to help keep their customers and employees safe and healthy. One ‘higher up’ with a major carrier said something to the effect of ‘this is the responsible thing to do’.”

Speculation is that the airlines would consider an option for frequent fliers to pre-register their vaccination status to avoid any further delays. The FAA source wants to make it clear that, “Again, this isn’t a federal mandate so the FAA is just paying attention to the discussion and giving our views when asked.”

The source at the FAA wouldn’t commit to a statement on whether other mass transit carriers, such as railroads or bus lines, would follow suit if this new tactic is implemented by the airlines


I can think of few more ominous portents than setting a precedent for linking the right to meaningfully travel with something so private as ones medical record.

This is the kind of thing I've been worried the vaccine spectacle would spawn.


Agreed. But the cited article first appeared on a Ted Cruz & Sarah Palin "news" site, so please take it with a sea of salt.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:14 pm

82_28 » 15 Feb 2015 23:07 wrote:RE Gardasil: Way before I felt one way or the other about it, I begged my girlfriend at the time to not get it. She said she had to because her mother was begging/admonishing her in the other direction. Then one day she went and "had it done". I just said at the time that you have no fucking idea what that shit is and don't do it. If some fucking cancer (cervical) can be vaccinated against, then shouldn't they all be? Now they say dudes should consider getting the vaccine as well.

Another is that I have no money to pay for this recockulous obamacare deadline that I have to meet in order to get my "refund" next year. Today is the day! Sign up and make a payment! I pay taxes! After which, the "exchanges" "close" later on today. I'm as left as they come but this ACA is a total scam and do not view it as an "improvement". Don't give me no deadline of when I can or can't "sign up" for something I view as a scam. If I don't want to be penalized, I have to act now! What a load of shit. It is all one grand capitalist funnel.


Yep. Obama's healthcare "reform" in this country means forcing people to give money they don't have to corporations who do not not even provide healthcare.

Just like Clinton's welfare "reform" was a scam to subsidize corporations (mostly fast food and the like) who hire unskilled workers to perform minimum wage jobs.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby alwyn » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:27 pm


Agreed. But the cited article first appeared on a Ted Cruz & Sarah Palin "news" site, so please take it with a sea of salt.


holy hoist on the petard of my own manufactured response, batman! :starz:

Thanks ever so much for the reminder that i must ALWAYS uplink to the source article. The examiner USED to be the name of the big city newspaper when i was younger, and i was carried off by the aura of social legitimacy that august title conferred, and did not double check my source, i guess my FEAR made it seem too plausible. Good Lesson. :yay
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby slomo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:40 pm

stickdog99 » 15 Feb 2015 15:10 wrote:
slomo » 15 Feb 2015 22:23 wrote:I can think of few more ominous portents than setting a precedent for linking the right to meaningfully travel with something so private as ones medical record.

This is the kind of thing I've been worried the vaccine spectacle would spawn.


Agreed. But the cited article first appeared on a Ted Cruz & Sarah Palin "news" site, so please take it with a sea of salt.


That's a relief. For now, anyway. Still, I predict the endgame is something along these lines. Won't happen immediately, but perhaps within five years...
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