Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby AlicetheKurious » Mon May 25, 2015 6:37 am

Your average American today is nothing like your average American in the early 1970s. These are the people who saw photographs of their troops engaging in sadistic sexual and other forms of torture, including siccing attack dogs on naked, bound prisoners. They're the same people who were fed a pack of lies about the invasion of Iraq and the 9/11 attacks that wouldn't fool a child. They've seen videos of their police murdering unarmed citizens. They've been informed that their government spies on and records their private correspondence, and monitors practically everything they watch or do. They're aware that their "democratic" election campaigns are determined by a handful of billionaires, some of whose allegiance is to a foreign country. They've seen billions and billions of their tax dollars flow into the pockets of a few banksters and corporate executives whose loot is kept in offshore tax havens, while their own quality of life and infrastructure deteriorates around them. And that's just a small sample of all the hits they've already taken, but which only seem to push them deeper into a dissociative state in which they feel and therefore are helpless, against forces they don't understand and frankly don't want to understand. It's too much trouble, it's too complicated, it's too hard. The social isolation and alienation, the ignorance of history and politics that increasingly characterizes American individuals is also a factor that makes effective action almost impossible.

Learning that their government is literally one and the same as ISIS wouldn't even raise a blip.
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby Nordic » Tue May 26, 2015 12:13 am

Well the question is getting them to believe it. If the evidence were so obvious and blatant that it was unarguable.

But yeah that's probably never gonna happen.

What amazes me is the denial. Just pure unadulterated denial. No, my husband isn't molesting our daughter. No, I don't have inoperable lung cancer.

That kind of denial. There's a step after that. It's anger.

If we can ever get people to that step.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue May 26, 2015 3:55 am

Well, denial is a defense mechanism that kicks in when people feel overwhelmed, and a lot of resources are devoted to ensure that they do.

Also, plenty of Americans already believe that Obama is a "secret Muslim", leading a jihadist conspiracy against the US of A, so they're already convinced that ISIS is led from the White House, by the Black President, and getting rid of him should solve the problem.

Finally, anger that isn't rooted in knowledge and tempered with critical and strategic thinking and planning can also be manipulated, and can be very useful to those who are experts in such things.
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby 8bitagent » Tue May 26, 2015 7:01 am

HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!

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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby Luther Blissett » Tue May 26, 2015 11:37 am

AlicetheKurious » Mon May 25, 2015 5:37 am wrote:Your average American today is nothing like your average American in the early 1970s. These are the people who saw photographs of their troops engaging in sadistic sexual and other forms of torture, including siccing attack dogs on naked, bound prisoners. They're the same people who were fed a pack of lies about the invasion of Iraq and the 9/11 attacks that wouldn't fool a child. They've seen videos of their police murdering unarmed citizens. They've been informed that their government spies on and records their private correspondence, and monitors practically everything they watch or do. They're aware that their "democratic" election campaigns are determined by a handful of billionaires, some of whose allegiance is to a foreign country. They've seen billions and billions of their tax dollars flow into the pockets of a few banksters and corporate executives whose loot is kept in offshore tax havens, while their own quality of life and infrastructure deteriorates around them. And that's just a small sample of all the hits they've already taken, but which only seem to push them deeper into a dissociative state in which they feel and therefore are helpless, against forces they don't understand and frankly don't want to understand. It's too much trouble, it's too complicated, it's too hard. The social isolation and alienation, the ignorance of history and politics that increasingly characterizes American individuals is also a factor that makes effective action almost impossible.

Learning that their government is literally one and the same as ISIS wouldn't even raise a blip.


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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed May 27, 2015 6:54 pm

ISIS: An Inside Job?
You could say that

by Justin Raimondo, May 27, 2015

When Ivy Ziedrich, a nineteen-year-old college student, approached Jeb Bush on the campaign trail and zinged him with “Your brother created ISIS!” the media ate it up and the video went viral. Ms. Ziedrich, a member of the College Democrats, talks very fast, and she managed to utter the following diatribe before Jeb could get in a word edgewise:

“You stated that ISIS was created because we don’t have enough presence and we’ve been pulling out of the Middle East. However, the threat of ISIS was created by the Iraqi coalition authority, which ousted the entire government of Iraq. It was when 30,000 individuals who are part of the Iraqi military were forced out. They had no employment, they had no income, yet they were left with access to all the same arms and weapons. Your brother created ISIS!”

Poor Jeb! Being even less informed than his ambusher, he could only “respectfully disagree” and reiterate the neocon party line: if only we’d kept more troops in longer ISIS wouldn’t have coalesced. “You can rewrite history all you want,” he said, with a sigh, “but the simple fact is we’re in a much more unstable place because America pulled back.”

The media homed in on this incident because they’re still blaming Bush and the Republicans for the Iraq war, while ignoring the key role played by Democrats – Hillary Clinton and her husband come to mind – in ginning up that disaster. So in that sense Jeb is correct when he says they’re rewriting history, albeit not quite in the way he imagines.

Ms. Diedrich is wrong about ISIS: the idea that its foot soldiers are mostly former members of the Iraqi military is unlikely, although there are some former officers in the higher echelons. The vast majority of its fighters have been recruited from throughout the Middle East (and Europe) from the ranks of radical Islamists. More importantly, the Islamic State metastasized in Syria, not Iraq, and this is the key in assigning responsibility.

While the Bush administration made plenty of noises about going into Syria, this turned out to be mostly bluster. It took the Obama administration to launch this folly, and they did it by creating a proxy army, the “moderate” Islamists of the Free Syrian Army, ostensibly in order to overthrow Syrian despot Bashar al-Assad. A newly revealed classified document uncovered by Judicial Watch gives us a glimpse into how this effort was inextricably intertwined with the real history and origins of the Islamic State (formerly known as ISIS).

A Defense Intelligence Agency analysis of the Syrian civil war, dated August 12, 2012, starts out by drawing the battle lines, noting that the “major forces driving the insurgency” are “the Salafists, the Muslim Brotherhood, and AQI [al-Qaeda in Iraq]” and are being supported by “the West, Gulf countries, and Turkey.” Russia, Iran, and China are said to support the Assad regime. The war won’t unseat Assad, but will develop, predicts the memo, into a “proxy war.” In order for the West to win that war, the author recommends setting up “safe havens under international sheltering, similar to what transpired in Libya when Benghazi was chosen as the command center for the temporary government.”

Safe havens for al-Qaeda and its allies – just what the doctor ordered!

In a matter-of-fact tone, the memo projects the establishment of “an Islamic State through its union with other terrorist organizations in Iraq and Syria.” While positing that this could endanger the unity of Iraq, the memo goes on to say that this project is supported by “Western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey,” and makes this alarmingly prescient prediction:

“… [T]here is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist Principality in eastern Syria (Hasaka and Der Zor), and this is exactly what the supporting powers to the opposition want, in order to isolate the Syrian regime, which is considered the strategic depth of the Shia expansion (Iraq and Iran).”

Such a development would create “the ideal atmosphere for AQI to return to its old pockets in Mosul and Ramadi” – which is precisely what has happened. Mosul fell last year, and Ramadi was just taken, much to Washington’s consternation.

Far from being taken by surprise, the rise of the Islamic State was anticipated – and facilitated – by this administration. Critics of our Syria policy, including this writer, have been saying this for quite some time, but this DIA memo documents and confirms it for the first time.

The policy of the Obama administration, and particularly Hillary Clinton’s State Department, was – and still is – regime change in Syria. This overrode all other considerations. We armed, trained, and “vetted” the Syrian rebels, even as we looked the other way while the Saudis and the Gulf sheikdoms funded groups like al-Nusra and al-Qaeda affiliates who wouldn’t pass muster. And our “moderates” quickly passed into the ranks of the outfront terrorists, complete with the weapons we’d provided.

This crazy policy was an extension of our regime change operation in Libya, a.k.a. “Hillary’s War,” where the US – “leading from behind” – and a coalition of our Western allies and the Gulf protectorates overthrew Muammar Qaddafi. There, too, we empowered radical Islamists with links to al-Qaeda affiliates – and then used them to ship weapons to their Syrian brothers, as another document uncovered by Judicial Watch shows.

It seems Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) wasn’t too far off the mark when he asked then Secretary of State Clinton what she knew about arms shipments from Benghazi to the Syrian rebels. Here’s the exchange:

“PAUL: My question is, is the U.S. involved with any procuring of weapons, transfer of weapons, buying, selling, anyhow transferring weapons to Turkey out of Libya?

CLINTON: To Turkey? I will have to take that question for the record no one has ever asked me.

PAUL: It has been in news reports that ships have been leaving from Libya and they might have weapons. What I would like to know, is the annex that was close by [in Benghazi]. Were they involved with procuring, buying, selling, obtaining weapons, and were any of these weapons being transferred to other countries – to any countries, Turkey included.

CLINTON: Senator, you’ll have to direct that question to the agency that ran the annex. I will see what information is available. I do not know. I do not have information on that.”

Sen. Paul was righter than he knew: not only were the arms shipments going to Turkey, and then on to the rebels, but, as Judicial Watch discovered, they were also going directly to Syria.

The divisions in the administration over what to do – or not to do – in Syria came out in a 2013 Senate hearing in which then CIA director Leon Panetta admitted to Sen. John McCain that he, the Joint Chiefs, then CIA chief Gen. David Petraeus, and Secretary Clinton had all supported a plan to arm the Syrian rebels, which was vetoed by the White House. Yet those arms shipments made it from Benghazi to Syria, leaving port in late August, 2012 – shortly before Ambassador Chris Stevens was killed in an assault on what appears to have been a CIA redoubt, set up near the US consulate.

What was that spook outpost up to? Was Ambassador Stevens involved in facilitating that shipment? (One of his last meetings was with Mahmoud Mufti, the owner of a shipping company.) In short, did the Clinton-Petraeus-Panetta team do an end run around the White House, setting up a clandestine arms shipment operation that funneled Qaddafi’s arsenal to their Syrian proxies?

We don’t know the answer to these questions, of course, but one wonders: why did Secretary Clinton insist on keeping the Benghazi “consulate” – really a cover for a CIA operation – open despite repeated warnings about the lack of security?

“Your brother created ISIS!” Well, not quite. While it’s true that ISIS would never have succeeded in setting up an Islamic State in the heart of the Levant if we hadn’t gone to war in Iraq, the real parents of this mutant offspring of American policymakers are Hillary Clinton and her co-thinkers in the Obama administration. So intent were they on overthrowing Assad that they funded and armed our mortal enemies.

This whole episode dramatizes, in the most vivid way imaginable, the principle of “blowback” in the conduct of foreign affairs. US intervention in the internal politics of other nations leads, inevitably, to unforeseen consequences. The problem we sought to solve worsens – and new problems, often on a much larger scale, raise their heads.

Yet the policymakers responsible for this fiasco will never change: they believe they can centrally plan the transformation of entire nations from one social system to another and control how complex societies react to their efforts at social engineering. They really think they can run the world. Each time they fail they attribute it to a reluctant American public, or a lack of funding, or some other factor that somehow interferes with the proper application of their omniscience.

They never learn.
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They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu May 28, 2015 2:46 am

This whole episode dramatizes, in the most vivid way imaginable, the principle of “blowback” in the conduct of foreign affairs. US intervention in the internal politics of other nations leads, inevitably, to unforeseen consequences. The problem we sought to solve worsens – and new problems, often on a much larger scale, raise their heads.

Yet the policymakers responsible for this fiasco will never change: they believe they can centrally plan the transformation of entire nations from one social system to another and control how complex societies react to their efforts at social engineering. They really think they can run the world. Each time they fail they attribute it to a reluctant American public, or a lack of funding, or some other factor that somehow interferes with the proper application of their omniscience.

They never learn.


Really? "Blowback"? "Unforeseen consequences"? Actually, it's Raimondo and his ilk who either are astoundingly mentally incompetent and incapable of learning, or determined to ensure that their audience is. None of this was unforeseen; every single thing we're witnessing today was predicted by the kind of real, conscientious analysts who never, ever get a hearing in either the left- or the right-sing media, no matter how many times they're proven right. Actually, it doesn't even take an analyst: just someone reasonably knowledgeable with half a brain and half a conscience.

Only when it's too late, and way, way too little, and the "mission" has largely been "accomplished" do we get treated to this display of hand-wringing designed not to change anything, but to maintain the illusion of opposition and bolster the writer's own credibility. It's called limited hangout, and once again truth is used as bait, so the readers swallow the much more important lies. The "blowback" lie, the "unforeseen consequences" lie, the incompetence lie, i.e. "ooops". Or the lie that this or that Republican or Democrat politician did it. Again and again and again, while the satisfied planners keep putting little check-marks next to item after item on their to-do list.

Nobody's panicking in the boardroom. On the contrary: smiles and champagne all around.
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby Nordic » Thu May 28, 2015 4:42 am

Yeah, I usually like Raimondo but he's way off here. I mean, what part of "proxy" is he not understanding?

ISIS is literally created by the US and its closest crony nations and is working for them. Directly.

Pathetic that even someone as astute as Raimondo doesn't want to say this out loud. It's like he has a fear of being labelled a "conspiracy theorist" or something. A desire to be "mainstream".
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby 82_28 » Thu May 28, 2015 5:43 am

What's with the fear of being a "CT"? I don't even consider myself "one". I prefer realist. I didn't make this shit up. "They" did. I just call this shit as it lays in the same way I did so as a kid about other shit. Even in the "olden days" of checking out anti-war.com on a daily basis, I never much cared for Raimondo for some reason. I appreciated his anti-war stance for sure. But he was no Jeffro Wells!
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri May 29, 2015 10:22 am

In a nutshell:

Image

Translation:

1) The boss of Daesh ("ISIS")

2) The boss of the boss of Daesh

3) The boss of the boss of the boss of Daesh

4) The boss of the boss of the boss of the boss of Daesh.
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby semper occultus » Sun May 31, 2015 3:42 pm

......seems it was all just a bit of a slip-up...

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... group.html
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby Nordic » Sun May 31, 2015 4:29 pm

The jail. Nice place to recruit some proxy players. "hey, who's bored and needs something to do?! Come with me. Oh, and you might get a new Toyota pickup truck if you play along!"
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby redsock » Sun May 31, 2015 5:14 pm

From the article:

"Though it seemed like a good idea at the time to keep radicals together the same way the US keeps members of the same gangs together in prisons, it brought disaster later on." :tongout
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Re: Your Take On The ISIS Phenomenon

Postby AlicetheKurious » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:41 am

:tongout
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*

Postby IanEye » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:29 pm





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