NBC: Gun Rights Massively Expanding(Powder Keg?)

[seemslikeadream]

Man Leaves Car To Fatally Shoot Panhandler In Wheelchair

[operator kos]

[82_28]

I like you, Kos and don't want to get into a stupid argument. But as I have said, I have spent almost 20 years "protecting" money and merchandise without a gun and all the while with doors unlocked at work and at home. In all this time, I have never needed a gun.

[IanEye]

Who gets to define "crime" in your fancy little chart?

[seemslikeadream]

Your mother and father will sweat and they'll save
To build you a coffin and dig you a grave
Hush-a-bye little one, never you weep
For we've got a toy that can put you to sleep

Somebody's baby is not coming back

[Wombaticus Rex]

Every death is a tragedy.

Every tragedy does not require a legislative response.

This is exactly the kind of "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!," stimulus-response activism that has made the modern United States Federal Code possible.

Until anti-gun lobbyists finish banning cars, it's going to be hard to take their concerns seriously on an objective, numbers-based level.

But of course, their arguments are seldom based in numbers.

Every death is a tragedy.

[seemslikeadream]

just get used to it....somebody's baby is not coming back


guns are made to kill

[brainpanhandler]

Every death is a tragedy.

Every tragedy does not require a legislative response.

This is exactly the kind of "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!," stimulus-response activism that has made the modern United States Federal Code possible.

Until anti-gun lobbyists finish banning cars, it's going to be hard to take their concerns seriously on an objective, numbers-based level.

But of course, their arguments are seldom based in numbers.

Every death is a tragedy.

It's also the sort of fuzzy logic which makes actually effective, reasonable gun regulation more difficult to pass. Weak, fallacious, appeal to emotion arguments for gun banning make sensible arguments for gun regulation harder to present to the public and gain democratic consensus.

[seemslikeadream]

exactly who here has lobbied for banning guns?

[Wombaticus Rex]

That's certainly been true here in Vermont, where there's actually a ton of grassroots support from gun owners and especially hunters for reasonable regulations. The problem is they keep getting alienated by Bloomberg rhetoric -- which is a nationwide, lavishly funded campign, so it's inevitable. We've got a lot of libs here in Burlington who have never owned a gun and frankly, never even known someone who owned a gun. Their contributions the conversation are, predictably, tone-deaf and mostly laundered from MSNBC talking heads. That doesn't help, either.

Still, Vermont is one of the single most feral, wild west states in terms of unrestricted gun rights. Because we're also a staggeringly low-crime and homogenous cracker population, that "Save the Children" shit cannot fly here. We're proof, and have been for decades, that crime is cultural, not a simple matter of access to technology.

However, Vermont's culture has been completely undone by our heroin epidemic, which is a curiously double-edged sword. Gun owners recognize that their collection could be stolen tomorrow and used in a murder a year from now. Hunters recognize their traditional rite of passage has really nothing to do with the weird hybrid "gun culture" we've got now in an increasingly diverse and urban/suburbanized population. (Which, to be clear, is a reference to all the college kids from out of state we see at the firing range these days with trust fund worth of artillery.)

And, hilariously, folks who always thought gun ownership was a clear-cut sign of mental illness are contemplating how to protect their homes in an environment where police response time hovers at around 60+ minutes. Every Democrat is only one mugging away...

[operator kos]

@82_28
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politi ... achine-gun
Gun Instructor Accidentally Shot Dead by Nine-Year-Old Girl with an Uzi Submachine Gun

see here, we dun gotta train our children with automatic weapons tho! Obama HUSSEIN Benghazi wants to take all our darn guns!!!!!

You are exploiting a tragedy which is the exception rather than the rule as the numbers clearly show. You are also quick to imply that all gun owners are irresponsible, ignorant rednecks. These are both cheap and emotional propaganda tactics. I really expect better of people on this board.

Who gets to define "crime" in your fancy little chart?

You are also exploiting a tragedy which is the exception rather than the rule. Again, this is the sort of cheap emotional propaganda that people use when they know that they don't have the facts on their side.

Man Leaves Car To Fatally Shoot Panhandler In Wheelchair

You are also exploiting a tragedy which is the exception rather than the rule. Again, this is the sort of cheap emotional propaganda that people use when they know that they don't have the facts on their side.

I like you, Kos and don't want to get into a stupid argument. But as I have said, I have spent almost 20 years "protecting" money and merchandise without a gun and all the while with doors unlocked at work and at home. In all this time, I have never needed a gun.

So don't. I'm truly pleased that you've had a charmed life in that respect. As the numbers clearly show, many other people have not been as fortunate. I live in an urban environment with a very high violent crime rate which is coupled with a notoriously corrupt, racist, incompetent, and inefficient police force. If I need protection, the police aren't going to provide it, nor would I want them to. I don't want my right to self defense to be compromised because some people have an irrational fear of guns based on a skewed perception of how they are actually used in this country.


The bottom line for me is this: The facts clearly show that guns in the hands of civilians are used to prevent tragedies far more often than they are used to cause tragedies. Smoking, junk food, and cars all cause more deaths per year by orders of magnitude, and yet we don't see anything approaching the level of hysterical fear-mongering around these social and environmental ills.

In my mind, gun control proponents are very much like proponents of the official 9/11 narrative. They know that the facts are not on their side, so they routinely and shamelessly resort to cheap emotional propaganda. The purpose of this propaganda is the same in both cases- to inspire fear and to disempower the citizens of this country.

[82_28]

Why is it that you are the only one who is right in this discussion? I too live in a city with quite a bit of sketchy violence. My friend who I write with and he also happens to run Hollow Earth Radio has his studio in probably the most dangerous area of Seattle and people come and go. Kids mostly as it is basically an outreach nonprofit for the benefit of musicians and artist. Sure, you take a precaution or two, but guns are unwelcome for obvious reasons. Another example, Willow lives in perhaps the most sketchy area of Seattle. She doesn't run around with a firearm even though her neighbor was heinously raped. Aaaand repeating myself, I have bartended for 15-20 years, often, as I said into the wee hours of the night. Sketchy people all the time. Did I ever feel the need for a gun? NOPE.

I have "bounced" gigs with scetchozoids everywhere. Did I need a gun? Again, NOPE.

To answer your assertion that I am "anti-gun", again NOPE. Living in the west a gun, is looked at the same as fishing pole. Do motherfuckers roll around the city surrounded on all sides by water with fishing poles should they spot a fish? Why is a real gun accepted while if I wanted to put a non lethal pellet gun in my pocket I would get arrested? Again, again, again! Jesus. I don't want to be around guns and I don't want young children to see walking around with a gun as normal. Keep your guns, bro. Hunt with them, go shoot your clay pidgeons, target shoot at the range, keep it around for whatever. Just don't take it into public spaces where it is TOTALLY not needed! Jesus.

I guess I will never get the "butt hurtery" of gun people. You're the one with the problem, most people actually are just fine without them while out and about. Even in crime ridden areas.

[seemslikeadream]

by all means if you are so paranoid keep your gun ..I couldn't care less... I on the other hand do not live in fear....I like it that way

Statistics on Gun Deaths & Injuries
Posted on November 16, 2012

In 2010, guns took the lives of 31,076 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. This is the equivalent of more than 85 deaths each day and more than three deaths each hour.1
73,505 Americans were treated in hospital emergency departments for non-fatal gunshot wounds in 2010.2
Firearms were the third-leading cause of injury-related deaths nationwide in 2010, following poisoning and motor vehicle accidents.3
Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period.4
In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks.5
Homicide
Guns were used in 11,078 homicides in the U.S. in 2010, comprising almost 35% of all gun deaths, and over 68% of all homicides.6
On average, 33 gun homicides were committed each day for the years 2005-2010.7
Regions and states with higher rates of gun ownership have significantly higher rates of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership.8
Where guns are prevalent, there are significantly more homicides, particularly gun homicides.9
Suicide
Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths.10
Over 50% of all suicides are committed with a firearm.11
On average, 49 gun suicides were committed each day for the years 2005-2010.12
White males, about 40% of the U.S. population, accounted for over 80% of firearm suicides in 2010.13
A study of California handgun purchasers found that in the first year after the purchase of a handgun, suicide was the leading cause of death among the purchasers.14
Firearms were used in nearly 44% of suicide deaths among persons under age 25 in 2010.15
More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend.16
The risk of suicide increases in homes where guns are kept loaded and/or unlocked.17
Unintentional Deaths and Injuries
In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.18
From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.19
Over 1,300 victims of unintentional shootings for the period 2005–2010 were under 25 years of age.20
People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.21
A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six.22
The U.S. General Accounting Office has estimated that 31% of unintentional deaths caused by firearms might be prevented by the addition of two devices: a child-proof safety lock (8%) and a loading indicator (23%).23

America has a problem with gun violence

One in three people in the U.S. know someone who has been shot.1
On average, 32 Americans are murdered with guns every day and 140 are treated for a gun assault in an emergency room.2
Every day on average, 51 people kill themselves with a firearm, and 45 people are shot or killed in an accident with a gun.3
The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that are our peers in wealth and population.4
A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used to kill or injure in a domestic homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.5
Gun Violence Takes a Massive Toll on American Children

More than one in five U.S. teenagers (ages 14 to 17) report having witnessed a shooting.6
An average of eight children and teens under the age of 20 are killed by guns every day.7
American children die by guns 11 times as often as children in other high-income countries.8
Youth (ages 0 to 19) in the most rural U.S. counties are as likely to die from a gunshot as those living in the most urban counties. Rural children die of more gun suicides and unintentional shooting deaths. Urban children die more often of gun homicides.9
Firearm homicide is the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle crashes) for young people ages 1-19 in the U.S.10
In 2007, more pre-school-aged children (85) were killed by guns than police officers were killed in the line of duty.11

[82_28]

I just noticed I have a baseball bat. For an experiment (I actually thought about doing this just now) I would go down to the store to shop for food holding a bat. How can me holding a bat for protection be more unacceptable then strapping a legal gun to my side?

[operator kos]

by all means if you are so paranoid keep your gun ..I couldn't care less... I on the other hand do not live in fear....I like it that way

By all means, continue to insult me by saying that I only own guns because I'm "paranoid" and "live in fear". I'm sure take heed of your arguments that way.

As for you gun statistics, they both come from organizations that are part of the gun-control lobby. But you know what- I'll accept them for the sake of argument. The only problem is the glaring omission from them... the amount of times that guns are actually used defensively. They're listing all of the bad things that come from guns and none of the good things. Hardly fair and balanced. So let me fill in the data that your agenda-driven sources left out...

The N.R.A. (which I don't like, for the record) claims that guns are used defensively 2-2.5 million times per year. I'll be the first to admit that that figure is likely bogus and inflated. On the other hand, even the pro-gun-control Violence Policy Center admits that guns are used defensively around 68,000 times per year- more than twice as many times as people are killed by guns per year. source

A more realistic figure, between the N.R.A.'s and V.P.C.'s numbers is 250,000 - 370,000. source

The CDC did a study on gun violence last year and had the following to say:

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” states.

...

The CDC’s findings - that guns are an effective and often used crime deterrent and that most firearm incidents are not fatal - could affect the future of gun violence research.

source

So yeah, guns do seem horrible and scary when you only present one side of the story. But, and this is the last time I'll say it, when you actually look at all of the facts and statistics, civilian-owned guns do a lot more good than harm in America.