JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Sounder » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:47 am

Wombat wrote...
Right, and who wants to watch Youtube videos exposing ... three dimensional chess?

People want linear narratives and obvious bad guys. The notion of systemic problems is uncomfortable, since that means we need to change, rather than just basking in the luxury of complaining about...well, obvious bad guys.


This is a good point. At the same time knowing about particulars is needed if one is to form a picture of our systemic problems.

And if it's just complaining, and it's not, at least it's about more than the activities of foot soldiers.

The horrifying truth is that anyone with a few billion dollars can enter the game and the exact same problems start all over again.


(you and most other folk seem to believe these issues derive from human nature and cannot therefor be changed, while my opinion is that we are dealing with human habit that can be changed.)

Yes and those men have great interest in maintaining the same systemic problems that generated their first billions.

It is much more comforting to believe that if we could merely get rid of Those Bad Men, everything would improve.


No, the ‘project’ is to identify the nature of our systemic problems, with a start, by analyzing the actions of those that best monetize our collective problems.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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JFK to Je suis Charlie

Postby MinM » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:15 am

The one shooter escaping from Paris to Syria sounds like the plan to have Oswald flee from Dallas to Cuba.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby BrandonD » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:32 am

Wombaticus Rex » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:04 pm wrote:
slimmouse » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:52 am wrote:Its just the totally uneccesary, shitty state of affairs around the world that really pisses me off.


I used to see things the same way. I certainly couldn't point to what changed my mind, but the past few hundred history hardcovers probably had someone to do with it.

Now, "shitty" I will agree with, no hesitation. Shitty indeed.

But "un-necessary," that I'm far less certain about. My misgivings are a multi-layered inter-disciplinary clusterfuck, but that recent piece I posted here, Meditations on Moloch, did a startlingly good job outlining my precise train of thought.

As always, I recommend Howard Bloom's best book, "The Lucifer Principle." I don't think that Earth problems are the result of an evil cabal because the facts as I understand them will not allow me to entertain that notion.

We are the problem - you, me, everybody.


I suspect that the POV being espoused here, "we are the problem" (ie the secular man's original sin), has a particular appeal to intellectuals who've lived long enough to see the world not improving in any significant way. The negative aspects of human nature are certainly a part of the story, maybe even a significant part, but to ascribe our current situation entirely to that is too simplistic and reductionist IMO.

In my opinion, there is a larger and less user-friendly story underlying the culturally palatable cover story of talking monkeys bouncing around Newtonian space, just being evil. The current state of affairs in the world is in some manner being guided and managed by a control system of some sort (a la Jacques Valee). For me this premise is actually self-evident, but I think that there also exists more worldly evidence to support it, as well as evidence supporting the premise that powerful people have gone, and are still going, to great lengths to suppress the dissemination of knowledge of this control system.

The problem that most people have with this premise is generally the same problem people have with God, and that problem is anthropomorphizing an intelligence that sits in a superior position.

The analogy of a scientist and rats in a lab comes to mind. The values and goals of the control system do not necessarily coincide with the values and goals of the subjects.

I am open to being wrong, I just felt inclined to propose an alternate POV.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:41 am

There is no control system powerful enough to control humans without their a acquiescence on some level.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:44 am

Not to disagree (or agree for that matter,) with your idea/alternative POV. Even a control system capable of anticipating and catering to your or my responses is not perfect, and then there are random events that are beyond control, by definition.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby BrandonD » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:11 am

Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:44 am wrote:Not to disagree (or agree for that matter,) with your idea/alternative POV. Even a control system capable of anticipating and catering to your or my responses is not perfect, and then there are random events that are beyond control, by definition.


Yes, I totally agree with you on both your comments.

By "control system" I don't mean to imply a sort of absolute control. I would call it something like a powerful influencing factor, employed for some specific purpose that we can't see. Its power comes from the fact that it is somehow in a superior position to the general population of humanity with regard to certain pieces of knowledge or awareness, but this certainly wouldn't mean that it has any sort of absolute control over our circumstances.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Sounder » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:42 am

Wombat wrote...
I don't think that Earth problems are the result of an evil cabal because the facts as I understand them will not allow me to entertain that notion.


I will read the Moloch thread more closely to try to get a better sense of the facts as you understand them. Of course Earth problems are not the result of an evil cabal, but the cabal and the problems may still be symbiotic or co-incident and feeding off of each other.

So for instance, if intellectuals create structures that put ‘god’ far away, the basis is created for a vertical authority distribution system. We then can be made to feel as if we are ‘sinners’, rather than feeling ‘god’ imminent in all things at all times.

Joe wrote...
There is no control system powerful enough to control humans without their acquiescence on some level.

Quite right, but then again the need for social inclusion, being pretty much universal, makes acquiescence a fact of life rather than a fault or failing.

Our criteria for understanding (social model) have been predicated on a split in reality for quite some time now.

The PTMB* have learned over time how to engineer that split, such that the cost of reconciling ones cognitive dissonance becomes too high for most people to bear.

*Powers that make believe

Our split model validates polarized thinking and the sociopath in all of us. Damn, the rest of this add on was lost to the bit faeries. NBD.
Last edited by Sounder on Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:04 am

Sounder you can choose what social system you live in and what you acquiesce to. The world is still big enough. You may have to make compromises and sacrifice things you might otherwise want or need. There is at least one person in the US who lives by dumpster diving - homeless, but never lacking for material necessities. Shelter is the biggest problem, but its not insurmountable. I saw the guy interviewed on TV - well groomed, clean and presentable by straight world standards - he lamented that so few other homeless people lived like him. Possibly a reflection on the issues surrounding homelessness, hopelessness and mental illness.

There's a joke about Breaking Bad set in Australia - guy gets cancer, goes to his doctor, gets treatment, lives happily ever after. End of story.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Sounder » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:57 am

Sounder you can choose what social system you live in and what you acquiesce to.


All social systems carry the shortcomings of the pretenses that build the system. While the notion may be overly broad, my use of 'social system' in this context refers to all of humanity. I feel justified in this because, too me, both the enforcers and the rebels are working with a split model of reality.

As to what we acquiesce too, most of that business is done at sub and unconscious levels. We may even claim, with self righteous indignation, that we do not acquiesce. But the deed has already been done. And now we are left with spending our time denying the facts so that self-identity might be protected.

A basic trick of the control system is to get folk to 'know' a thing consciously and have it be totally at odds with ones sub-conscious 'knowing'.

This can produce a sort of brain freeze up.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby BrandonD » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:18 am

Sounder » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:57 am wrote:
A basic trick of the control system is to get folk to 'know' a thing consciously and have it be totally at odds with ones sub-conscious 'knowing'.

This can produce a sort of brain freeze up.


That's been my observation also. It is like a Pavlovian trick - give people a information that conflicts with a sub-conscious knowing (ie 9/11), socially punish those who align with their subconscious knowing and socially reward those who align with the false information.

The result seems to be that a significant portion of people will abandon their own "internal navigation system" and accept this false information. But it is like a deal with the devil, after having "disconnected" from their own navigation system to some degree they become very susceptible to further manipulations. Greater and more divergent pieces of information can then be "infiltrated", and the problem grows exponentially.

I picture a person on train tracks. He is hit with greater and greater bumps, until finally he is dislodged from the tracks and placed on new tracks, which lead to a totally different destination.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby stefano » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:37 am

Thanks all - good thread. I tend to agree with Wombat. We all want to be safe from worry and think we'll be safe (and our kids will have a good chance at it) if we have enough money, but of course you never have enough money to feel safe. It's true that it's possible to change your mind about that but it's hard work, and not enough people make that change to alter the overall dynamic. Especially with demographics looking the way they do. If you have two kids and you want them to be a bit better off than you, materially, then you are wishing for endless growth.

I'll read through the Moloch thread too, looks good.

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:06 pm wrote:Still, the Treaty of Versailles was too important and too multi-polar to credibly assert it was the work of "the Dulles brothers," any more than the creation of the OSS was.

My understanding is that the Americans were not particularly influential at the table. Clemenceau and Poincaré pushed hardest for the ruinous reparations, and for the sake of having a new strong trading partner on the continent, Lloyd George sided with them over the objections of, most notably, Jan Smuts and John Maynard Keynes (although all the Dominion delegates ended up signing for the sake of imperial unity).
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby slimmouse » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:47 am

Thanks for the info fellas, all of you.

Probably a good starting point for this question

What happened in the 20 years that followed?

Edited to add.

Quick question for Wombaticus.

Did the Dulles Bros have any business interests in what happened in Nazi Germany after WWI ?

They do of course appear as intermediaries at the end of the next contrived dust up.

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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:59 pm

slimmouse » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:47 am wrote:Did the Dulles Bros have any business interests in what happened in Nazi Germany after WWI ?


Not really, but their employers certainly did.

I don't think that's a merely semantic distinction.

I think this gentleman right here is probably the thread you want to tug on in this regard, rather than The Brothers Dulles.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:04 am

I loved the part of the documentary where the narrator explains how Mr Rogers, before he was America's beloved kid show host, was one of the 27 sharpshooters at Dealy Plaza.

Well, this "documentary" get's an A for originality as a free form scat jam, even if virtually every "fact" is made up. The only facts I could verify was that JFK was president at one time and assassinated, and
Germany was in World War 2.

But seriously, for the ocean of disinformation it is always good to see the topic of American corporations and powerful being such a huge backbone to Hitler and the Nazi war machine. It's the most bizarre thing on earth
how there can exist anti Semitic/Nazi apologist conspiracy theorists. The Nazis were by definition the ultimate illuminati conspiracy(occult elite with a master plan) Holocaust denial is the biggest joke since it was the Nazis who
kept extrordinary record of how many they killed. Hitler would be offended at Holocaust deniers.

The last 45 minutes tho of the "film" is pretty worthless. Calling Woolwich a "hoax", calling Loose Change a landmark event and giving credence to Ted Gunderson is laughable. Oh and the Bush was behind 9/11 joke.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:11 am

82_28 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:41 pm wrote:Agreed, Wombat. Because here I sit. However I want to echo the fact (since I relented and watched the whole thing last night) that this video is quite good. It gave me the chills a few times. The chills, because it covered ideas I had already independently thought of myself by just the mental act of extrapolation. It begins with when I realized some twenty years ago that hitler was a drama queen and not "real". I think it all came about when I read the Rise and Fall.

I believe I have admitted here that I was one of the first people to espouse the theory that (back then, all I had to go on) that American tycoons funded both sides of the "war" in collusion with other international firms. To this day it's why I basically always put "war" in quotes. I was roundly ridiculed at metafilter for bringing up such an idea god, jesus 15 years ago -- it's been that long(?). Now there is no doubt and nobody will give you an argument. Back then it was hella controversial. I was brought to tears in arguments about this bullshit because I had no other way to express myself about how much all "wars" are in fact bullshit. I would literally cry to people I disagreed with. I fucking don't know where I got it from, but I got it good. This isn't about me and I am not trying to "steal the spotlight", I am just saying that it was easy to read the tea leaves, as it were. All I can write is from being an armchair historian and leftist/anarchist that wishes no harm on any entity in any capacity under any terms.



I think a lot of the mad men truly did have some sort of obsession against communism as much as some of it may have been a game. The movie paints every general, politician, etc as one cohesive borg like creation, not even compartmentalized. I believe the Cuban missile crisis to have been a real event that could have gone very very badly.

One thing not explained though, why did the puppet masters allow America, UK and Russia to defeat the Nazis? Again I definitely believe in the thrust of captains of industry, and some of the powerful and wealthy secretly and not so secretly behind Hitler...but this documentary over simplifies things to a muddled point. I also question the veracity of the majority of the facts posted :)
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